ADC-related changes, yet the same problem remains.

Snowman Arc··5 votes·3,576 views

And honestly, it might even create more. The original problem is still there. ADCs still have access to the most gold generation and the safest gold generation as well. Long range easy farm, 2 vs 2 lane, which means more kill possibilities, gold for kills + assists, more first tower options, melee supports securing cannon minions etc.

The approach Riot wants to take, if the changes are ideal, will only solve the problem of just a particular scenario; ADC in the bottom lane. What Riot wants to do is tweak certain items in stats and in price so that the spike isn't as immediate and the extra gold generation won't provide them the same items as before. Again, in an ideal scenario where the changes are a perfect match, this only helps in bringing bottom lane ADCs in line with other champions in other lanes. But there are other problems rising from this.

The most obvious one is what happens to ADCs who are viable in another (solo) lane. Since those lanes don't have as much access to gold generation as the bottom lane does, they miss out hard on the nerfs. For example, a Lucian mid works now and isn't broken, because the current mid gold generation with the current price and stats of his itemization are matching well. If the prices get higher and the stats get weaker though, while the gold generation stays the same, it creates a problem for them. Indirectly, it's a big nerf to Lucian in a solo lane and to any other marksman that can be used as a solo laner.

The other problem that arises is that with the fact that gold generation in bottom lane being higher than other lanes, while ADCs get indirectly nerfed through itemization, what happens if some other role takes residence there? What if mages start playing bot lane now? Not saying it's best, because mages like solo XP for higher-level abilities, but there can always be compensation regarding gold generation from bot lane. For example, an Orianna can have a decent laning phase even in a 2v2 scenario. Decent farming, decent trading with her AoE as well. Assuming she does get more gold overall, she will be allowed to reach powerspikes earlier than intended, similar to how ADCs currently get to their powerspikes earlier than intended.

The general consensus here is that the problem isn't the ADCs or their itemizations themselves. It's how fast and safely they can get to buying those items compared to everyone else. They need to remove certain elements that grant ADCs too much gold. The 2v2 aspect is already a lot. Having more opportunities to kill someone (or die) means more kills = more gold, and there's also assist gold. There's also first tower gold as well. Since you can't really do much about the 2v2, you need to remove the hard snowball after the first tower is taken. Remove, or lower, the first tower gold bonus. Actually, just let it give some bonus gold just so there can be incentive to take it, but not much to break the game.

TL;DR: Bot lane gold generation needs to be nerfed in order to fix the problems.

32 Comments

Big Lincoln4 votes

you don't make more gold than solo lanes unless you're getting kills.

Having more opportunities to kill someone (or die) means more kills = more gold,

then dont die

Snowman Arc7 votes

First tower gold isn't more gold? More chances at getting kills isn't more gold? Gold from kills + assists isn't more gold? More reliable farming isn't more gold? Relic shield supports securing cannon minion for you isn't more gold?

Big Lincoln5 votes

I get first tower in top more than it happens in bottom. chances =/= actually reliably getting more gold. I could pick up doubles in top without a kill in bot. does that mean top makes more gold? relic support doesn't actually make more gold for you. what if they get zoned off it?

the impotent antiadc jerk is getting old

Snowman Arc5 votes

[deleted]

Big Lincoln2 votes

yeah, have fun when adc gets nerfed and you still don't go anywhere lul

Snowman Arc5 votes

How do you even know if I can or can't play other roles, or if I can be successful on ADC. Probably based off your 44% winrate.

Big Lincoln1 votes

janna one trick

lol

Häxel1 votes

You know that riot wants to change gold generation? They change it so you get more gold again for solokills instead of teamkills. So while 2v2 are 2 possible kills, killing a guy solo in top, mid or jungle will provide you more Gold. Also solo lane gives more exp so you lv up faster and get important Skills like Ult faster. In a 2v2 Lane harass is also stronger and if you not have a heal/shield support or this one runs out of mana, together with nerfed sustain on adcs in general there can less be farmed. What changes now for Lucian mid for exampel? Well Lucian mid stays probably in a realy weak Place cause not only has he there not a Range advantage but a disadvantage: He will also have weaker Sustain and weaker Powerspikes while Mages get their mana early buffed. What happens to possible Lucian Top? Well the later powerspike and less sustain remains and he remains to be an easiliy to dive Champion cause he remains an adc and this means while being alone he is vulnerabel.

Olga Rajecka3 votes

Pretty much. Basically, you gank botlane, they recall, you 3 - man the turret and it's easily down before 10 minute mark.

Thefrostyviking3 votes

I was interested in your post.

But then i read this part.

The most obvious one is what happens to ADCs who are viable in another (solo) lane. Since those lanes don't have as much access to gold generation as the bottom lane does, they miss out hard on the nerfs. For example, a Lucian mid works now and isn't broken, because the current mid gold generation with the current price and stats of his itemization are matching well. If the prices get higher and the stats get weaker though, while the gold generation stays the same, it creates a problem for them. Indirectly, it's a big nerf to Lucian in a solo lane and to any other marksman that can be used as a solo laner.

Lucian mid?

Really? The pick with 45,5 % winrate and ~1% pickrate for plati+?

There isnt even a single decent one that can be played outside botlane, except Corki and he still sits just below 49% winrate.

Safe? Marksmen are not any safer than mages, they get a tear and suddenly they can farm for days, and when they start running out they just burn the next wave as quickly as possible before recalling and running back before the next wave can be pushed into their tower.'

And Ori will never be played botlane as long as fights happen constantly pre 1-2 items.

If she cant reliably kill the enemy marksman/support in that time she´ll end up being burnt out and just get dumpstered if she keeps trying to fight.

Poke? How about a lifesteal rush meta to counter that.

OP your view of the issue´s are missing quite a few points and are based on the weirdest things.

Lucian mid indeed.

Snowman Arc1 votes

Lucian has a reliable kit to be played in a solo lane. A lot of single target damage, with a lot of burst, abilities that deal damage and some mobility on his E. He should be viable as a solo laner, that's what I'm saying. Right now, he isn't that strong, and the current changes on the PBE will make him ever weaker.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

He shouldnt be viable as a solo laner at all, he is a marksman and has the privileges of one!

It means he should carry the downsides of one as well.

Burst? Relies on being able to steadily stand and hit his enemy, also a lot of crit and AD post some point, bug mages specialize in landing abilties and running away and assassins are generally better at burst than Lucian will ever be if things are well.

So, he suffers against those with too much more range or those who have short and easy to hit combo´s.....or those who can just engage on and kill him 1v1 from a early point.

Marksmen generally rely a ton on their supports to ever secure a kill in the early game, a sign for things having gone wrong is when they dont.

Wrong as in enemy misplaying horribly or something game wise being wrong.

Snowman Arc1 votes

He is not the typical ADC either. He has 0 steroids for AS or AD, he has short AA range, and his mobility spell can be on a very short cooldown, when he naturally gets enough CDR and gets passive autos off. All these are going against the typical adc, like Trist, Cait, Varus, Ashe etc.

He is not the typical solo laner either. He doesn't exactly rely on abilities to deal damage, thus not a mage, he doesn't get tanky stats, thus not a bruiser, no CC, thus not a tank, and no assassination threat and escape as an assassin. But, he does have quite a lot of single target damage (very bruiser-like) that he can deal in a short amount of time (assassin - like), has range on his autos and waveclear on his Q (mage - like). I guess he has something like a sustained + burst damage? Kinda like Syndra, she can poke with her basic abilities and then nuke you with R?

A good E - AA - W - AA - Q AA combo by lucian is a very big burst, especially against some mage. As it stands right now, that damage is fine, but he just doesn't spike as hard later in the game, and he also doesn't spike as fast as other ADCs do through bot lane.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

His steroid lies in his passive, the double hit is super potent, especially with high crit chance.

And while its true that its different from the usual its also true that when he doesnt get dumpstered in nerfs he is almost always in the top 3 among the marksmen, a lanebully and still functioning lategame champ.

If going with a critbuild then just like corki he obtains assassination potential pretty quickly, issue is however that he wants lane dominance earlier and crit takes gold.

A good mage will also never let lucian get a E-AA-W-AA-Q-AA off, its a cheese that worked in the start but as people learned how to deal with it he started dropping rapidly.

And then he got hit with nerfs just to make sure he´d go to the bottom.

Riot seems to have taken complaints regarding this guy pretty seriously and decided to drop him in a dumpster until he can be reworked. '

For while he works he´s oppressive as hell and when he doesnt he is just pure garbage.

Nyarlathοtep2 votes

Wait did you really think that riot would be able to address botlanes problems? Damn i have to say, i admire your positivity.

Snowman Arc5 votes

More like a statement to why the changes might not hit the mark.

Glory972 votes

I disagree.

  1. It's not as easy to get gold as adc as you claim. With another nerf to fleet footwork, and a nerf to base health regen, it's much more difficult to sustain through all harrass and get all gold. A good brand or zyra supp will make it a lot more difficult to get gold.
  2. If the midlaner and the adc farm equally well, and get equal ammount of kills/assists, midlane will have the same ammount of gold as adcs. Botlane generates more gold, but this additional gold is on the support not the adc. Midlaners can roam to everywhere on the map, and compensate for the fact that they are not getting 2 kills from their lane everytime. Toplaners have tp (though tp is not exactly an equal compensation).
  3. I do think the itemisation in general is bad. I don't like the fact that adcs can burst squishies just as fast as assassins, but also wear down tanks.

Your argument is kind of very focused on small details, (one paragraph for midlane lucian, another one that only talks about how 1 more potential kill turns gold generation one-sided, while the actual impact of this is not really that huge). And you somehow contradict yourself. You say, that increasing item price is bad, and getting gold easily is also bad. From my perspective those are pretty much the same, because now you need much more gold for the same effectiveness, which is in fact harder to get.

I'm looking forward to the adc changes. I think theses changes are exactly what the game needs right now.

Snowman Arc1 votes
  1. Yeah, those changes will definitely hit some of the sustain and overall ability to stay alive, but still, farming from range with AAs will be the safest way to cs, thus getting more gold.

  2. Covered in 1, I assume that ADCs in general will get more farm. I try to talk about standard gold, because roaming won't always work.

Your last point, one more potential kill does add up, because how snowball works. You might be getting that one item with the extra gold, and if you manage to kill them again, then you get even more ahead. Also, the price increase is good in terms of bot lane ADCs, while it makes solo lane ADCs weaker, if there are no compensations there.

chipndip12 votes

I mean, the very foundation of the post sucks, but it'd take a lot of effort to break down and explain WHY it sucks...

Snowman Arc1 votes

It would probably take a brain as well, which I don't think you have.

chipndip12 votes

So it takes a brain to cough up the totally false information that regular gold generation in bot lane is somehow greater than that of top or mid lane?

FurriesAreHot1 votes

I think the changes are great for now. They reduced Marksman early power and reduced the spikes they get from their items. We got what we wanted, and we should see how these changes take effect before we think the “what if” scenarios.

Snowman Arc3 votes

Well, it's a definite start to battle the existing meta, I'm just stating how this might solve one problem and create another, by not directly hitting the source, but the things that use it.

FurriesAreHot1 votes

There will always be problems created by solutions in a game like League of Legends, that's why after (8?) years the game is still receiving balance changes. I'd also like to establish what the "source" of the issue is, since I believe the source was the early power of Marksman being too high, and the spike of zeal items being too large. What do you think the source is?

I'd also like to thank you for your "legitimate" if you will, response. Calm, and speaking with logic rather than feeling, a rarity on the Gameplay boards.

GigglesO1 votes

Except that item that gives a 100% chance of crit on first hit with 65 ad and 25% attack speed... gonna be op af.

FurriesAreHot1 votes

We need to wait and see. It could be scaling, we don’t know.

GigglesO1 votes

scale off of what? That thing is flat stats... 25% attack speed and 65 ad is alot even without passives.

FurriesAreHot1 votes

Is the item fully revealed? I didn't see it anywhere, apologies. Could I be given its exact stats?

GigglesO1 votes

Stormrazor B.F. Sword + Pickaxe + Dagger + 925 gold (3400 total) +65 Attack Damage +25% Attack Speed UNIQUE Passive: If you haven't attacked in the last 2.5 seconds, your next basic attack will critically strike. UNIQUE Passive: When you critically strike, gain 25% attack speed and 8% movement speed for 1.5 seconds.

FurriesAreHot1 votes

Much appreciated.

Seeing that it is the same price as the current Infinity edge, I don't think it will be too bad, if an issue at all. It gives no Crit, and 65 attack damage and 25% attack speed isnt too great for a 3400 item.

The only crit that you can get is every 2.5 seconds of not attacking , which is a huge drop in damage. The attack speed steroid is only 1.5 seconds, which isnt all that much.

Thats my take on it.

GigglesO1 votes

Is it really though? Is 20% crit and 65 ad really as good as 65 ad and 50% as and a 100% crit for just not attacking for 2.5 seconds? That is alot of stats to be in one item.

FurriesAreHot1 votes

Thing is, IE has the 25% raw damage increase, which is just huge. 100% crit for not attacking for 2.5 seconds isnt that great when 1, its a single crit, and 2, 2.5s is a long time in combat.

More from Gameplay

More by Snowman Arc