So the only way assasins become viable is if they abuse bruiser items ?

dominusx·Jan 20, 2017·44 votes·2,545 views

Was that the intention of the rework or something? is better a bruiser focused on tank stats is unplayable without bruiser items becomes useless as soon as people group unless he is 6-0by the time shaco highest winrate builds i think are hybrid mix with tankiness. like bruh.. Oh akali even tho underplayed goes a tanky build aswell . litterally you removed their instant burst whilist the role that counters them got major buffs and on top of that the role they are supposed to deal with kills em faster than they do. like bruhhhh

83 Comments

RalanrJan 20, 201717 votes

Or maybe damage in general is just so high that everyone needs a bunch of bruiser stats to do their job (and it's more noticeable on ADCs because they can't do that).

I'd really like it if 3K health wasn't the norm for fighters. Has it always been the norm?

Spaceman5pffJan 20, 20172 votes

At least now, toplane bruisers are building at least 1 damage item,

A while back in the toplane meta (think season 2), champions like Elise Renekton Riven would build ONLY tank items like item 3083 or item 3068 or Force of Nature and just beat on you for a while. In fact, Elise was notably more damage focused in her build than the others. She actually built item 3020 and maybe even a item 3070 sometimes.

In this Meta, Shyvana was the most damage oriented toplaner, being so bold as to buy item 3153 first item

NuparuJan 20, 20177 votes

...Riven?

Spaceman5pffJan 20, 20171 votes

Yep. For some time, she would be played toplane, building item 3083 into item 3068 with the occasional item 3022 or MAYBE Atmas Impaler.

PB4UAMEJan 20, 20172 votes

J4, Irelia, and Shy were the much bigger atmogs offenders, not to mention my personal favorites, Garen and Olaf.

AnidanJan 21, 20171 votes

We gonna forget old Season 2 Lee? He was able to use the Metagolem build just as well as they could.

Spaceman5pffJan 21, 20171 votes

Atmogs is another story for another time lol, especially since i made a point not to list them as atmogs offenders, even tho I did type the word atmas somewhere in that post

PB4UAMEJan 22, 20171 votes

Whenever you had anyone reliably buying warmogs, you had atmogs. Whenever you had people using FM you had fratmogs; anyone who was a bruiser/fighter/melee carry who bought the health item would get more out of atmas than almost any other damage item for its cost, as well as getting crit (more useful on some than others, but if you auto attack, like all of them do. . . ) and especially important, armor as well. Now you had mitigation to scale your health, your shields, and your hp regen (13hp/5 Riven, remember?).

Spaceman5pffJan 22, 20171 votes

My knowledge of the SoloQ meta pre season 4 is quite limited. And even then my knowledge of the SoloQ meta only really gets solid in season 5.

I started playing at the end of Season 3, and only know anything about the Pro scene then and earlier from watching loads of games from back then.

Hinagiku33Jan 20, 20171 votes

You're thinking of the Metagolem:

Triforce / Atma's Impaler / Warmog's Armor / Frozen Mallet

Triforce procs were the main source of damage, but also offered a little Attack Speed and some Critical Strike Chance to get decent DPS
Atma's Impaler gave Bonus AD based on Max Health while also having some Armor and Critical Strike Chance
Warmog's Armor gave huge flat Health (1380 when fully stacked I think) and solid Health Regen...which then meant more AD from Atma's
Frozen Mallet gave a nice slow on all basic attacks to keep people in your death zone while giving a huge amount of flat Health...which meant even more AD from Atma's

So you have tons of Health, some Armor, and tons of damage from Triforce procs and solid AD (plus the occasional Crit), on top of having a perma-slow and having room in your build for Merc Treads and Force of Nature to completely invalidate Mages and Supports. At full build, anyone like Garen that had inherent tankiness became unkillable even in a 1v5.

But Riven didn't use Metagolem. She went full glass cannon stacking nothing but Bloodthirsters and exploded people.

Spaceman5pffJan 21, 20171 votes

Except I am not thinking of the Metagolem. And Riven did not go glass cannon.

That being said, I got my seasons wrong, and I am thinking more of Season 3 than Season 2.

AptestJan 21, 20171 votes

where the hell did you manage to find a warmog-sunfire fulltank riven?

Spaceman5pffJan 21, 20171 votes

Watching ESL stream reruns of old pro games.

LovelleJan 20, 20173 votes

Not back when nearly every AD assassin/fighter rushed Brutalizer + Last Whisper it wasn't. It was pretty rare to see anyone build tanky back then, even immobile melees. Assassins (and mobile fighters like Lee/Riven) were probably at their best during that time period, and it was a dark time for tanks. Only tanks with %damage reduction in their kits could function reliably, but they still went down pretty quick.

Naturally, the response to this would be to just rush HP. Well Riot thought of that, which is why Botrk was insanely strong back then and the active had burst (it used to be Zed's precious). Even Quinn used to rush Ghostblade + Botrk, and it didn't matter what you built after that because you could kill anyone.

RalanrJan 20, 20172 votes

That sounds horrible.

LovelleJan 20, 20172 votes

It was, especially on Dominion, where (past a certain point) the meta was just to rush penetration and CDR.

Every single AD champion went Brutalizer + Last Whisper (Boots of Lucidity or Mercs)

Every single AP (including tanks) went Haunting Guise + Void Staff/Blackfire Torch (Boots of Lucidity or Sorcerers boots)

ADCs were in a similar situation as now, but flat penetration was less situational, so they had at least some early-mid presence, but they still died to everyone and everything. Personally, I think it's nice to see tanks perform well for a change. Lethality just needs to be tweaked so it can actually damage bruisers, then I think assassins will have room to improve.

Meep ManJan 20, 20172 votes

3K health for Bruisers has been the norm for a while unless you are a few notable ones that buy more or less, like Dr. Mundo and Volibear. Lane bullies back would rush Brutalizer, but those were the only big ones.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJan 20, 20177 votes

yet there are post after post that mage players want item 3155 item 3156 nerfed ... when they all build item 3157

PennsJan 20, 20175 votes

I assume thats because Maw is broken and Zhonyas isnt lul

Golden Tager XJan 20, 20175 votes

Zhonya's is the second most gamechanging item there is

HateDaddyJan 20, 201714 votes

{quoted}

Zhonya's is the second most gamechanging item there is

I'd argue it's the first but neck and neck with redemption currently

RavenMagusJan 20, 20177 votes

Well, the thing is, zhonyas actually has a fair amount of counterplay to the active still. You can dodge something, but you become a sitting duck, easy to hit with something else directly afterwards.

Meanwhile it has very shitty stats. Maw on the other hand - Maw doesn't allow you to dodge an ultimate, it allows you to simply tank it instead, and having a shield has no drawbacks at all unlike stasis.

Don't get me wrong, Zhonya's is still a fantastic item, but it's actually quite situational - much more situational than Maw (which is "the enemy team has any magic damage -> buy Maw").

Of course, Zhonya's is also better against other mages, while Maw does nothing against ADs.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJan 20, 20173 votes

if you look at some stats maw is the 84 th most popular item and has a win rate of like 57% and where as zhonya's is the 18th most popular item with the same win rate if not higher. i have already posted the stats and links in other threads with this information, every make in the game gets zhonya's and not every one gets a maw or hex drinker.

PennsJan 20, 20173 votes

Look at the most popular mages, Ziggs, Syndra, Ahri, Vol Koz, Ori,... none of them get a Zhonyas as core item. If they buy one, its usually their last item, but often they dont at all.

Ad champs, that arent Zed I guess, can still kill you with Zhonyas. Meanwhile there is 0 skill to Maw and it completely stops champs like Fizz from doing anything against you while still giving high damage, sustain in combat and cdr...

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJan 20, 20172 votes

you say that but the stats show that zhoynas is bought in nearly every game... so you would be wrong

http://www.elophant.com/league-of-legends/items/most-purchased http://www.elophant.com/league-of-legends/items/win-rate

item 3157 win rate is 57.83% and 18th in popularity while item 3156 win rate is 58.50% win rate and the 84th most popular item

PennsJan 20, 20174 votes

And why exactly do these stats even matter? http://champion.gg/statistics/#?roleSort=Middle&sortBy=general.playPercent&order=descend Show me 3 champs that build Zhonyas as anything other than their last item lol. Maw is just dumb, 0 skill to use and gives you over 1000-1200 effective HP vs magic damage mid game + life steal/spell vamp + a lot of damage.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJan 20, 20175 votes

these stats show that item 3157 is bought in nearly every game for ap mages and has a strong win rate when bought to ignore that and say item 3156 is broken cry cry cry and think that zhoyna's is ok is just dumb....

and maw cost more then hourglass and 70ap cdr and armor plus the active ( which is effective vs all damage/cc ) maw only has 50ad and only effective vs magic damage... but champs who have it can still die due to other forms of damage.

PennsJan 20, 20177 votes

The difference is that Zhonyas stuns the user so you can just wait lol, you cant do that with the shield that lasts 5 seconds. If there was an item that gave Maws stats and passive just with AP and armor, almost every mage would buy it over Zhonyas.

CatastropJan 21, 20172 votes

{quoted}

almost every mage would buy it over Zhonyas.

An arguement in futility Penns. AP players aren't allowed to talk balance about our own defensive itemization because everyone else knows best. You'd have better luck talking about how retarded Ahri is.

NineTailedMysticJan 21, 20171 votes

Zhonya's stats are garbage. I only ever buy the item if I need the active or armor, otherwise it's just slot inefficient and even then if I want only Armor I'd rather buy a full tank item.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJan 21, 20171 votes

yet you say that but the win % and popularity of it would disagree ...

70ap, 45armor 10% cdr and the active plus the ease of the build path ... all for 2900 would say other wise...

NineTailedMysticJan 21, 20171 votes

70 AP is awful. Remember when Riot buffed the 60 AP items like old Liandries because no one bought since it gave so little AP?

45 Armor won't make a difference outside of laning phase. You're still going to get 4 shot by the ADC mid-late game, you're still going to get annihilated by the Juggernaut or Assassin.

10% CDR is k but no Mana so you just run out of Mana.

The only redeeming feature the item has is the active which is what Riot intended.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJan 21, 20171 votes

that 45 armor dont include scaling armor per lvl you get in game plus armor runes... a champ like lux at lvl 18 with 9 flat armor runes and hourglass and her scaling ends up with 87+9+45 for a total of 141 armor

NineTailedMysticJan 21, 20171 votes

Except Scaling HP yellows are way better than Armor yellows 80% of the time. Most mids get about 70-85 base Armor at level 18. So even with Armor yellows that's only 54 Armor with no health to back it up, giving you 124-139 total Armor which is nothing in this state of the game.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJan 21, 20171 votes

and what MR and Hp do adcs build ?

NineTailedMysticJan 21, 20171 votes

Maw of Malmortius, Mercurial Scimitar, Black Cleaver, Guardian Angel, Frozen Mallet, Phantom Dancer %DR, Sterak's Gage.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJan 21, 20172 votes

lol what adc gets mallet? really.... and sterak's gage was gutted shortly after it came out... and only worth vs champs who do burst damage or true damage and no adcs get it

most adcs dont utilize black cleaver... and PD has no MR or HP , however it does provide soem damage reduction but its best for dueling vs other duelist.

CatastropJan 21, 20171 votes

That's because it's really only bought for one of two reasons; A. To cap out on CDR B. There's nothing else to build.

Maw on the other hand isn't built as often because there are other options.

Unlike Hourglass, it has to compete with two other AD/MR items, which will obviously drop the buy rate of the item by a sizeable(apparently the "correct" way to spell this is "sizable" lmao) amount since you're going to build the one that most suits your situation.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJan 21, 20172 votes

im not an advocate of either item... my point the two items are on par with each other.... all things considered. is in theory they are both good at what they do and need to accomplish by buying the item.

LooknookJan 20, 20175 votes

While not all mages build the issue mage players have is that Zhonyas is the only item they have to counter AD, while AD has 3 of varying effectiveness but still 3 nonetheless.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJan 20, 20171 votes

but thats not true... there are lots of armor items to have defense vs ad... but no one wants them cuz they dont off damage

they want their cake and to eat it too... and flat armor alot of the times isnt enough usually if youre vs something that is that fed and blows you up you want something that has HP with armor because they both make each other more effective. and i know the argument of well i need more damage is gonna cross your mind (if playing mages) but heres the thing... if you have an item let say like item 3143 and you can survive longer and not instantly die in fights... you will make up for that lost 70ip from zhonya's by being able to get more damage out as you are alive longer.

LooknookJan 20, 20171 votes

But it is true, AD players have Edge of Night, Mercurial Scimitar and Maw of Malmortis. All of those give Magic Resist and AD. Items that give Armor and AP are limited to Zhonyas and Zeke's Harbinger. Zeke's is a support item that not even supports use. There are other AP Armor items but they aren't on summoners rift. Health and Armor together is great and all but, why does AD get more options for AD MR than Mages get AP AR? That is the issue

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJan 21, 20171 votes

that is an issue with itemization in the game ... not an issue with either item... not the same issue. but there is no armor /ad items in the game just as a point.... there are plenty of ap/hp items with great passives

NineTailedMysticJan 21, 20171 votes

RoA = Niche, Rylai's = nerfed to oblivion, Liandrie's = incredibly nice with a counter intuitive passive.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJan 21, 20171 votes

rylais wasnt nerfed to oblivion its just not broken any more... the hp and the amount of ap you get plus the passive is still strong... roa is very strong... but more for bruiser type of ap champs.... and how is the passive on landry's counter intuitive

NineTailedMysticJan 21, 20173 votes

they want their cake and to eat it too

I despise this analogy. What is the purpose of having a cake if you can't eat it? How can you eat a cake if you don't have it?

SkelenthJan 20, 20176 votes

I think the problem is just that bruisers are inherently stronger than assassins because of their innate durability, whereas assassins have to rely on escapes. Assassins still do what they do, tanky fighters just do it more reliable

AhristocatsJan 20, 201721 votes

assassins used to have an advantage when played full ad/ap they killed you in 0.5 sec

riot removed this no point in playing assassins anymore, WE ALL KNEW that they would become bruisers

DragonSheaJan 20, 20174 votes

If that is the case then Riot must also lengthen the time it takes for other classes to kill one another. having assassins lose out on their niche is just like making tanks squishy. it's a lost of their identity.

NineTailedMysticJan 21, 20172 votes

Because 100-0 instaburst isn't healthy, but Assassins can't work any other way really. Imo Assassins as a concept are flawed in League.