i dont agree with pykes w to be honest.

Critmaster Garen·Jun 12, 2018·2 votes·846 views

he shouldnt be able to heal while in combat with abilities like ignite on him.

the next time you buff or nerf him, this part of his kit should be addressed. give him like a 3 second delay out of combat with enemy champions for the w to activate.

taking this champion down with damage over time effects is literally impossible. he just needs to use one of his mobility tools to get out of vision, and those abilities immediately dont deal damage anymore.

even doesnt get that. he has to be out of combat for a moment for the heal to kick in.

8 Comments

EbonyBladeJ88Jun 12, 20181 votes

Well, if we look at it from a design viewpoint, it's supposed to be one of his "Escape" abilities that the "Assassin" side of him is intended to have. Looking at our wondrous LOL Wiki, Pyke falls under both the Slayer (Assassin Sub-Class) and Controller (Catcher Subclass) roles.

Slayers (Or more specifically, the Assassin Subclass) has this in their description. (Now this is written by anonymous contributors to the Wiki, not Riot employees themselves): "Due to their mostly melee nature, Assassins must put them themselves into dangerous positions in order to execute their targets. Luckily, they often have defensive tricks up their sleeves that, if used cleverly, allow them to effectively avoid incoming damage."

So looking at it that way, the ability to vanish and then proc his passive's heal makes sense.

But I can also see where you're coming from on this, as in the (presumably) hypothetical example you gave of him being under the effects of a DoT such as summoner 14 , or any other DoT effects (Like Singed or Teemo's poison, or Nautilus' W DoT, or Darius' bleed as additional examples) should technically render him incapable of doing something like this:

Pyke : And for my next trick, I will turn... INVISIBLE! Activates W POOF! I'm gone!

Darius : OK, wait. He was just bleeding profusely because I had my Noxian Might on him. The F*ck'd he go?

But he's also a "Support" under the Catcher Sub-Class. It says the following about them: "Although not as reliant on their friends as Enchanters, the fragile and immobile Catchers greatly benefit from allied presence - both to deter incoming danger and to help capitalize on targets they've locked down."

(These are not the ENTIRE transcripts of the descriptions, just as a heads-up)

So that makes it something of a contradiction. He's not intended to have escapes (As a support, one is supposed to be reliant on one's allies), yet he does.

In HotS (Heroes of the Storm, I play that along with this) some of their "Assassin" characters can also turn invisible (Such as Nova, Zeratul, Valeera). Some can even render themselves Un-revealable, if they take certain talents in their talent trees. I think that's something Riot applied to Pyke here with his W. A sense of that same "Unrevealable" nature, if you will.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, I don't fully agree with it either. But, while that "Assassin" part of his kit does seem odd, it's off-set (For the most part) by the fact that he has the fragility of the Support/Controller that he is and is very "feast-or-famine" (From what I'VE experienced). If he (And by extension, his ADC) can't get fed, then this "bonus" provided by his W can be considered acceptable to try and break him out of slumps. But that depends on skillful use/play by the Pyke themselves.

Critmaster GarenJun 12, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Well, if we look at it from a design viewpoint, it's supposed to be one of his "Escape" abilities that the "Assassin" side of him is intended to have. Looking at our wondrous LOL Wiki, falls under both the Slayer (Assassin Sub-Class) and Controller (Catcher Subclass) roles.

Slayers (Or more specifically, the Assassin Subclass) has this in their description. (Now this is written by anonymous contributors to the Wiki, not Riot employees themselves): "Due to their mostly melee nature, Assassins must put them themselves into dangerous positions in order to execute their targets. Luckily, they often have defensive tricks up their sleeves that, if used cleverly, allow them to effectively avoid incoming damage."

So looking at it that way, the ability to vanish and then proc his passive's heal makes sense.

But I can also see where you're coming from on this, as in the (presumably) hypothetical example you gave of him being under the effects of a DoT such as , or any other DoT effects (Like Singed or Teemo's poison, or Nautilus' W DoT, or Darius' bleed as additional examples) should technically render him incapable of doing something like this:

: And for my next trick, I will turn... INVISIBLE! Activates W POOF! I'm gone!

: OK, wait. He was just bleeding profusely because I had my Noxian Might on him. The F*ck'd he go?

But he's also a "Support" under the Catcher Sub-Class. It says the following about them: "Although not as reliant on their friends as Enchanters, the fragile and immobile Catchers greatly benefit from allied presence - both to deter incoming danger and to help capitalize on targets they've locked down."

(These are not the ENTIRE transcripts of the descriptions, just as a heads-up)

So that makes it something of a contradiction. He's not intended to have escapes (As a support, one is supposed to be reliant on one's allies), yet he does.

In HotS (Heroes of the Storm, I play that along with this) some of their "Assassin" characters can also turn invisible (Such as Nova, Zeratul, Valeera). Some can even render themselves Un-revealable, if they take certain talents in their talent trees. I think that's something Riot applied to Pyke here with his W. A sense of that same "Unrevealable" nature, if you will.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, I don't fully agree with it either. But, while that "Assassin" part of his kit does seem odd, it's off-set (For the most part) by the fact that he has the fragility of the Support/Controller that he is and is very "feast-or-famine" (From what I'VE experienced). If he (And by extension, his ADC) can't get fed, then this "bonus" provided by his W can be considered acceptable to try and break him out of slumps. But that depends on skillful use/play by the Pyke themselves.

its not hypothetical. its what happened. i got 5 bleed stacks on him with darius and ignited.

he dashed out of vision and they entirely stopped dealing damage to him, since he immediately heals off what damage they do to him when hes not in vision range. when he returned into vision range he was at 40% health.

make it 1 second if you have to, but debuffs should keep him in combat with enemy champions, which should prevent his healing.

EbonyBladeJ88Jun 13, 20181 votes

Now see, I didn't know that it wasn't a hypothetical situation. So, I now can see how you are questioning this, because a fully-stacked Bleed, PLUS Ignite basically means... https://cdn.pixabay.com/photo/2013/07/13/12/32/tombstone-159792_960_720.png (Because of the Grievous Wounds that summoner 14 is SUPPOSED to apply)

The same problem exists in Heroes of the Storm. Many of the characters I mentioned in that game that can make themselves "Unrevealable" also are "Cleansed" of any DoT effects. I should have mentioned that in my original comment, sorry. However, while here in LOL we only have ONE champ that can do that ( Pyke ) HoTS has MANY. (Valeera was literally unkillable because of this "Unrevealability" on release, and Blizzard, IMHO, is even MORE lenient on balance than Riot is, and that's saying something) Now they added Fenix, (From Starcraft 1) who is basically Valeera 2.0, minus the invisibility.

Critmaster GarenJun 13, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Now see, I didn't know that it wasn't a hypothetical situation. So, I now can see how you are questioning this, because a fully-stacked Bleed, PLUS Ignite basically means... https://cdn.pixabay.com/photo/2013/07/13/12/32/tombstone-159792_960_720.png (Because of the Grievous Wounds that is SUPPOSED to apply)

The same problem exists in Heroes of the Storm. Many of the characters I mentioned in that game that can make themselves "Unrevealable" also are "Cleansed" of any DoT effects. I should have mentioned that in my original comment, sorry. However, while here in LOL we only have ONE champ that can do that ( ) HoTS has MANY. (Valeera was literally unkillable because of this "Unrevealability" on release, and Blizzard, IMHO, is even MORE lenient on balance than Riot is, and that's saying something) Now they added Fenix, (From Starcraft 1) who is basically Valeera 2.0, minus the invisibility.

wait. i just realized who you are. didnt see you out of your story thread yet, or im just dumb and blind and didnt notice before :)

EbonyBladeJ88Jun 13, 20181 votes

It's quite alright. Yes, I do post about more than the Juggernaut Club and it's episodes, though it's rare, few and far between when I do.

AzadetheJun 13, 20181 votes

For one thing, if he's still in combat and visible, he can't heal. So How he works vs what you said is contradictory. He's usually not healing until he's already ~3-4 seconds away from the fight, and if there's an Ignite it diminishes what heals.

And what you said about DoT isn't true either. If the DoT is attaching like , it still burns, and Pyke doesn't heal.

If it's something like Morgana , then yes. he gets outside the fight and outside the pool so yes. He can heal.

Do you even realize how squishy pyke is all game? The heal mechanism is what keeps him in it at all. At most 10+ minute points in the game he is a 2 shot kill. If he attempts to E he's usually dead.

Critmaster GarenJun 13, 20181 votes

{quoted}

For one thing, if he's still in combat and visible

thats not true. you can be out of enemy vision range, and when you have a debuff or dot effect on you, youre not visible while in combat with enemy champions at the same time.

when pyke is out of vision of enemy champions, his passive immediately kicks in and heals him. this means any damage that is dealt to him by abilities like passive or Darius bleed heals as fast as its applied.

MorganFreemanBotJun 13, 20181 votes

Pyke's passive + W is fine.

Pyke is designed to play like an assassin despite being a support; this means that they had to find a way to make him weave in and out of fights. This is why he doesn't get bonus health, because if he did you'd just build him bruiser / tank and use him as a CC bot with moderate damage.

The W + heal combination is the trade off. He can't get tanky in the traditional sense, but he can leave a fight and re-enter it shortly after with much higher health. This is fine because you can prevent him from leaving (burst super hard / smack him with hard CC when he gets low and starts looking to back out), and you can also pursue him if he tries to do it right ontop of you / play a fast champ, because it's camo rather than stealth.

It's fine.