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Can we please put a hard damage cap on true damage champions?

LatetotheRace··28 votes·12,050 views

Champions like Vayne and Master Yi are supposed to have true damage to really be able to tank bust and add further damage to their ability to kill targets overall. And as a tank main, I'm okay with this, it gets damn near impossible to kill a full built tank at times and especially if they get ahead. NOW! That being said, I do not believe that a champions main damage output should EVER be true damage, EVER. So when I end up building 300 armor and 6000 health the death recap should never show that true damage was over 40, 50, or even 60% of the damage dealt.

My proposal is that true damage on TD sustain champions should never be able to exceed 2x the combined damage dealt from all other sources. (Auto attacks included.) This way it's still very much powerful as it should be against tanks, but it prevents vayne from doing 6000 damage in less than 10 autos. And master yi can't just rely on Attack Speed builds and build little to no AD.

The Attack speed on-hit abuse from rageblade needs to end, and since we can't get rid of phantom hits I would argue that this limit would be reasonable to say the least.

Please note that champions like Camille, Darius, Zoe would not be subject to this limitation as they rely on either one specific source of it (EX: Zoe E and Camille Q) or in Darius case it's his entire identity in the form of the rare pentadunk. Furthermore this wouldn't effect conqueror at all, as it's damage will never exceed or even reasonably reach the limit set in place.

40 Comments

Warpes19 votes

No because then it wouldn't be true dmg lelelelelelelelellelellelelelle

-what i imagine riot's actual response would be

TengenToppaGnar8 votes

Somewhat blind support, but I get what you're saying. Vayne is a rather OP champion to begin with, so this could theoretically also balance her. Need more hard core math support. Though, on the topic of Darius, just nerf the damage his Passive does in general without the double damage bull for his ultimate. I seriously can't stand Darius' passive damage.

Ragnaveil2 votes

I kinda wonder if they could make his bleed debuff enemies and make their damage go down by a % instead of being this obnoxious bleed effect. Per stack by the way.

TengenToppaGnar1 votes

{quoted}

I kinda wonder if they could make his bleed debuff enemies and make their damage go down by a % instead of being this obnoxious bleed effect. Per stack by the way.

Anything would be better than getting screwed by having 5 stacks on yourself and losing a disgraceful 300+HP early game on any champion. Like fuuuuuu you gotta be kitten me. That's too much "free" damage when coupled with the AAs, and a far too easily accessed hit from his Q, let alone post level 2 or 3 with that massive! 90%!? 1 second or not slow, wtf Riot, and then another slow when he drags your ass back for 40%, again 1 second. Very few champs can deal with him early, let alone keep their distance and still farm.

The thigh guy8 votes

Oh don’t forgot fiora ability to deal 108% max hp true damage.

Sewer Side4 votes

Yeah, if she builds like a moron and blows up before completing a Q-dash

The thigh guy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sewer Side,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5vwvykI2,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2019-05-06T01:51:19.718+0000)

Yeah, if she builds like a moron and blows up before completing a Q-dash

She crests 400 ad in her average build without sacrificing any tankiness due to over over stated bruiser items are. You do realize that right?

Not to mention a decent amount of the time she goes grasp. So she gets free tanks stats.

And if she doesn’t she goes conquerer. So she needs less ad and gets tankier with her items.

Or she’s stupid and goes klepto and trolls.

Sewer Side3 votes

Total AD =/= bonus AD.

For Fiora to do your hypothetical 108% max HP (assuming you’ve ulted your target and procced all 4 vitals), she would need over 500 bonus AD.

Highest AD item caps at 80 bonus AD. Which are pure offense items with little to no defense

80*5 = 400 bonus AD, so she’d still needs Infernal Dragons and Elixirs to get to your hyperbolic situation.

That is not a realistic thing to be complaining about. Especially when she starts buying Cleaver (40AD) and resistance items to survive.

The thigh guy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sewer Side,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5vwvykI2,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-06T07:41:13.485+0000)

Total AD =/= bonus AD.

For Fiora to do your hypothetical 108% max HP (assuming you’ve ulted your target and procced all 4 vitals), she would need over 500 bonus AD.

Highest AD item caps at 80 bonus AD. Which are pure offense items with little to no defense

80*5 = 400 bonus AD, so she’d still needs Infernal Dragons and Elixirs to get to your hyperbolic situation.

That is not a realistic thing to be complaining about. Especially when she starts buying Cleaver (40AD) and resistance items to survive.

Now account for the fact that she procs 5 vitals. Because In this situation she acts as such.

  1. Q procs the first vital
  2. Ults
  3. Auto attack proc the second
  4. Auto reset proc the third
  5. Q through enemy to proc 4th vital
  6. Hydra active aa reset to proc 5th vital.

So she needs substantially less ad with the 5th vital (which she can easily get) is put into play.

Also conquerer. And ad runes. And everything ever to do with domination tree and the stupid amount of adaptive force it gives.

LatetotheRace1 votes

Hypothetically yeah, she'd be damn near ceramic pot status, but against a low damage tank it really wouldn't matter to her at all.

haaaaaaalp4 votes

I mean you can but the cap you propose won't do much. Even with all the talks about true damage, olaf still outpaces every champion in terms of true damage done every game. You can put the true damage cap as low as 33% of all damage and it won't make a difference because no champion besides olaf will ever come close to that mark. Fiora averages the second highest true damage and hers is around 25% of her damage.

Wimbledofy1 votes

Is that damage including the damage he does to himself when he presses E? I don't play olaf a lot but of the times I've played him I'd never expect his E to be that high of a % of damage source.

haaaaaaalp1 votes

{quoted}

Is that damage including the damage he does to himself when he presses E? I don't play olaf a lot but of the times I've played him I'd never expect his E to be that high of a % of damage source.

No, that is all sources so includes conqueror which most olafs are running.

LatetotheRace1 votes

Vayne's Damage output will often break down into Bork (5-7%) Tumble (5-10%) Basic attacks (15-20%) Silver Bolts (40-62%) with of course non-100% outcomes possible in the recap. It really REALLY does get out of hand sometimes, and this is for those times. Not for every game, because you're right it doesn't usually get that high.

Verxint3 votes

When the death recap shows 60% as true damage it's usually wrong. Often if an attack does any true damage it reports all the damage done as true instead of just the true portion.

LatetotheRace1 votes

silver bolts does true damage. Period. So this isn't the case here.

Verxint1 votes

Yes, but it triggers on an autoattack that isn't all true damage. What I'm saying is that if Vayne hits you, does 200 physical, and procs Silver Bolts, the death recap often seems to report that 200 physical damage as true damage. I've had multiple cases of dying to a Vayne that only got one proc off yet it said she did way more true damage than she possibly could off.

LatetotheRace1 votes

Death recap separates the two. (as in the examples I use in OP, it shows both as separate sources) soooooooooooo

Verxint1 votes

It's supposed to separate the two. I've seen instances where it clearly didn't, and considering how absolutely bug-ridden it is, it's not a stretch to say that damage type could be reported incorrectly.

LatetotheRace1 votes

Ok BUT I've watched back enough, and I damn well mean ENOUGH fucking instances of this and it often does reach 50-60%.

RavenMagus2 votes

So when I end up building 300 armor and 6000 health the death recap should never show that true damage was over 40, 50, or even 60% of the damage dealt.

So how would we, as squishy carries, ever be supposed to kill you then?

Do you just want to be invincible forever while probably still 100-0 killing us with your own abilities? That's not very fair from our viewpoint, either.

Nyarlathοtep15 votes

{quoted}

So how would we, as squishy carries, ever be supposed to kill you then?

Do you just want to be invincible forever while probably still 100-0 killing us with your own abilities? That's not very fair from our viewpoint, either.

Armour pen exists you know.

LatetotheRace3 votes

Shh, he doesn't know.

LordGeovanni1 votes

Armor pen is broken

Critmaster Garen8 votes

{quoted}

So how would we, as squishy carries, ever be supposed to kill you then?

this argument is braindead. there is an in between between never being able to kill a tank or fighter, and downright bursting a 4000 health 300 armor target.

i dont agree with op to be honest. this is way too convoluted of a method to balance the game.

you could instead just tune down true damage on the champions youre talking about instead and rework some aspects of their kit.

a lot of people disagree with me on Fiora but i think the approach of balancing true damage on her by tieing it to a mechanic that her opponent can directly play around is the best way to do it. on paper she deals as much true damage as vayne or yi, but youre never just completely fucked against her and have the chance to outplay her by yourself by denying her hits on your vitals. (yes, even if its hard because shes mobile you still have the potential to deny vitals and the true damage entirely)

vayne 100% needs the same treatment. so instead of counterplay in itemization, the true damage has mechanical counterplay. currently her entire kit doesnt give you a hook to outplay her.

yi bothers me to a much lesser degree, since he very rarely gets into a position where he gets THAT far ahead. theoretically the counter itemization to him is health, but rageblade can make his true damage so high, that it doesnt seem to make a difference anymore. maybe the upcoming rageblade nerf will slow the procs down enough again for it to make 4000 healh over 2000 health more than a 1 second difference. but like i said, its almost a miracle to see a yi to get to that point. as a squishy melee champion hes also very easily shut down even if he does. vayne gets there almost every game.

LatetotheRace2 votes

I 100% agree that this solution is beyond too complicated and even downright unnecessarily layered "balancing" choice. But riot has been pretty intent with letting the abuse between on-hit true damage X Phantom hits go on. So think of this as a safety net of sorts to never let riots stupid get too out of hand. -shrug-

Ackelope1 votes

another problem with building health vs yi is that, while it works great vs his great kit, he builds bork and bloodrazor most of the time, which kinda hard counters building health.

at least you can build armor for those, but then you run into the problem of building armor into his true damage. mildly irksome.

FSRER1 votes

You can't build anything to yi, your only solution is to stun him but even for that, riot has invented a braindead passive on his q which whenever he auto attacks he gets 1 FUCKIN SECOND LESS CD, on a champ that goes full attack speed and that allows him to do 5 q in 3 seconds leaving no counterplay whatsoever, especially in a teamfight. THANKS RIOT GAMES FOR NERFING HIM AFTER 3 YEARS US CALLING YOU OUT ON THAT

Bob the Toastr7 votes

{quoted}

So how would we, as squishy carries, ever be supposed to kill you then?

Do you just want to be invincible forever while probably still 100-0 killing us with your own abilities? That's not very fair from our viewpoint, either.

Seems like almost every other adc can still manage to kill tanks without having percent max health true damage like vayne does. You can get a bork and/or up to 59% armor pen with LDR and Black Cleaver. Granted, you would have to sacrifice crit if you want all 3, but it's a fair tradeoff for tank shredding capabilities.

BenLegend4431 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bob the Toastr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5vwvykI2,comment-id=00020002,timestamp=2019-05-05T22:56:12.465+0000)

Seems like almost every other adc can still manage to kill tanks without having percent max health true damage like vayne does. You can get a bork and/or up to 59% armor pen with LDR and Black Cleaver. Granted, you would have to sacrifice crit if you want all 3, but it's a fair tradeoff for tank shredding capabilities.

The second someone builds Tabi, Caitlyn does 200 per hit with headshot crit(I'm serious, I've actually seen this).

LatetotheRace2 votes

Provided you place yourself even decently well in fights then theres not much I can do to really get to you. Plus you shouldn't be able to kill a 6k health mega tank in roughly 4-5 seconds.

WAZZZUP5004 votes

item 3033 item 3036 item 3153 item 3071 item 3135 item 3165 item 3142 item 3814 item 3147 item 3020

What's an armor? What's a magic resist?

Edit: Not all carries have true damage (Kaisa Tristana to name a couple), and can still delete tanks if they don't get cc'd like a dummy

LordGeovanni2 votes

you would kite and deal damage until they're dead with Front liners peeling for you as the game was Originally designed.

Best Ekko NA2 votes

League of Legends in general needs hard damage caps on every ability, but they won't do it because they're too stubborn and will make some claim like: "we can always adjust the ability if we feel it's too strong", when in reality changing scalings and base numbers isn't the problem to begin with -- it's how hard champions can power spike that is the issue.

Sucction2 votes

To be fair though with Yi, his true damage isn't very high later on unless he does build AD.

It's got I believe 50 damage when maxed, and that's really not a lot to tanks with 3.5-4.5k health.

It could certainly use a cap, but he does have to build AD for it to hurt past 20 minutes.

U R Good At Game2 votes

Like someone else said, power of everything in league needs a cap or a diminishing returns. Forgetting true-damage there are way too many champion and item combos that just decimate things with little to no counter-play when ahead to where you would never be able to generate enough gold to counter-build them. You shouldn't need to build 4 items to wishtand one champion only to still get decimated by them.

Best Ekko NA1 votes

I've touched on this problem in the past by the way:

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/1IYxEoT6-the-real-problem-which-exists-in-league-of-legends

DorkunedAuras1 votes

Fun fact, Rageblade on the PBE is already phantom hitting every third attack instead of every other attack.

3TWarrior1 votes

as a note, the death recap never works right

true damage is excessive though

LordGeovanni1 votes

Tank busting isnt supposed to be a thing tanks are a class that by definition are supposed to be hard for EVERYONE to kill. Thats like adding a specific class to Damage sap, that damage saps adcs and mages until the point where their attack heal the enemy.

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