Top lane is becoming a pool of mid laners who can't mid anymore

IsIsGankedParis·Jan 3, 2015·61 votes·10,269 views

Can something be done about this? I'm not saying nerf them I'm saying do something so they aren't forced to be top now because they have either been nerfed too much directly or indirectly, other champions in the mid make it way too unbearable for them to be there, or the meta is fucked that they can be in the lane that used to house bruisers.

Something needs to be done before top becomes a 2nd mid lane that can't roam well without teleport.

162 Comments

AtheosisXJan 3, 201522 votes

It's just the mass exodus from mid-lane due to all the overpowered assassins running amok. You either play an assassin or an assassin-countering mage mid lane nowadays. There are no other real choices, so for people who like to play champs that don't fit that description support or top are all that's left.

redniwediSJan 3, 20154 votes

Just wait until people realize the power of a sustain bruiser in the mid lane. That's when mid gets really interesting.

AtheosisXJan 3, 20152 votes

Most mages would vastly prefer that.

redniwediSJan 3, 20153 votes

That's what they think. =D

AtheosisXJan 3, 20155 votes

That's what they know. Assassins are crushing most mages right now. Sustain bruisers would not do that. You aren't privy to some hidden truth of LoL, sorry.

redniwediSJan 3, 20153 votes

Feel free to think what you want, I'll stick with my personally gained experience and have a blast with the current situation.

AtheosisXJan 3, 20152 votes

Okay, and you keep thinking you know something about this game others don't if that's what makes you happy.

TalamareJan 3, 201517 votes

Another thread where the root cause can be drawn to CertainlyT

A Wise FoolJan 3, 20157 votes

hey man, you do realize you can take "top lane champions" mid just as easily as you can take "mid laners" top... just saying

It Hertz When IPJan 3, 201523 votes

I think that's his point, that the boundary is starting to blur.

redniwediSJan 3, 201510 votes

I think Toast's point is that the boundary was never there to begin with. The "top" and "mid" champion pools have been mostly mixed for years, however things solidified for most of season 4. It didn't solidify completely, but it was rigid enough for people to notice the change back to the norm.

Flannel MannelJan 3, 20157 votes

I feel the boundary was always mostly fictional anyways. AP Top laners were a thing since season 1, and top laners going mid has always popped up too. There's been small FoTM's where Chogath Jayce Kayle LeeSin Malphite Pantheon Riven Teemo Vladimir MonkeyKing would go mid, plus any others I'm forgetting. Not to mention when junglers sometimes were viable mid, like Shaco Evelynn

SammystormJan 3, 20159 votes

to be fair Evelynn was originally a mid laner as was MasterYi . Shaco mid was more of a gimmick.

ModWulf HelhammerJan 3, 201564 votes

Why in the hell should there even be a boundary? One of my friends played Warwick mid and completely destroyed his lane opponent, carrying the team. Another time, I played AP Nasus Mid, and did reasonably well in lane phase (Hint to anyone who wants to try this: he is incredibly squishy if you don't build him tank-after lane phase it didn't go to well for me). There shouldn't be "Top Champions" or "Mid Champions", there should just be Champions. Yes there can be places where they work better than others, but that doesn't mean they have to be forever pigeonholed into those spots.

It always bothers me when people complain about someone playing ranged in top, about how they "don't belong there, because they completely reck other top laners" - not to be rude to those people, but if you think it's so unfair, then just play ranged as well! You may not like it, but if you're only reason for not liking it is because you keep getting beat, and you think that the only thing that can be in top lane are big melee tanks, you have no leg to stand on.

Champions should not be designed for lane positions, they should be designed for roles on the team. If you want to play a 5-man, all tank, all melee, 2-1-2 lane arrangement, then by all means do it! It may suck, it may dominate, but you played the game! To hell with what pros play, there are plenty of other ways that can win a game. Look up any youtube video about team comps like all ADC, a heal squad, or even all knockups; granted they will probably put the best footage in their videos, but they still played the game, and if something works even once, it can be justified to work again.

Sorry for the rant, but it's just something that really bothers me.

NubeelJan 3, 20154 votes

It's not that a boundary should exist but more that it exists anyway.

Most mid lane champions are immobile and/or squishy. Mid is the shortest lane so it makes sense for them to go there since it is safer for them. You can play Pantheon mid but it won't end well against a Brand or Syndra simply because they can stay far away from you and your damage and farm safely while harassing you. This is why Pantheon is mostly played top or in the jungle save for special cases.

Assassins like Zed and Talon are also mostly played mid because they exist to kill something quickly then run away. This is easier to do if your target is a squishy mage compared to a tanky Nasus who probably won't die and might kill you.

These champion interactions have basically established boundaries that most people accept. Tanks/Bruisers top and Mages/Assassins mid. When people mix these up problems arise.

Nidalee was mostly played mid before her changes because she had her Q with stupid damage that she could just throw all day as long as she had mana and her heal which meant she could go mid. Once she was changed and scaled better with AD and her cougar form she was better suited to the top lane since she couldn't deal with long range mages and pesky assassins as well anymore.

Angry MonsterJan 3, 20155 votes

Your level 24 you have no idea what your talkign about

Dankplank420Jan 3, 201528 votes

I've been playing since season 1 and I completely agree with what he is saying. There shouldn't be lanes you are pigeon-holed into. Look at Dota 2 if you want an example of a game where lanes are so much more fluid.

Angry MonsterJan 3, 20153 votes

your another idiot then. The only mages going top are the ones with high mobility. The top lane is supposed to have some weakness IE vulnerability. Now escape mages are playing safe in a long lane. Melees are going to be pushed out of the lane causing massive nerfs to the mages that moved like when annie and zyra went support, or the melees are going to buffed.

A fighter buff would make tanks even more nonviable and really mess up leagues balance again as a whole. Though Riot almost never buffs so these mages will get nerfed down and become even more nonviable.

Certain weakness are supposed to exist in the game and your supposed to adapt. Switching lanes is not adaptation.

Dankplank420Jan 3, 201512 votes

Did you look at Dota 2 before calling me an idiot? That is a game that does lane flexibility correctly, and make it far more interesting than league's stale "meta." If you want to have it so each champion has one lane they can have success in and nothing more, than you are part of the problem, and part of what has made league stale. People just love to whine when something they didn't expect happens.

PS: It's not "your," its "you're," check yourself before calling others idiots.

Angry MonsterJan 3, 20153 votes

please your not worth that much effort

Dota 2 has other game systems in place that allow for that. TO compare the 2 different games is complete stupidity.

Dankplank420Jan 3, 20159 votes

Comparing the two most popular MOBAs to each other is stupid?

Angry MonsterJan 3, 20151 votes

yes they are completely different games.

Dankplank420Jan 3, 20154 votes

I have played both extensively, they are comparable on many different levels. The MOBA genre isn't old enough to have huge diversity in its games. Even the "oddballs" (like Smite) are still comparable to the others. Just flatly saying you can't compare them is stupid.

xXSomeoneElseJan 3, 20157 votes

honestly I believe Smite is probably one of the best MOBA's around mainly due to the fact that it doesn't really have a set "meta" and the community isn't at all toxic its easy to learn and pick up but still has a lot of core values a MOBA should have and the 3rd person over top down view I feel is a plus.

Dankplank420Jan 3, 20157 votes

I would go further and say it is the best MOBA around.

xXSomeoneElseJan 3, 201510 votes

I completely agree with Dank though I haven't played much Dota (only lvl 3 there lol) the lanes don't really matter as much as the team comp does and even that is more fluid, and beyond that Riot has even stated that they didn't make champions intended for only "one" role or one lane that's why when you look at one it'll say ex. (thresh: Primary role support, Secondary: Fighter) yes there is a meta... why there is a meta? its because thats what works best in the "LCS" not for everyone who plays the game even the champions that the lcs teams play are the same champs you see in every lcs game, the safe laners that have a decent end game the "No-risk" champions, you shouldn't take how you and everyday people play and compare it to "Pros" and yes league is pretty stale and insanely toxic when someone doesn't follow the "meta" and then they go and carry the team when the "meta-picks" lost lane horribly, yes there are champions in that role that "do it better" but that shouldn't forbid you from playing who you want to or who you enjoy playing no matter where you have to play or what role you play it in. I also find it funny how in the small chance an LCS team does change it up alittle and go off meta for example unicorns of love vs tsm uol used a TF JG and won after that all you saw all day in solo q was TF jungles, stop copying what the pros do, find out for yourself what works for you and what doesn't and I promise you'll get out of bronze ;P

Dankplank420Jan 3, 201512 votes

Ding Ding Ding. Thank you for bringing up another point that I love. This game has the largest "sheep" community of any that I've played, and everyone seems to think that only what works for the pro players works.

Sorry to break it to everyone, but you are not all pros, and just because the strats they use work for them doesn't mean they work for everyone. For 99% of the playerbase almost every champion is viable, but people insist on trying to copy the pros to a tee. I love playing lanes like GP/Panth bot, Blitzstar, GP mid, Naut top, because they catch people off guard, and no one I play with is going to be "pro" enough to curbstomp me because I decide to try something the pros don't do.

xXSomeoneElseJan 3, 20155 votes

went 25-5 as an ad carry blitzcrank with a singed support :3 and again the only reason the pros even play like that is because its safe and known to work I just don't see how they don't get bored with playing the same champs all the time only changing if it gets banned then they go to another "safe" champion lol

SachabotJan 3, 20153 votes

It probably has to do with it being their job. I'd imagine boring isn't even something they consider.

captainkaigerJan 4, 20152 votes

My favorite blitz build is AP Mana tank, meaning once his passive pops I'm gonna have a 3000 health shield.

RaptameiJan 3, 20153 votes

{quoted}

I've been playing since season 1 and I completely agree with what he is saying. There shouldn't be lanes you are pigeon-holed into. Look at Dota 2 if you want an example of a game where lanes are so much more fluid.

But people cry when the enemy Vayne goes top and shits on their face, and blame Riot.

TheRainInSpainJan 4, 20152 votes

I got paired with mid lane as a traditional AP mage (Lux I think?) instead of my usual ... unorthodox picks that I'm good with but people seem to hate. And I got stuck with a full tank Cho'Gath who rekt'd me so hard that he had me at my Nexus tower by the time the other lanes were just barely pushing past the outer towers. When our jungler came to "save" me (What's a full tank going to do to Macho Lee Sin?), the Cho'Gath ate him. My jungler never came back to mid lane. We lost, badly.

That being said, I frequently take champions I'm good with to roles I know I can fulfill. My two best games I remember were when I took ADC to the mid lane, crushed my lane opponent (who knew mages couldn't really auto attack back?), and snowballed into their towers. The other game was when a duo brought a Lee Sin/Leona combo and decimated the enemy ADC/Support. They /ff20'd when the Lee bought a Hydra and their best guy was struggling with Pickaxe/BlastingWand.

AccountaBilabudyJan 7, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I got paired with mid lane as a traditional AP mage (Lux I think?) instead of my usual ... unorthodox picks that I'm good with but people seem to hate. And I got stuck with a full tank Cho'Gath who rekt'd me so hard that he had me at my Nexus tower by the time the other lanes were just barely pushing past the outer towers. When our jungler came to "save" me (What's a full tank going to do to Macho Lee Sin?), the Cho'Gath ate him. My jungler never came back to mid lane. We lost, badly.

That being said, I frequently take champions I'm good with to roles I know I can fulfill. My two best games I remember were when I took ADC to the mid lane, crushed my lane opponent (who knew mages couldn't really auto attack back?), and snowballed into their towers. The other game was when a duo brought a Lee Sin/Leona combo and decimated the enemy ADC/Support. They /ff20'd when the Lee bought a Hydra and their best guy was struggling with Pickaxe/BlastingWand.

I've done the Lux vs Cho match-up midlane as Cho a few times, and Cho wrecks Lux so easily. AP Cho at level 6 can combo Lux from 100-0. Land a Rupture, Scream, Feast and Ignite and its over.

Irelia BotMar 14, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darien Juranas,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5kfopHO5,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-01-03T04:33:58.200+0000)

I think that's his point, that the boundary is starting to blur.

That boundary has kinda been guidelines more than anything, I saw enough things like Morgana top in season 2 and all kinds of other things that are not considered normal show up in top and mid lane that they are not a problem of what can work but of getting the right balance to where it is reasonable counters that define strength of champs in laning.

The real boundary that needs to be killed is the mandatory marksmen meta. If this is kill then something drastic and in some ways much needed has happened for diversifying the game.

I Main SwainJan 3, 20151 votes

really, well lets make a list of champs that are, imo, meant for top lane

Aatrox Chogath Darius DrMundo Fiora Gangplank Garen Gnar Irelia Jax Jayce Malphite Nasus Olaf Pantheon Poppy Renekton Riven Rumble Shen Shyvana Singed Trundle Vladimir XinZhao Yorick

most of these guys would honestly suck mid in an even skill matchup

A Wise FoolJan 4, 20151 votes

no, no they wouldnt suck mid. it ENTIRELY depends on who they are up against. completely. out of the champions you listed: mundo, nasus, singed, and maybe shen would suck in MOST matchups. but still not all

I Main SwainJan 5, 20151 votes

actually, it depends on both the matchup and the skill level. however, generally speaking, against most midlaners and with both players having an equal skill level with their champs, most top laners would do pretty poorly

A Wise FoolJan 5, 20151 votes

you say that but what facts do you have to back you up? and that is still going on the assumption that there are "midlaners" and "toplaners" but lets make that assumption. where is your proof that most toplaners would do poorly against most midlaners? proof or examples please, otherwise you are just making a statement with no basis in fact or reality

I Main SwainJan 5, 20151 votes

look at their abilities. most top laners are fighters who excel at going all in and sticking to people, and also doing poorly against poke and often having relatively low early power. mid laners, while most also have relatively low power, also have decent cc and/or gap closer to deal with anyone who attempts to go in hard. they also often have some pretty good poke, in fact many are poke based. however, I should amend what I said. most wouldn't do very well. they may be able to keep from doing badly, but most wouldn't do well.

A Wise FoolJan 6, 20151 votes

{quoted}

most wouldn't do very well. they may be able to keep from doing badly, but most wouldn't do well.

i disagree with that, but maybe we are thinking of different champions. who do you consider to be mid laners and who for top? not examples, all of them

I Main SwainJan 6, 20151 votes

so this is how I play the roles

my idea of a top laner is 90% heavy tanks like Shen and Malphite and the champs who can be built as basically anything like MonkeyKing Jax and XinZhao , with the other 10% being the hyper carries like Tryndamere and Fiora .

my idea of a mid laner is honestly pure mage. Veigar Swain Fizz Annie Lux . all the guys like that (gotta say tho, Diana is frikin awesome, but she's one of the only exceptions to my mage mids)

A Wise FoolJan 7, 20151 votes

so basically your opinion of top is fighter/tank. your opinion of mid is mage. good thing thats just your opinion. no one cares

I Main SwainJan 7, 20151 votes

so I see you have turned this from a legitimate discussion into a douche rant for literally no reason other than the fact that I was disagreeing with you. I mean, really, was there any need for that? I know that it's just my opinion, and I was stating the entire time that it was my thought, not hard fact. next time you have a discussion, don't turn it into a butthurt douche rant. its people like you (ones who turn good things into bad for no reason) that make me hate half the community

AlorasenceJan 3, 20156 votes

Well, it is all very complicated.

The reason top lane was occupied by melee tanks and fighters for so long was heavily due to the fact that they were the only ones able to survive jungle ganks in the top lane. Top lane is a long lane, and many champions were unable to survive on the "island" without defensive steroids of some kind. Furthermore, if a team needed a damage soak champion in their team composition, top was the most logical place to put them.

Mid lane was and is occupied by assassins and mages because they have both the mobility for roams, and the wave clear to protect that all important lane.

Junglers are considerably weaker now, and that old limitation in top lane has been substantially lifted. Many champions can get by and survive top lane now.

This, combined with the nerfs to defensive items, has made champions like Lissandra, Jayce, Nidalee, Rumble, and Gnar, extremely powerful in their position.

TalamareJan 3, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Well, it is all very complicated.

The reason top lane was occupied by melee tanks and fighters for so long was heavily due to the fact that they were the only ones able to survive jungle ganks in the top lane. Top lane is a long lane, and many champions were unable to survive on the "island" without defensive steroids of some kind. Furthermore, if a team needed a damage soak champion in their team composition, top was the most logical place to put them.

Mid lane was and is occupied by assassins and mages because they have both the mobility for roams, and the wave clear to protect that all important lane.

Junglers are considerably weaker now, and that old limitation in top lane has been substantially lifted. Many champions can get by and survive top lane now.

This, combined with the nerfs to defensive items, has made champions like Lissandra, Jayce, Nidalee, Rumble, and Gnar, extremely powerful in their position.

Also heavily influenced by the fact that they gave mages and adc a TON of level 1 health and survivability, without boosting the disparity of tankier champions

Before the difference used to be 100~~200 HP Now its about 0~~50

ProfDrDeathJan 3, 20155 votes

Can you please stop with this myth, please?

EVERYONE got 68% of his growth factor/old per-level-growth added to his level 1 stats. Meaning, relatively, everybody got the same - or possibly even more.

68% of 90 is more than 68% of 82 (which is average HP/lvl for ADCs). 68% of 3.5 to 4 (most tanks' Armor/lvl) is more than 68% of 3.3 (most ADCs' Armor/lvl).

Also, every ranged champion did not get the +2 base AD.

GigglesOJan 3, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Well, it is all very complicated.

The reason top lane was occupied by melee tanks and fighters for so long was heavily due to the fact that they were the only ones able to survive jungle ganks in the top lane. Top lane is a long lane, and many champions were unable to survive on the "island" without defensive steroids of some kind. Furthermore, if a team needed a damage soak champion in their team composition, top was the most logical place to put them.

Mid lane was and is occupied by assassins and mages because they have both the mobility for roams, and the wave clear to protect that all important lane.

Junglers are considerably weaker now, and that old limitation in top lane has been substantially lifted. Many champions can get by and survive top lane now.

This, combined with the nerfs to defensive items, has made champions like Lissandra, Jayce, Nidalee, Rumble, and Gnar, extremely powerful in their position.

That isn't complicated at all. long story short they nerfed tanks, nerfed jungle, and bam, new toplanes.

SmokingPuffinJan 6, 20151 votes

The reason top lane was occupied by melee tanks and fighters for so long was heavily due to the fact that they were the only ones able to survive jungle ganks in the top lane. Top lane is a long lane, and many champions were unable to survive on the "island" without defensive steroids of some kind. Furthermore, if a team needed a damage soak champion in their team composition, top was the most logical place to put them.

This isn't entirely wrong, but it is missing an important thing: sustain nerfs.

The bruiser versus ranged champion matchup in lane is largely decided by how much sustain the bruiser gets. Most bruisers have little chance to kill a Lulu or a Lissandra in lane, and no ability to trade with such a champion, so the question is how long they can stay in lane before being poked out.

The single biggest factor in the exodus of bruisers from top lane is the Doran's Blade nerf.

AnysonAcEJan 3, 20155 votes

The meta is changing, that's how league works.