Playing off-meta yourself makes you more tolerant to picks you dont see often.

Craft Zeppelin·Apr 30, 2017·37 votes·2,322 views

Just a while ago I watched a certain streamer who was around hjgh diamond playing his strange...thresh top. At first I thought it was some maniacs fantasy, but the more I watch I realised that he is picking it for a reason (counterpicks. teamfight potential) and is confident he can win. I tried it out on some normals games for some giggles and practice, so I copied his build and was quite surprised it works perfectly in situations that are meant for it. Now Im actually playing it on ranked and having...well better results than my support thresh games. (Who would have thought yasuo would lose to a thresh with a cutlass...The "?" ping spams were insane on both sides.)

I must say the community needs to watch more matches other than pros, and determine once more what works and what doesnt. The game is far more deeper than it appears.

58 Comments

Fed by Snu SnuApr 30, 201713 votes

I'd say the biggest problem is Riot themselves, since they are the ones who have enforced a very strict meta code and will swiftly nerf champions as soon as they stray off their intended position.

Chromatic EagleApr 30, 201715 votes

They're not completely against the idea, but mostly when those picks become op.

nice tableMay 1, 20175 votes

if any off meta champion hit ahris or iverns win ratio for a hour they would be disabled and nerfed to the ground, its not about things being op its about riots opinion on what should be played.

Mira Arya EntheMay 1, 20174 votes

Some things are just toxic when played a certain way. Like Lulu top. Thank goodness Riot does enforce meta to an extent.

nice tableMay 1, 20171 votes

i can see how it could be argued that ahri isn't toxic but ivern pretty much takes the cake when it comes to being aids.

Craft ZeppelinApr 30, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fed by Snu Snu,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5Nb1jk0L,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-04-30T15:31:19.821+0000)

I'd say the biggest problem is Riot themselves, since they are the ones who have enforced a very strict meta code and will swiftly nerf champions as soon as they stray off their intended position.

Its just sad where there are exploitable old-school gaming fun, this is also has become a sport.

...lulu top, soraka mid (in a small voice)

Spicy RiceMay 1, 20178 votes

Pre-rework lane raka was stage 4 cancer, and you know it

Sir FuzziApr 30, 20177 votes

My problem is most off-meta I see is 'LOL I RAN A SUPPORT AD' and they rush crit. Look, I get it, when youtubers have four teammates who are literally on board to make the off-meta build work, it probably works well. But that's true of just about anything, if five people actively work for a common goal. Most commonly, these 'off-meta builds' are just idiots trying to grandstand and be cool because it's their playstyle that's lacking and they think off-meta means good just because, you know, it's not meta. But when one armor build will shut down your entire character's function outside of some small utility (and most scales to AP anyway).

I get it; somebody who's probably put a lot of time into working individual numbers has determined a good off-meta build. But did you put in the work? Did you figure out the why rather than just the what of the build?

I encourage breaking the meta. Hell, I encourage literally anything except blindly copying crap, and most off-meta builds are just people knocking off what youtubers did because they're too lame to come up with their own crap, or too crappy to make even a meta build work.

These are usually people who think Nidalee and Lux are overpowered.

Hollow MiraclesMay 1, 20175 votes

I'm okay with off-meta when off-meta means something that the person has thought through. Your Thresh top example is a good one, and there are a lot of other slightly weird top-laners/junglers that also make sense.

I'm not okay with AP Trundle mid, ADC Veigar, AD/AS Elise top, or any other shit that people are clearly doing just to troll. No amount of playing off-meta things myself will ever make me tolerant of people and builds like these.

5000000000000000May 1, 20171 votes

Veigar bot is actually decent, provided you're not building AD on him. His weak early game can be mitigated by having a support, since Event Horizon is a strong disengage tool already. Elise also has a massive AS steroid (5-25% AS passively, 60-140% AS for 3 seconds) on top of high base damages. There are safer picks, but AD/AS Elise isn't completely outclassed by another champion.

AtanchanMay 1, 20171 votes

AD or hybrid Veigar does sound like it'd work, too, although any situation where it'd be better than AP is probably hella rare. Still, he does have his Event Horizon you mentioned, and his natural AP scaling means that building AD heavy would lead to doing solid mixed damage.

It's really clearly not a thoughtless build, although whether or not it's anything but "usable" ( strictly speaking, pretty much anything ranged can be built AD and not be abysmal ) does require more than just theory crafting.

Craft ZeppelinMay 1, 20171 votes

{quoted}

AD or hybrid Veigar does sound like it'd work, too, although any situation where it'd be better than AP is probably hella rare. Still, he does have his Event Horizon you mentioned, and his natural AP scaling means that building AD heavy would lead to doing solid mixed damage.

It's really clearly not a thoughtless build, although whether or not it's anything but "usable" ( strictly speaking, pretty much anything ranged can be built AD and not be abysmal ) does require more than just theory crafting.

There was tank veigar last year. makes him tanky enough to shove his way through enemy fire to press that ult on the adc.

Praetor NotoriasMay 1, 20171 votes

AP bottoms work very well against supports that build coin. Usually defenses bottom get loaded into Armor, but without any AD output botlane you can force them into suboptimal defensive builds that cater to the AD jungle/Mid.

ZT XperimentorApr 30, 20173 votes

Unfortunately the meta-maniacs will probably flame you regardless if you do well, however I agree people need to learn how to be flexible; not just in playstyle, but also in expectations.

Mira Arya EntheMay 1, 20172 votes

M.E.T.A. Most Effective Tactic Available. There is a reason it is preferred.

It has the lowest variance in achieving reliable wins. It works.

LankPantsMay 1, 20175 votes

Meta isn't an acronym, it's a word. Whoever came up with that acronym is clever, but they fit it to the word, not the other way around.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta

It stems from the Greek word beyond and has relations to abstraction. The meta-game is basically an abstraction of the game, it's just talking about the game as if the actual game didn't matter, Lee Sin is in the meta regardless of whether he is in the current game. What meta game means in plain English is "Beyond the game".

ZT XperimentorMay 1, 20171 votes

But doesn't always wins, why do you think there's an anti-meta team every season?

5000000000000000May 1, 20171 votes

Meta is the most reliable strategy, but even that has counters.

Troll for TrumpApr 30, 20173 votes

Then you see the "offmeta" build has a 30% WR

CannabisOverlordApr 30, 20172 votes

Mordekaiser 49% on This God

ImNotGioApr 30, 20173 votes

If I go off meta, its usually for counter picks. Like Top Tank Braum against a Riven . Or Full AP Sejuani against Yasuo (no one ever expects that much damage from her).

FaustavianApr 30, 20172 votes

Might I have the name of this streamer? So that I may observe it in action?

EvanThomasApr 30, 20172 votes

What was the name of the streamer?

RenownedWheat42Apr 30, 20171 votes

I get some hardcore flame whenever I lock in Tahm Kench for Top/Jungle in the matchmaking lobby, and it continues till I get my first gank in at level 2. People don't like off-meta because they don't see it as much, that's all. I've even seen attack speed Leona junglers wreck face.

Off-meta games are the most fun for me.

Craft ZeppelinApr 30, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I get some hardcore flame whenever I lock in Tahm Kench for Top/Jungle in the matchmaking lobby, and it continues till I get my first gank in at level 2. People don't like off-meta because they don't see it as much, that's all. I've even seen attack speed Leona junglers wreck face.

Off-meta games are the most fun for me.

I think it is because most of the part people find security in top tier picks. But the wierd thing is, people do still pick silly with "meta" picks and disregard comp or counters. Like when I see a off-meta pick, I try to think what is the person thinking and then decide to dodge or not. But most of the time it works somehow with the element of surprise.

Like even I didint know thresh hooks will still be attached to GPs face even if he ate a orange before I tried it. That first blood was nasty.

DarkDeamonDragonMay 2, 20171 votes

I remember when Kench first came out and a lot of players were taking him top and jungle. How easily they forget how well he would do outside the support role.

ValeckseraiApr 30, 20171 votes

Bard top is one of my favorite off meta things to do. They picked Riven? Bard. They picked Kayle? Bard. They picked Yasuo? ... pick someone else, that matchup is cancer. He's not good for fighting everyone, but he's AMAZING when you do use him against the champions that he counters.

MechakaiserApr 30, 20171 votes

Tank top Malzahar before the nerfs was a godlike counter to all the Lee Sin/Yasuo/Renektons who got themselves in sticky situations.

A lane bully that could initiate fights, peel for his adc, tank, do okey damage and was great for taking objectives. I would flash+ult into the adc/mid, the passive+banshees veil made it almost imposible for them to stop me, and landing 3 or 4 aoe silences during extended fights was devastating for them, all while my voidlings had enough damage to shred any squishy that got too close (Black Cleaver used to be stupidly strong with them)

I remember getting constantly flamed when I played him, they usually stopped after the fifth solo kill or when I teleported bot for an easy double kill.

Craft ZeppelinApr 30, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Tank top Malzahar before the nerfs was a godlike counter to all the Lee Sin/Yasuo/Renektons who got themselves in sticky situations.

A lane bully that could initiate fights, peel for his adc, tank, do okey damage and was great for taking objectives. I would flash+ult into the adc/mid, the passive+banshees veil made it almost imposible for them to stop me, and landing 3 or 4 aoe silences during extended fights was devastating for them, all while my voidlings had enough damage to shred any squishy that got too close (Black Cleaver used to be stupidly strong with them)

I remember getting constantly flamed when I played him, they usually stopped after the fifth solo kill or when I teleported bot for an easy double kill.

Malz is a stupidly strong counter to melees who need to hit minons to activate their kit. I actually play malz a lot and the crystal sceptre, cleaver build on malz mains reddit is stupidly strong against melee tops.

...it also has the tendancy to troll enemies by building hybrid and forcing tanks into a ultimatum of wasting their gold.

SpoofghoulApr 30, 20171 votes

You sure werent the only one doing that haha

i got flame for it too

although i don't get flamed too much for picking off meta

it's often just when things go sideways, even though none of it is my fault i get blamed because i picked off meta and thats why they didn't ward and got assraped by lee

their lack of wards and missplays and accidental flashes is all because im chillin top with bard or malzahar

SlaktarTaskenApr 30, 20171 votes

I once played Jax into a toplane Thresh, he literally made me his bitch as he had all the tools to stuff my engages or gimp my escape if I was getting ganked.,not to mention lantern the jungler/midlaner on top of me as I struggled like a toddler in quicksand.

Toplane Thresh's are a special breed and they're generally highly skilled, people really do underestimate how strong he can actually be, especially against binary melee champs.

That being said, I agree with you OP, we really need to see more off-meta picks and fanbois should really stop riding the pro's d***s. There are ways to play this game out there that are extremely effective even though they aren't meta.

FaustavianApr 30, 20171 votes

;)

SparksFFFApr 30, 20171 votes

off meta can be very fun...i like playing a Shyvana ap/tank hybrid in some of these special modes and aram...it is so fun when you do things like item 3285 and item 3151 with some tanky items and a item 3089 to finish it all off....its so great to see the reaction when you go barreling down a lane or corner your team is running from hit that ult damn near one shot two of the enemy adcs hit your w and e and watch them melt with the teemo that wasn't banned for once then go toe to toe with there tanks. ahhhh......so fun...but i cant play that in actual matches because her ad scales better...and people will bitch :(

but they bitch anyway when i do play actual matches my picks are very asshole picks... Teemo Twitch i take toplane..sometimes Poppy but she is fun in her own right because screw you i have a hammer xD

CannabisOverlordApr 30, 20171 votes

Im bout to try that ap shyv top, never thought to do it xD

WinTheWarOnPantsMay 1, 20171 votes

It's better mid IMO. Squishy target makes it easy to one combo with ult. If you go top then you almost always need to rush item 3151 for the burn, then get item 3100 item 3146 after

SparksFFFMay 1, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Im bout to try that ap shyv top, never thought to do it xD

careful its a very mdilate game thing to do.

Asayake 5150glowApr 30, 20171 votes

{quoted}

off meta can be very fun...i like playing a ap/tank hybrid in some of these special modes and aram...it is so fun when you do things like and with some tanky items and a to finish it all off....its so great to see the reaction when you go barreling down a lane or corner your team is running from hit that ult damn near one shot two of the enemy adcs hit your w and e and watch them melt with the teemo that wasn't banned for once then go toe to toe with there tanks. ahhhh......so fun...but i cant play that in actual matches because her ad scales better...and people will bitch :(

but they bitch anyway when i do play actual matches my picks are very asshole picks... i take toplane..sometimes but she is fun in her own right because screw you i have a hammer xD

Yeah, you do realize her AD build does that just as well lol [slayer-jinx-wink]

AP is fun though, have you tried gunblade + bork? You shoot them for so much.

Mira Arya EntheMay 1, 20171 votes

AP Shyvana does less burst, less AoE, is less tanky, has less wave clear, less kill threat, worst team fighting, weaker split pushing, harder time taking objectives and towers. There is objectively no reason to choose it.

Nephilims Mora Apr 30, 20171 votes

ALL YOU NEED IS Sejuani !!!!!! I play her top; support; jungle; mid depending on who i'm trying to counter. mostly tank with her all lanes unless i'm fed. if i'm fed y'all dealing with glass cannon Sejuani . or ALL YOU NEED IS Nasus !!!!!!!! because Susan top; support; jungle; mid are well over whelming even to those experienced players

DarkDeamonDragonMay 2, 20172 votes

I played AP Susan support and it was so much fun! The amount of damage he could lay down with his E is intense!

Nephilims Mora May 2, 20171 votes

yeah if you go mid AP Susan you will win most team fights and early laning phase. its really rare to find good mage counter or assassins for him. Akali Azir Annie Heimerdinger Katarina Fizz Shaco Yasuo Zed Veigar Zed Ekko Galio they don't stand a chance

SparksFFFMay 1, 20171 votes

mmm....idea's idea's.

deadlychuckMay 1, 20171 votes

Yeah, the "stigma" that is around off meta builds and picks is pretty toxic.

It's not really a stigma though, it's more that people have become so narrow minded that any deviation from what they been conditioned to find acceptable is just beyond their ability to tolerate and comprehend.

Mira Arya EntheMay 1, 20171 votes

M.E.T.A. Most Effective Tactic Available. There is a reason it is preferred.

FikuleMay 1, 20171 votes

Not off-meta in the crazy sense, but I'm still loving Ap Morde Top.

His early kill potential is great, and since people don't deal with him often they don't get that a 2v1 melee gank is essentially just giving you two kills. He's unpopular enough that I still get people being amazed that he gets a dragon ghost... then more amazed when you solo the Baron with the dragon.

Craft ZeppelinMay 1, 20171 votes

One of the annnoying stuff that when you do off-meta, is when being called "that build only works in low elo". Like copying challenger and being risked countered easy is also really questionable as well.

Sacrificing your will to think has its own drawbacks you know.

RottedApplesMay 1, 20171 votes

i do love thresh top. tell me, who was this streamer? i want to know more.

Craft ZeppelinMay 1, 20171 votes

{quoted}

i do love thresh top. tell me, who was this streamer? i want to know more.

Im not going to advertise said streamer directly because he might want some privacy, but if you search top thresh on youtube you will find a very detailed guide that seems REALLY out of place out of all of the clickbaits in caps. His twitch will also be linked to his channel.

Rıots Bad ClientMay 1, 20171 votes

I don't mind off meta picks, How ever if you pick soraka ad jung and go 0/11/4 and then later find that you NEVER actually tried it in normals, I'm sorta salty.

agbudarMay 1, 20171 votes

lethality marks + quints armor seals mr glyphs undying grasp doran's blade and then pick Yorick top against Yassuo on your first back get a sheen and laugh as he will lose every trade with only a single Q. takes literally zero skill to go even with the advantage in splitpush power and a little bit of skill to hit him with your E and murder him and his family with ghouls W needs to be used with nothing inside as impassable terrain in order for it to function

personally i go life regen heimer against Yassuo.

it will literally want him to uninstall. i had a game were i did nothing but cockblock yasuo from splitpushing (i lost cuz my team was noob) but yas had to like use his ult twice in massive extended duels to actually get me down.

he couldnt stop crying about how boring it made the game for him and how boring it was that it took so much effort to win.

had i played better ( i missed a couple of key stuns) i would have won that game. and at the same time made that yas main uninstall... sigh il get it right someday.