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Tanks should absolutely be able to 100/0 squishy champions

Barcid··63 votes·3,941 views

This has been going around the boards a lot - this assertion that "I have been 100/0'd by a tank as a carry, something must be wrong." Not to say that the current meta is not a clusterfuck of asinine gameplay and balancing around the slightest snowball, it most certainly is. But this is not something that is particularly wrong, and that's going to seem weird to hear. Bear with me, though, and I'll explain the logic behind this.

First of all we're looking at the idea of ranged versus melee, and thing number one to note is that being melee inherently sucks. Ranged is such a massive boon, since if two units were to just right click on each other on equal standing and just let the numbers duke it out, the ranged unit would 100% always and forever win - because they're ranged. Why the hell wouldn't they win? They get to attack first by the plain fact that they are literally able to attack first since a melee unit must first move adjacent to a ranged unit to do anything. This comes to the first concept:

#Being ranged instantly eats into a champion's power budget.

In order to keep the game fun and balanced for everyone regardless of the champion, having a boon so insanely great as just being able to attack from range has to be balanced out by shortcomings in other areas, these generally being utility, mobility, or base statistics taking a hit. Which means that point number two is:

#If a melee champion has engaged upon you, a ranged champion, while they are on even ground with you (full health, building optimally for their champion and you doing the same), you should absolutely lose the fight if you do not widen the gap.

This always seems to go right over peoples' heads as an ADC - "I built damage, clearly I must be able to outduel everyone in the game regardless." Unless you're Vayne (who is an absolute nightmare of shitty balancing and should by no means be the measurement of balance in this game), you absolutely should not win a melee fight against someone you haven't even scratched. If ranged units could simply melee-mode, there would be absolutely no reason - and I do mean zero reason - to ever play a melee champion since not only would ranged units already have the edge, they also win in the only case the melee champion can actually do anything. Basically if all Naut could do was crowd control people and he did no damage otherwise, then why would you play him over someone like Veigar who could drop a mass area stun just as easily and destroy people at the same time?

In fact, this was an actual issue in the game. That was season 4 in a nutshell - true blue tanks did next to no damage at the time, basically only serving as crowd control slaves to keep the enemy team's assassin at bay long enough for their allied assassin to do their own work. Then the ADC would just clean house after. Being a tank generally meant that after you outgrew your early-game bases, your scaling was utterly garbage and you weren't going to win a 1v1 against anyone ever. Nautilus was a prime example of this - with all his damage plugged into his W (and it not even being particularly great damage), playing against him literally boiled down to popping his shield and then walking around him to kill his carries. This isn't even a joke. This was legitimately what would happen if the opposing team was ahead. Sejuani had similar issues as well, and Gragas at the time had hardly ever seen a tank build and was a straight-faced mage (his tank build was utter trash back then, by the way).

#Being utterly worthless by yourself and relying solely upon your teammates isn't fun. Being nothing but a bullet-sponge makes players feel like they could just as easily be replaced by a bot.

It was the support problem - you couldn't carry your team, your team had to carry you with you basically just trying to make sure they could. The vast majority of the time, unless you had a hyper-carry on your team, taking a tank that wasn't also your support-laner was legitimately gimping your team.

This is why season 5 was what it was.

With a whole class dying off due to being just plain subpar, season 5 was a fitting response - an entire season where everyone was blowing up and you actually could take a full assassin team and completely stomp the game (level 6 game was fucking absurd) saw retaliation by putting bulk back into the game, and tanks adored this.

And what do you know? A class that hadn't been consistently seen for entire seasons suddenly reared their face again, which meant that players had to drastically readjust how they were playing. It wasn't a team deathmatch killing floor anymore, it was a team-based brawl, and people didn't adjust well. We got these same exact complaints back then as well - "Why are tanks killing carries? They shouldn't do that!" And to an extent this was kind of correct - it wasn't so much that tanks were able to kill units, though, but that a little too much bulk had been given back to them, meaning they weren't so much damage-dealing monsters as just completely unkillable. This was the start of the season, though, and eventually this evened out to a very nice balance overall. "But tanks were still too strong! You couldn't fight them!" Which is an unabated falsehood. Tanks could be fought by bruisers or other tanks - basically other front-line units. Mages (other than Vlad and Swain) and ranged units had to hide behind their own front-line. As it should have been.

#Playing as a back-line unit should mean you have to stay in the back-line, protected by your front-line. You do not put an archer brigade in front of your phalanx and expect them to fight the cavalry.

I legitimately do not understand where this idea that a back-line unit should be able to duel a front-line unit spawned from, but I'm going to choose to blame Vayne for spreading the idea because I don't like her. I don't have any other justification for that assertion, so complain if you want. Unless you're being supported and it's a 2v1 against the melee, you should not win a fight where the melee engaged upon you and not the other way around. I'm sorry that you feel powerless in this situation and like you have to rely upon your team, but... well, this might sound crazy, but:

#A team game should require all roles to play their respective part. You should not be exclusively planning to win alone.

You going off on your own and trying to win the game solo shouldn't be your goal or your intent. Your intent should be to work with your team, so if the enemy Ornn caught you with your pants down in the jungle as Jinx all by your little lonesome, yes you should absolutely die to him because you weren't playing with your team. If you had a tank in front to peel you and Ornn could never reach you, you're damn right you would kill him and he'd never touch you - that's the point of having range, to be out of direct danger. That is your primary key advantage as a unit.

So before we continue this complaint about "tanks doing damage", I suggest you remember what this game is supposed to be - it is not supposed to be your KDA playground. Just because the game plays counter-intuitively like one doesn't mean that it should be our balancing goal.

132 Comments

Nut on my Butt47 votes

Whenever I have a gripe about a tank being able to kill squishies, it's typically more about the speed in which they're doing it, not that they are able to.

Barcid13 votes

That's more the season we're in. Everything's overloaded with damage right now, so it's not a drawn-out duel between the Sion and the Kog'maw, it's Sion ulted in and combo'd Kog'maw with an Aftershock proc.

This of course goes both ways, where Kog'maw killed the tank Sion in 1.5 seconds flat so tanks feel like they can't even do their primary job. This season as a whole is fucked - just that the posts complaining about tanks doing damage at all are generally misguided assertions.

You are right. Things are dying too fast period. But that's a different discussion.

Infernal Ironic3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Daddy Issues,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5dnzeaaG,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-01-23T09:07:20.169+0000)

Whenever I have a gripe about a tank being able to kill squishies, it's typically more about the speed in which they're doing it, not that they are able to.

What about a speed at which carries are killing TANKS

Holy shit getting tilted

Longtowel1 votes

Which adcs which tanks?

No ADC can kill a properly built Malphite quickly.

Infernal Ironic1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Wrecked Wrecker,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5dnzeaaG,comment-id=000000010001,timestamp=2018-01-25T22:34:23.072+0000)

Which adcs which tanks?

No ADC can kill a properly built Malphite quickly.

Last whisper

No adc can kill shen quickly

And any tank with % dmg reduction which cant be fked up my LW

Rammus and Malphite still melt with LW. I wish this wasnt a case but it sadly is It wasnt like that in season 1 though

Longtowel1 votes

Last whisper is a problem, but from my experience playing adc, it is really hard and takes really long to down a Malphite with randuins or thornmail when he’s also landed his e. You attack like a snail.

Besides as a tank why would you ever find yourself in a situation that you have to duel an ADC? You are either with your team or the enemy ADC has a support with them.

Teridax684 votes

This I think is the actual issue people have with tanks at the moment. While I do think tanks should be able to dominate ranged targets at melee range in ways that do not purely rely on damage, I think it's perfectly acceptable for them to win fights if they manage to close the distance. However, the issue many people take with tanks is that several of them are now capable of burst, which feels bad even for more durable classes who face up against them. Aftershock I think is a prime culprit, particularly since it's causing bot lane tanks to chunk marksmen and squishy supports for massive amounts of damage in the space of a very short engage.

While all of this is a welcome change of pace from the era of hyper-safe enchanter/marksman duo bot lanes, I think it also is a pretty significant indicator of how fragile balance is around melee versus ranged combat: if the only way a melee champion can successfully express their power against a ranged opponent is by bursting them down in the short window where they arrive at melee range, that both limits the diversity of melee gameplay, and suggests it's otherwise too easy overall to keep melee opponents at a distance. Tanks should not have to be part-assassin to be able to do their job properly, and the fact that they're expected to have damage to be useful is, to me, an indicator that the balancing of tanks and the game overall isn't where it should be.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

"Diversity of melee gameplay"

What 'diversity'? This is a game about killing. What do you want to do other than kill people?

Teridax681 votes

There are multiple to kill a champion, and bursting them down within a few seconds is only one of them. Moreover, not every champion is designed to kill (supports focus on utility, and tanks normally focus on CC), and on top of that League is not simply about killing, it is a game won by completing objectives. Not every champion in the game needs to be able to 100-0 a target within four seconds in order to function.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Fine. We already have plenty of that diversity among melee champions. We have divers, vanguards, wardens, skirmishers, assassins, juggernauts, and etc.

And the thing is, if you're not a warden, your job is to kill people as a melee champion. There are all different ways for you to kill people, but you're still killing people. That includes vanguards. Vanguards are there to initiate the charge and CC the enemy team so...dun dun dun! You can kill the enemy team before they kill you!

Teridax681 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5dnzeaaG,comment-id=00000002000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-24T02:08:30.919+0000)

Fine. We already have plenty of that diversity among melee champions. We have divers, vanguards, wardens, skirmishers, assassins, juggernauts, and etc.

Sure, but has has just been explained in the above posts, there is not actually all that much diversity to how they currently fight. Because these champions tend to only have a short window of time where they can deal damage against ranged champions, and currently have access to a lot of bursty sources of damage, their fighting styles tend to blend together to some extent, as they all end up fighting like assassins. Widening this window of opportunity, and spreading out the damage of champions that are not meant to be bursty, could allow for more diversity in how melee champions fight, because they wouldn't all have to rely on killing their opponents within the first few seconds of combat or getting killed otherwise.

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5dnzeaaG,comment-id=00000002000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-24T02:08:30.919+0000)

And the thing is, if you're not a warden, your job is to kill people as a melee champion. There are all different ways for you to kill people, but you're still killing people. That includes vanguards. Vanguards are there to initiate the charge and CC the enemy team so...dun dun dun! You can kill the enemy team before they kill you!

Sure, but the purpose of vanguards is to facilitate the killing of enemies, not necessarily do the killing themselves. The entire point to the class is that they get to initiate so that their teammates can follow up, so if they can provide both the initiation and the follow-up, there is little reason to pick another melee class unless they can also do both.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Sure, but the purpose of vanguards is to facilitate the killing of enemies, not necessarily do the killing themselves. The entire point to >the class is that they get to initiate so that their teammates can follow up, so if they can provide both the initiation and the follow-up, >there is little reason to pick another melee class unless they can also do both.

And? In case you haven't noticed, melee champions are a dying breed in real games. You have mages and marksmen in top lane, mages and marksmen in mid lane, marksmen and enchanters in the bottom lane. It is very common to see a single melee champion on the entire team, and that's the jungler. So why shouldn't we have a class of melee champions that can do it all? Malphite, Sion, Sejuani, Zac, Amumu, Rammus and etc are doing very well at being these powerful initiators.

Teridax681 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5dnzeaaG,comment-id=0000000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-24T03:17:56.049+0000)

And? In case you haven't noticed, melee champions are a dying breed in real games. You have mages and marksmen in top lane, mages and marksmen in mid lane, marksmen and enchanters in the bottom lane. It is very common to see a single melee champion on the entire team, and that's the jungler. So why shouldn't we have a class of melee champions that can do it all? Malphite, Sion, Sejuani, Zac, Amumu, Rammus and etc are doing very well at being these powerful initiators.

So let's just blend over half of the game's roster into a single class and make them all play the same way, amirite?

Sarcasm aside, I'm having trouble understanding exactly what point it is you're trying to make, and whether or not you truly believe in what you're typing. I don't think melee champions are "a dying breed" by any metric, and even if they were, that would be all the more reason to take a look at what's causing them to lose popularity and reverse the decline, not accelerate it. Like I said above, I think it would be worth shifting the pacing of fights, as well as potentially pull back on kiting across the board, so that more melee champions are encouraged to stick to their targets for extended periods of time, instead of being expected to get in range and blow all of their power in the first few instants of combat. That could perhaps be a viable playstyle on some assassins, but fighters shouldn't have to rely on burst to function, and tanks shouldn't have to rely on damage at all in order to remain relevant. The fact that they all do is a problem, and that is what need to change, not the very definition of those classes.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

I would love to hear a single viable idea for how to "pull back on kiting across the board". Kiting is based on the basics of the game's mechanics. You can orb walk. Your auto attacks have some wind up but it's possible to cancel them. You can attack from range, and the melee champion cannot attack from range. What can we possibly do to make kiting less prevalent in this game?

Teridax681 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5dnzeaaG,comment-id=000000020000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-24T04:30:44.788+0000)

I would love to hear a single viable idea for how to "pull back on kiting across the board". Kiting is based on the basics of the game's mechanics.

If this were true, then the state of kiting would not have changed since the game's beginning, yet here we are. As many people have mentioned before me, a major reason why kiting has become more severe in recent times is because cooldown reduction has become much more prevalent: champions can dash and apply CC more frequently, especially marksmen and mages, and as a result melee champions often have a hard time sticking to their targets. In addition, increases to the pacing of fights, mainly through higher damage and decreased defenses, means that melee champions have ended up with a smaller window of time to reach opponents before they die. In this respect, pulling back on damage and crowd control somewhat could work wonders for melee champions, as it would allow them to be kited less hard overall.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Pulling back on crowd control? Crowd control is the one tool that these immobile champions you're so worried about have to protect themselves. There is very little reason to select Veigar over Ahri, save his Event Horizon. You wouldn't pick Viktor over LeBlanc except for his Gravity Field. These are powerful tools that help compensate for a lack of mobility and are indeed useful in stopping kiting and catching mobile champions.

And if you pull back on damage, just so you can pull back on the melee champions' burst patterns, what do you have then? The melee champions can survive longer and get closer, but still get kited back because of effects like Arcane Shift, .90 Caliber Net, Vault...and then after that they take more damage, they get closer, and then they can't burst you down. So you survive, kill them, and move on. It's slower, but because you are able to kite once because you were already at range and then a second time with your escape ability, the overall decrease in damage impacts the melee champion more than the ranged champion.

Teridax681 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5dnzeaaG,comment-id=00000002000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-24T06:32:12.280+0000)

Pulling back on crowd control? Crowd control is the one tool that these immobile champions you're so worried about have to protect themselves.

It really isn't, because ranged CC absolutely contributes to kiting, and melee CC is overwhelmingly present on tanks, who as a result of it tend to shut fighters out of teamfights.

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5dnzeaaG,comment-id=00000002000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-24T06:32:12.280+0000)

There is very little reason to select Veigar over Ahri, save his Event Horizon. You wouldn't pick Viktor over LeBlanc except for his Gravity Field.

I had no idea Veigar and Viktor were melee champions; thank you for enlightening me.

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5dnzeaaG,comment-id=00000002000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-24T06:32:12.280+0000)

These are powerful tools that help compensate for a lack of mobility and are indeed useful in stopping kiting and catching mobile champions.

Except these tools that help catch mobile champions are even more effective against immobile champions. A dash is more than enough to evade Veigar's cage or Viktor's W, whereas immobile champions can only walk through. Against melee champions in particular, these are powerful zoning tools that are especially useful against champions who can't barrel through them. I don't think immobile ranged champions should lose their crowd control, though I do think crowd control needs to be adjusted for having significantly more uptime than before.

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5dnzeaaG,comment-id=00000002000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-24T06:32:12.280+0000)

And if you pull back on damage, just so you can pull back on the melee champions' burst patterns, what do you have then? The melee champions can survive longer and get closer, but still get kited back because of effects like Arcane Shift, .90 Caliber Net, Vault...and then after that they take more damage, they get closer, and then they can't burst you down. So you survive, kill them, and move on. It's slower, but because you are able to kite once because you were already at range and then a second time with your escape ability, the overall decrease in damage impacts the melee champion more than the ranged champion.

If a melee champion cannot kill an Ezreal who used multiple Arcane Shifts, a Caitlyn who used multiple nets, or a Quinn who used multiple Vaults, the problem isn't that kiting is too strong, but that that champion simply did not play well. 5-8 seconds should be plenty enough time for a fighter to at least seriously damage a squishy, even with reduced damage. Your math simply does not check out, and your fearmongering is itself completely disproven by prior seasons, seasons whose metas you should be well aware of.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Previous seasons did not have the assassin rework, nor the current "anti-burst" mentality that Riot has. For example, Vi is a champion that is completely designed with the correct mentality in mind. She is practically unfair in the amount of rapid burst, undodgeable CC, and multiple gap closers that allow her to dive a kiting champion repeatedly, and she has a shield to prevent damage and an unstoppable effect to prevent CC on top of that.

Then Riot went and ripped the up front damage out of Fizz, LeBlanc, Katarina, ...Ekko never had it, but Ekko wasn't ever actually an assassin to begin with, etc. Previous seasons aren't comparable to this new "melee champions shouldn't burst" direction that Riot is going.

And I didn't say that the champions were getting multiple escapes off, reread what I said. I said it is up to the melee champion to close the gap first, because the two champions do not start off right next to each other, and during that gap closing the ranged champion is pelting them with damage. When the melee champion closes the gap, the ranged champion can escape, and then the melee champion has to close the gap again. All the while, the ranged champion is pelting them with damage. Even if you reduce the ranged champion and melee champion's damage output by 50% for both of them, the ranged champion has more opportunity to deal their lower damage than the melee champion, which means they will win. Burst is necessary because of the time it takes to dive.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

As an ADC or a mage, you are required to kite effectively. You are required to play back and use your range effectively. What is the point? The point is the same as always: you can siege effectively without getting close enough to be an easy target. It's just that now, if you fuck up, you pay dearly.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

This is a problem that a lot of ranged players have. "Why is X able to burst me down in 2 seconds?"

The reason is that the actual time spent dealing damage is only a fraction of the time it actually takes to kill you. Melee can't just right click and start the damage train, they have to close the gap. And against some champions, you have to close the gap multiple times (Ahri, Tristana, Vayne).

Peel and kiting are strong, so melee burst has to be strong to compensate. This actually makes the game more about skill and less about stat checking, it's a game of diving and kiting.

Nut on my Butt3 votes

Yes, they should, for melee champions that are actually intended to deal damage like assassins and juggernauts, and they currently do a good job at that. It's not the tank's job to bypass the enemy frontline and leave their backline defenseless.

Ranged champions are also not the only squishies, and a lot of them are immobile while lots of tanks have long range hard engage.

The Yetii Rider3 votes

I'm sorry? Vanguards are all about leaving their backlines and destroying the enemy. Do you think Malphite presses R and gives a fuck about the carry he left behind? No. He's going in to set up some damage for the rest of his team, not to peel for his allies.

A lot of ranged champions ARE immobile, yes. That doesn't matter. Because we have so many champions who ARE mobile, we need divers and assassins who can catch the hyper mobile champions. If you want to curb the burst on divers, you need to curb the mobility of the worst offenders so that the burst is no longer necessary to kill them.

Nut on my Butt3 votes

Exactly, assassins and divers are the ones with the sticking power and burst to kill mobile ranged champions. Tanks shouldn't have that burst damage ontop of their utility and tankiness, or the other classes lose purpose.

If you look at their dmg items and kits in general, their damage is supposed to be more of a creeping threat.

The Yetii Rider3 votes

Their damage items? You mean item 3068 , which was nerfed so badly in the tank update that Riot had to completely revert it after Runes Reforged because tanks were doing so badly in top lane? Or how about item 3025 , which is built on maybe two tanks total? Or are we talking about item 3075 , which was only reworked to try and help tanks stop being a health battery for marksmen in the first place, because tanks were dealing so little damage that marksmen simply ignored them altogether?

If you want to make this argument, you're going to need to give examples. I'm an actual tank player. I know what our damage items are and how they have been changed.

Trackpad Shaco2 votes

lol the ridiculous damage outputted by the choice few broken tank champions isn't from items, its from their kits and from aftershock. Sejuani is the #1 most broken tank in this game, her kit allows her to CC lock squishies from range, while doing a %health damage that bursts, while doing continuous damage, and then with aftershock damage. On the whole, though, most of the tanks in the game are at a happy medium, its just a few tanks with great kits paired with aftershock that are broken.

The Yetii Rider2 votes

I'm pretty sure Leona is the most broken tank in the game at the moment.

And yes, that's the thing. It's just a few tanks who are overtuned with Aftershock, not tanks as a whole. That's why you don't rage against a whole class when the whole class isn't the issue.

buPPDrmXEO16 votes

So if a tank can 100>0 a squishy, WHILE having a safe laning phase, low cooldowns, tons of CC and different roles they can partake depending on the course the particular match being played is taking (peel, engage, disengage, soak damage, cc the important targets etc etc), what is the point of taking Fighter and a Bruiser? Champions who for the most part ONLY have their damage and RELY on snowballing their lane, but can't due to the fact that tanks are unkillable 1v1 while also being able to trade exact same amounts of damage back to the fighter/bruiser? So you have these 5-dimensional teamfight Gods with a safe laning phase AND you have the 1-dimensional "kill carry or bust" fighters, who do you pick?

RocketRelm7 votes

You pick tanks. /s

Seriously though, tanks should be able to 100-0 an ad, but they can't 200-0 them (which is what you need when a support is dropping 2 item actives and a shield on them). Bruisers should be able to 200-0 them and have the sustained damage to punch through support shields.

Bruisers are underpowered though, so they can't actually do that.

(This is notably different from the assassin's issue, because the assassin can 100-0 a marksman, but marksmen have 200% HP, and assassins are balanced around "I can only barely 100-0 with my full combo", so they don't have enough steam. Bruisers have the steam, they just get peeled too easily right now, in part because Tenacity is a meme given the prevalence of knock-ups/knock-backs.)

Barcid2 votes

This is basically the theory and the current state of the game right now.

Tanks should be able to duel a squishy, and at one point in season 5 bruisers had the place of being able to outduel a tank and a squishy but the weakness that eating a ton of damage at once (I.E. eating the brunt of a teamfight) would see them dead, meaning overall they were weaker once it came to the 5v5. Great clean-up crew, and really good if they instead got the drop on everyone else.

I did say at the start, though, that this season is an utter clusterfuck of complete asinine balancing. The game is very much skewed in how scaling should be - tanks originally taking time to bulk up before becoming juggernauts to be reckoned with and ADC's having to wait for their items, but now both of these roles have some of the cheapest items accessible to them to get them scaling harder and sooner.

What I was trying to specify in the post is that this is not an assertion on the current state of things so much as something to keep in mind when (if) we finally see a return to our previous balance, that tanks aren't just meant to eat up damage but that they do have a place dishing it out as well. Just I would definitely prefer to see it be the drawn out 100/0 over 10 seconds rather than the instant burst of an assassin.

BestPudgeNA1 votes

{quoted}

Bruisers are underpowered though, so they can't actually do that.

People seriously need to stop saying this. All the top challenger top mains are spaming bruisers in solo Q

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/xXgKZsII-bruisers-arent-bad-its-just-a-meme

Penns2 votes

Good thing tanks cant do that hehe

Spank the Fox5 votes

Lest we forget our favorite S7 assassins, Maokai and Poppy.

redniwediS4 votes

Tanks are able to do that in a 1v1, but when outnumbered are less likely to successfully do this. That's where Juggernauts, Skirmishers, and Divers come in. They are better equipped to deal with a situation where they are outnumbered, which is why they also make the best split pushers and have many champions among their ranks who are not considered to be good team fight champions.

Snowman Arc1 votes

So, you are asking why pick an Irelia over a Maokai? Simple. Irelia does things that Maokai can't. Irelia can do things on her own, while Maokai can't always do that and what I mean by that is that Irelia can roam in the jungle or mid lane and pick up a fight and come out on top, while Maokai probably won't do that. You will rarely see Maokai solo run down mid lane to try and kill someone; he will be needing assistance from is mid laner. Irelia can do that on her own. Also, Irelia can be a splitpusher and can 1v1 pretty much everyone in the game, where Maokai just falls off after level 11 in 1v1s.

Also, Irelia can assassinate a squishy champion far easier than Maokai does. Oh, and she can also do that while being amongst multiple people, because she is elusive and deals a lot of damage. Maokai will probably get CC'ed and his damage output isn't that high to the point that he will probably not get the kill or even die in the process. Irelia on the other hand can just jump on you with a duskblade and one shot you. Real 1-shot though, real 100->0, not the 10 second process that Maokai needs. I main Maokai and Irelia and I know how much time it takes for both of them to kill the ADC at 15 minutes. Irelia takes 3 seconds at best, Maokai takes like 12 seconds, if he even manages to get the kill.

buPPDrmXEO2 votes

Oh wow I didn't know duskblade Irelia was a thing in Gold elo. Thanks for informing me!

Snowman Arc1 votes

Based on the pace of the match, of course. Triforce is still preferred.

Blåbæret16 votes

The problem isn't that tanks are dealing damage, the problem is when Alistar can burst your ADC from 100% to 20% in 3 seconds.

redniwediS14 votes

I'd put things a different way personally. A tank should never be able to 100-0 a carry in a 1v1, not because the tank should do negligible damage, but because the carry shouldn't be a pure glass cannon. As it currently stands buying a single item with resistance or a mix of health and resistance is enough to significantly lower a full defense tank's damage output, to the point where life steal can handle them if you avoid being CC locked.

So far every single thread I've seen complaining about tanks destroying squishy targets has had two things in common, the poster was a carry that built no defense, and the poster was a carry that build no resistance penetration. It's almost like they do this on purpose just so they can complain about tanks.

Absolutely love the post mate, hopefully it gets enough upvotes to make the Hot section.

T4underbolt2 votes

Or maybe you should stop being biased and understand that I can't rush spirit visage or abysal mask as first item as ADC or mage because I wouldn't deal any DMG while rammus still completes cinderhulk before I even get half my items and nearly 100-0 me with that alone in duration of a taunt.

redniwediS1 votes

Why rush? You don't have to dump all of your gold into an item the moment you start building it. Hexdrinker and Specter's Cowl are very useful items on their own, and do not require that much of a gold investment. You make it seem like having a single defense item would ruin your build.

T4underbolt3 votes

Imagine ADC with bf and zeal building spectre's cowl. So much usefully DMG he is going to deal. He will just die 1 second later than usual. Or going spectre's howl as xerath when my only item is lost chapter. Same scenario. I deal no DMG compared to enemy mid lane and I still die just second later to that rammus or any other busted tank like sejuani.

redniwediS1 votes

Why is an ADC that early into the game having so much trouble with a tank? Tanks have to buy items to deal damage too you know, they don't just get damage out of thin air.

T4underbolt1 votes

Yes they do. Rammus engaged me having Bani cinder and red smite. I was xerath. Enemy hasn't even came back to lane but I had to back to base because I had no flash at that time and rammus took away 90% of my hp most of it during taunt duration. Fun to play when tank with no items literally murderers you. What is the point of assassins in this game if tanks can do the same. If rammus took wits end in his tanky build I'm sure he could be even more murderous.

Longtowel1 votes

First of all, why did Rammus get to you without the help of a teammate?

Second, if you are in lane, why weren’t you able to stun or at least slow rammus? If you had minions he shouldnt be able to powerball into you.

Thirdly, 90% health in one taunt is impossible. The maths doesn’t add up. If you are still in lane then Rammus would only have level 2-3 taunt. That’s only 1.5 ish seconds, one to two ticks of his ult.

Half health I can believe but 90% is too much for rammus with no items. Besides, even if he did powerball taunt into ult you, you should be able to land a point blank stun immediately out of taunt, followed by a slow and retreat back to turret.

T4underbolt1 votes

Hahaha. Literally same dumb and pointless excuse every time tank DMG is complained about. I DONT KNOW HOW HE CAUGHT ME IN LANE WITHOUT TEAMMATE MAYBE 25447373736 MOVEMENT SPEED AND FLASH?Do you know what logic is? Or you are so biased towards tanks? And sorry but duration of a taunt or not his ultimate has fking huge ass slow. His slow is more than mine.

Longtowel1 votes

What rank are you?

It’s almost as if we are playing different games here.

BigPapaJSwaggins7 votes

I agree and disagree with you. Champions like riven which are duelist/fighters that are designed to 1v1. Should not be 1v1'd by champs that are meant to do mild damage, disrupt and provide large amount of cc, peel, or engage utility. A tank should be able to 1v1 an adc, but a tank should not be able to 1v1 a duelist with even gold and experience.

Apocalypsic5 votes

{quoted}

I agree and disagree with you. Champions like riven which are duelist/fighters that are designed to 1v1. Should not be 1v1'd by champs that are meant to do mild damage, disrupt and provide large amount of cc, peel, or engage utility. A tank should be able to 1v1 an adc, but a tank should not be able to 1v1 a duelist with even gold and experience.

I love being out-traded by tanks and watching their health bars regen :^)

Velzard of Koz7 votes

If a melee champion has engaged upon you, a ranged champion, while they are on even ground with you (full health, building optimally for their champion and you doing the same), you should absolutely lose the fight if you do not widen the gap.

Yes, because there are no champions who engage really fast, with wide hitbox, from large distance or outright by just point-click and they don't have target-sticking.

Camille has supposedly conditional engaging tool and it's already pain in ass not to get engaged, for example. Xin engaging on you isn't really him showing insane mechanicz, unless you are ADC guarded by four pseudosupports at which point the Xin player would complain.

If your logic was applied we would have to rebalance all Divers to Warwick-like champion, otherwise Divers autowin. I'd like to see you enjoy Hecarim running at your ass with Sonic speed and MS buffs afterwards, sticking to you and you being like "Oh it's fine, he used an ability so it's good I cannot win trade against him due to his engage and stick potential".

If you resolve this by Divers having no stick potential then you have to rebalance peel on several classes at once so that Divers won't complain it's easy to avoid them.

When people make such general statements as If league was Rock, Paper, Scissors, pretending that concepts such as "Diver engaging on you and you not widening the gap = you lose" is as simple that each Diver engages equally to justify, that each Diver struggles the same against peel and that each champion can actually widen the gap or is compensated for not being able to.

Fondling Gems7 votes

A big part of why tanks have to do so much damage is due to lifesteal. With lifesteal becoming so prevalent tanks have to do more damage just to be able to damage their targets, and this isn't just in 1v1 situations, this is in teamfights where ADC's get short breaks, shields, and heals to give them time to lifesteal again.

This isn't just for when champs have a single lifesteal item either, tanks need to be able to beat out stacking lifesteal, which has become far easier than in previous seasons. This means that when on targets without or with very little lifesteal tanks end up doing a lot of damage that isn't getting healed off.

Playing a tank isn't fun when you are vs a Fiora with a bloodthirster and a ravenous hydra. When you add in bramblevest Fiora is still healing for 16% of her damage plus a flat 57 on vital proc and an 800ish heal off of ult.

This means that tanks need to do enough damage to y'know, actually lower her health bar. I am not saying they need to win the fight, but Fiora shouldn't be healing off of them except for maybe during her actual ult.

This means that tanks are going to be doing more damage than a Fiora can heal off of late game to everyone, regardless of whether or not they built lifesteal, and since tank damage doesn't scale super hard for most of them that means they will have access to a lot of that damage come mid game. It doesn't matter if you are a fed Fiora or a Xerath, 2 item lucian, or support caught out warding. Tanks needs to be able to do the damage as though you were the first.

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