Nasus's Q change wasn't too bad, but the veigar one means we're heading in a direction I don't like

Tychusfindlay918··67 votes·4,317 views

Instead of making changes to increase game length times, we're simply hyper-buffing the scaling aspects of infinite scale champions.

First, and worst of all, was chogath. Then there was nasus, who isn't that bad since he can only access it during his ultimate, and now veigar is the next to have hyperscaling aspects hyperbuffed. This isn't a good direction riot.

Perhaps it is a more noble goal to make changes that make games longer than 10-15 minutes when games are currently decided, than to make hyperscale champions access their hyperscale faster and better.

Things you can start with:

increase all turret resistances by 15 + uncapped damage ramp up (first 4 shots obviously will be like live, but if you're not doing what you're supposed to when 4 shots is up, you should start getting fucking mauled).

Jungle smite no longer grants HP (perhaps a small offset with gromp/raptors doing 5% less damage overall, but this should still be an overall nerf to jungle clears). This is so that junglers can't healthy clear and then gank lanes at level 2 and snowball the fuck out of them. I'm not sure about bot, but this is a HUGE problem top lane where level 2 ganks almost always end up in you dying because wards early game last for a very short time and have a real long cooldown.

Jungler catchup experience not removed, but perhaps reduced by 30%. That means if junglers get behind because they're being outjungled, there has to be SOME incentive to try and start clearing camps instead of just perma ganking lanes to snowball them and then taking one or two camps and getting ridiculous amounts of exp.

Just those changes alone should be accompanied by game length time increasing by perhaps 5 or 10 or so minutes easily. Nothing too crazy (otherwise hypercarries will be broken because games will always last too long), but enough so that we can maybe tone down some of these hyperscale buffs we've been giving to champions.

If all those changes were done, I'd be fine with:

chogath needs to be nerfed (honestly im fine with this as of right now fuck that champion)

Nasus only partially accesses his q cooldown reduction per ult level (20% level 1, 35% level 2, 50% level 3).

Veigar in his current state would most likely be fine if games lasted longer, he DOES NOT NEED THE CURRENT PBE BUFFS IF THESE CHANGES WERE IMPLEMENTED. He already got a huge ass fucking buff that people forget about when his stacks were reworked to allow him to stack in plenty of more ways than Qing minions.

TL;DR

Chill out on buffing hyperscale champions and maybe try and look at ways to prevent snowballing and games being decided 10-15 minutes in. The three major changes outlined ought to increase game length time easily by 5-10 minutes, nothing too crazy nor too slight.

OP.GG ANALYSIS

http://www.op.gg/champion/veigar/statistics/mid

Veigar seems to be working as intended, with his win rate climbing as game length climbs, and then SKYROCKETING past 40 minutes. The problem is that games are GUARANTEED to be decided at around 15 minutes. If we can change that to games generally being decided at around 25 minutes (because even decided games can generally be stalled for a certain amount of time depending on the skill of the team that is behind), then I guarantee you veigar's win rate will climb healthily to at least 50% (no buffs needed range) without the need for any buffs.

94 Comments

BobaFlautist37 votes

If you wanna nerf jungle sustain and catch up xp by that much, you have to buff back up the rewards for actually clearing the jungle.

Ben Sharpio1 votes

never remove catch up exp. Nidalee/shyv/graves/elise will ruin this game for a very long time if that happens.

Tychusfindlay91810 votes

[{quoted}](name=Corsair Sion,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5bm8ROGE,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-09-15T06:04:48.575+0000)

never remove catch up exp. Nidalee/shyv/graves/elise will ruin this game for a very long time if that happens.

Tone it down, no one said anything about eradicating it.

Salson27 votes

Nothing wrong with that, would make junglers chose between clearing and ganking.

If I survive 2 ganks my reward should be level and gold advantage for my jungler, so our 2v2 becomes stronger. Currently you don't really get shit.

Ionian Vulpix15 votes

I guess games are too short for his liking?

ChaosThief1 votes

Get out.

That was a low blow.

Ionian Vulpix1 votes

Wow, someone certainly has a short fuse.

A Dizzy Lulu7 votes

Except Veigar's buffs doesn't really do anything other than give him slightly more clear and zoning late game

Divewing22 votes

That's not an issue by itself.

It's an issue where the only reason Veigar SEEMS to be underperforning is because the meta isnt in his favour.

Now if the meta were to shift to more late game orientated, with no change to veigar, this could be the buff that makes him ludicrously broken.

THAT is OP's issue. The buff itself isn't a big deal right now because you could probably end the game before it matters, but what if the meta changes to when you CANT.

Starcraft243ver2 votes

The problem of veigar is half the roaster can straight up avoid his cage.

Played a game vs ezreal, katarina, shaco, seju, jax as veigar.

The first 3 could just ignore my cage totaly, the last 2 couldnt dash through but they could avoid being caugh quite easily. The cage zone should ground champions in it :d

kasfas3 votes

Yea, then that would just make him the most broken champion ever with an ultimate level ability on a 10 second cooldown with a massive execute and well over 1000 ap.

Veigar's cage is one of the most bullshit abilities in the game to have with the amount of damage he does, and it's only acceptable to have as much power as he does when he isn't meta.

I don't think his damage is too bad a balance point (except against tanks) meaning his damage is fair enough, but him ALSO having that massive aoe stun for his team that can catch out ENTIRE TEAMS is what makes him bullshit. To ask to remove ALL counter play from the ability makes him immediately into the number one midlaner in the game due to his ability to stop you from running and one shot you.

No, veigar e definitely doesn't need a ground. In fact any buff to veigar is unwarranted IMO as long as he has his cage in addition to his damage.

Starcraft243ver5 votes

Veigar doesnt deal damages, because you have to hit slow, unreliable, delayed, short ranged skillshot with high cds.

He deals damages to bad unreactive people.

https://i.imgur.com/1WcSO7E.png

Oh, and the multiplication of shields breaks him even more since he can't deal enough damages for his ult to really hurt.

kasfas1 votes

Tell that to my health at which just got half removed from one ability as sion.

Sure he has a hard time hitting his abilities without hitting e first, but if he hits his e you just get one shot no matter how tanky you are. I really doubt you can convince me otherwise because I've played enough games against Veigar to know how much damage he does. Hell, even in this shield meta he can burst straight through you because of how excessive his damage is.

The worst part is Veigars can build tanky without sacrificing significant damage due to his passive. Man that's the second most bulls/*** part about him.


Listen, I'm all for bringing unviable champs into the meta every so often, but I don't want to deal with his stupid ass super powered thresh ult as it is.

If you want to bring Veigar into meta, nerf his e and make the stun not scale ( I think having it be a flat 2 seconds is fine) and then we can talk about buffing him in other ways if he needs it. Until then i don't want to see him in my games.

Starcraft243ver1 votes

but if he hits his e you just get one shot no matter how tanky you are.

That's the problem. There's no such things as "hitting your E" as veigar (except in a chain cc situation). Since it's a delayed ability it's "did my opponent missplayed and ran into my E".

Which is okay at the lower levels, but as you climb you see it's quite easy to avoid veigar's cage.

kasfas1 votes

Then you have to realize that veigar's e is also a trapping tool that keeps you in to be pelted by the enemy team and you realize that his teamfighting is absolutely unbelievable.

Starcraft243ver1 votes

Except if you are one of the increasing number of champions with blinks who can freely escape.

kasfas1 votes

But you seem to forget that very few champs actually have blinks in their kit, many of which are ults, have a significant channel time, aren't controllable or have some other restriction placed upon them.

The list of all in game "blinks":

Akali's Twilight Shroud Ekko's Phase Dive and Chronobreak Elise's Rappel Ezreal's Arcane Shift Fiddlesticks' Crowstorm Kassadin's Riftwalk Katarina's Shunpo LeBlanc's Distortion (2nd cast) and Mimic Distortion (2nd cast) Lissandra's Glacial Path (2nd cast) Master Yi's Alpha Strike Pantheon's Grand Skyfall Ryze's Realm Warp Shaco's Deceive Shen's Stand United Tahm Kench's Abyssal Voyage Twisted Fate's Gate Yasuo's Last Breath Zed's Living Shadow (2nd cast) and Death Mark (2nd cast)

And don't say flash, because you wasted a 14 second cooldown on an 2 minute one. That is incredibly worth.

Starcraft243ver1 votes

Thats 19 champions.

You can also put in the list every single HP bag fighter/tank that veigar can barely damage.

LordGeovanni1 votes

More like veigar forces you to stop playing the game to move or insta die and the change he is getting reinforces that so you he either disrupts or deletes you more often. and even when he doesnt hit that that sets up his easy q with where you have to dodge that also chunks cause of its high ap ratio and low cooldown.

KoKoboto2 votes

Doubtful. For starters when Veigar is played mid lane it is very difficult him to effectively stack and if he just tries to stack he'll be pushed in and forced to miss CS. Anyways, let's say on average you get 200 stacks.

Veigar W 8s CD, 4.8s CD at 40%cdr, at 200 stacks it becomes 3.1s (it stacks multiplicatively btw)

So he isn't gonna become ludicrously broken just because his 1.25s delay burst move is comes off CD 1.7s sooner.

MuffledGarbage1 votes

Considering how riot has buffed LeeSin when the meta isn't favoring him right now, buffed Nasus when the meta was making him worthless(they did a good job on this change in particular), and buffedAzir after a while which is bringing him some much needed love from being out of the meta for a while...

Riot is probably going to continue this trend that they specifically stated with Kalista and Caitlyn was that they "didn't want to buff things to bring them into meta instead change the meta to allow those champs to come in".

Riot is doing the opposite of what the said they were doing, but as long as it's balanced properly, whatever changes riot makes are fine.

Veigar will generally have the same weaknesses as before this PBE change(if it goes through) and will be shut down in the same way after the PBE change goes through.

The only thing that is really overpowered about the change would be if he's against a bad team/player and gets to have enough stacks to make his W a giant machine-gun of meteor-magic mashing blasts.

If a Veigar reaches that point, he deserves to have that power because it rewards him and his team for reaching his powerspike in the game. We need lategame champs like Nasus Sion and Veigar because they are some of the only champs who can deal with ADCs lategame.

If we don't give them the power that they need to teamfight lategame(Sion W healthgain for tankiness, Nasus Q stack oneshots, Veigar passive AP stack time bomb) then ADCs will be uncontested lategame and be near-unstoppable without backup and even then it's hard to not lose a squishier teammate.

With a meta shift, gearing towards lategame we would see the ADC pool becoming larger and more champs that have a lot of up-front burst be used to counter the ADCs.

We would also see more late-game oriented champs such as Ornn Sion Cassiopeia Camille Veigar Riven Akali AurelionSol Gangplank Karthus Jax Kayle Kayn Mordekaiser Swain Tryndamere Taric Shen Ryze

Malothere1 votes

{quoted}

Considering how riot has buffed LeeSin when the meta isn't favoring him right now, buffed Nasus when the meta was making him worthless(they did a good job on this change in particular), and buffedAzir after a while which is bringing him some much needed love from being out of the meta for a while...

Riot is probably going to continue this trend that they specifically stated with Kalista and Caitlyn was that they "didn't want to buff things to bring them into meta instead change the meta to allow those champs to come in".

Riot is doing the opposite of what the said they were doing, but as long as it's balanced properly, whatever changes riot makes are fine.

Veigar will generally have the same weaknesses as before this PBE change(if it goes through) and will be shut down in the same way after the PBE change goes through.

The only thing that is really overpowered about the change would be if he's against a bad team/player and gets to have enough stacks to make his W a giant machine-gun of meteor-magic mashing blasts.

If a Veigar reaches that point, he deserves to have that power because it rewards him and his team for reaching his powerspike in the game. We need lategame champs like Nasus Sion and Veigar because they are some of the only champs who can deal with ADCs lategame.

If we don't give them the power that they need to teamfight lategame(Sion W healthgain for tankiness, Nasus Q stack oneshots, Veigar passive AP stack time bomb) then ADCs will be uncontested lategame and be near-unstoppable without backup and even then it's hard to not lose a squishier teammate.

With a meta shift, gearing towards lategame we would see the ADC pool becoming larger and more champs that have a lot of up-front burst be used to counter the ADCs.

We would also see more late-game oriented champs such as Ornn Sion Cassiopeia Camille Veigar Riven Akali AurelionSol Gangplank Karthus Jax Kayle Kayn Mordekaiser Swain Tryndamere Taric Shen Ryze

The cooldown on his W is hard capped somewhere between 3-4 seconds even with 99% W crd with 2000 stacks and 40% crd with items

Malothere1 votes

{quoted}

it's not

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSlA09C91sc

at the time of writing it was capped but it was buggy and i gess they fixed it XD

MuffledGarbage1 votes

The cap itself was legit the bug.

it's supposed to be uncapped as checked by the latest surrender@20 rioter notes

EDIT: forgot to add link [http://www.surrenderat20.net/2017/09/915-pbe-update.html#balance

Starcraft243ver1 votes

WE NEED THIS ! <3

Cowseed5 votes

Super charge the first turret shot after every 5 minutes. Let's see if squishies dive now

[sg-miss-fortune]

LichKing2343 votes

[sg-jinx] Squishey lives matter to

Spoofghoul4 votes

Yea we need more Sion buffs

i agree his scaling takes too long

we need to make the health he farms into flat damage reduction post resistances and then give him an extra 1000 base health to compensate

that would be fair

Glory ln Death5 votes

You're just a filthy, biased Sion main!

Spoofghoul1 votes

I . . , i ..

Ok i wont deny it you got me there

Well for the most part anyway,

i'm not a sion main

DeadUnborn4 votes

you forget vayne

MLDzXnRRR3 votes

Veigar is just a very bad Syndra that conitionally can get very strong late-late game, if you have other reliable AOE CC on your team, so he can actually land his abilities.

An Undead brat3 votes

Yeah because he definitely can't click on you to delete you exactly as Syndra.

And he definitely doesn't have the best non-ultimate teamfight CC ability in the game.

MLDzXnRRR4 votes

His ult won't burst you as hard Syndra's from full to 0. It is an execute not an opener. His CC was good pre-rework and he was still considered unreliable. Now is garbage in league of blinks and dashes.

An Undead brat4 votes
  1. Syndra's R doesn't 100-0 you anymore either.
  2. Yes, with enough AP (approximately he hits the amount in finishing midgame), he'll 100-0 you only with his ult, even after the MYMU change.
  3. Event Horizon stops dashes and stuns you anyway.
  4. It's a huge ass area and the delay is not even that huge, there are way more delayed spells and still are hard to dodge. You won't notice in in the chaos of a teamfight and it can close your whole team in a small area where you are vulnerable to any AoE from the enemy team and incapable escaping from their melee carries/turning in their ranged carries.
Nanuk Pihoqahiak12 votes

Just a note about your second point:

He'd need 2,000ap to deal 1,500 damage with his ultimate, which comes to 1,850 when you factor in the base damage. He isn't instakilling anyone from full to dead with just his R, seeing as he'll NEVER hit anywhere close to 2,000ap.

An Undead brat1 votes

That's basically irrelevant because the scenario of you being 100% full health unless in the Fountain is abstract, you always get his by some AA/ability/epic monster or something - otherways I wouldn't be seeing Veigar oneshotting people from basically full health and let's not quibble with "But you said full health, not basically full health" because that's not producive for the discussion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEzj-FjItJI

Look for example at the Lucian at 1:20, Syndra hardly deals this damage with her ultimate unless super fed.

SephAgro6 votes

your point is that the de facto single target burst mage in the game one shotting squishies with a full rotation combo is bullshit? jesus have a down vote

Nanuk Pihoqahiak6 votes

Not here to really debate with you. If you didn't mean what you said, which was:

"Yes, with enough AP (approximately he hits the amount in finishing midgame), he'll 100-0 you only with his ult, even after the MYMU change."

You shouldn't have said it. Either way, he needs insane amounts of AP to kill someone that's even at 80 percent health, as it only goes up by 1.5 percent per 1 percent they are missing, as I recall.

MLDzXnRRR5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sexy Bisex Plant,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5bm8ROGE,comment-id=0004000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-15T10:39:48.273+0000)

  1. Syndra's R doesn't 100-0 you anymore either.
  2. Yes, with enough AP (approximately he hits the amount in finishing midgame), he'll 100-0 you only with his ult, even after the MYMU change.
  3. Event Horizon stops dashes and stuns you anyway.
  4. It's a huge ass area and the delay is not even that huge, there are way more delayed spells and still are hard to dodge. You won't notice in in the chaos of a teamfight and it can close your whole team in a small area where you are vulnerable to any AoE from the enemy team and incapable escaping from their melee carries/turning in their ranged carries.

You can't 100 to 0 anyone with 175 / 250 / 325 (+ 75% AP) which is the damage that you do to a full HP target. Event horizon has a cast animation and a delay!!! You will get 100 to 0-ed by a champs that can cancel animations or just right click several times before it goes off. I've seen countless times people to walk out of it. Not dash, just walk out of it. Just because you got deleted by a Veigar doesn't mean that the champ is strong. I play him often as a support and while he can be fun, he is far-far away from being even viable in any lane.

General Esdeath 1 votes

What's the Veigar change?

Sad Tyrant1 votes

For ever 50 stacks of his passive his W gets 10% CDR

EkyonKun3 votes

...This...has a cap...right?

Pandemic Punch3 votes

I wonder... It would be faster than Karthus Q at 500 stacks!

[sg-janna]

Sasogwa3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Delusional,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5bm8ROGE,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-15T08:31:27.672+0000)

I wonder... It would be faster than Karthus Q at 500 stacks!

[sg-janna]

8*0.9^10 = 2.7894275208 s CD Compared to Karthus 1s CD

So no.

note: for the calculation, 10% base cdr multiplicatively is equivalent to multiplying the CD by 0.9, and 500 stacks is 10*50 stacks, so 10 iterations.

Automated Riven1 votes

What about the 40% cdr otherwise tho.

Sasogwa1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5bm8ROGE,comment-id=000200000000000000000001,timestamp=2017-09-16T14:39:10.179+0000)

What about the 40% cdr otherwise tho.

The changé applies to base cd of the spell, so cdr applies normally after the calculation.

Sad Tyrant3 votes

ummmm...... Idk

But they did say it stacked in Multiples (SCREW THE ACTUAL WORD BECAUSE I CAN"T SAY IT AND I I CAN"T SPELL IT EITHER )

so 90% then 81% then 72.9%, don't know how it stacks with regular CDR, maybe the same

Theorchero1 votes

{quoted}

...This...has a cap...right?

No cap. There's also a documented change where it also increases how fast it falls.

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