Why SA form Kayn is going to be difficult to balance, and an easy fix

Doozku··21 votes·1,795 views

Right now, SA form Kayn is generally considered the worse form, and the one that you should avoid at all costs. While i feel like part of this is just because people haven't learned the champion yet and are still trying to get the hang of him, and Darkin form is much more forgiving and easier to play, but I feel like there's a legitimate reason why SA form feels weak, and why buffing him up would probably make him too strong. The problem is two things.

  1. Unreliable escape. Right now, if you use your E to get into a fight, you really lack mobility to escape. Maybe with a well placed ult, but you probably need to use your R to dodge a spell or to finish of your target, so that's simply an unreliable escape.
  2. The slow immunity on E is completely useless. Compared to the %damage and CC that Rhaast gains on his versions of the spells, The movespeed on E is nice but not too good, and the slow immunity is complete trash. For one thing, it only happens in walls, so you can't use it in fight to block slows. But since you are in a wall, any damage will cancel your E and most slows tend to have some kind of damage attached, so that's worthless.

I feel like there is an easy fix to this though, so I'll put the changes to his kit down below.

E: Being in combat no longer stops this ability from getting a longer duration. Removed slow immunity and extra movespeed is disabled while in combat. R: No longer refreshes passive, instead, for every second that you are in the R, it decreases the cd of every non ultimate spell on your kit, by a percent. So that if you wait the full duration, it refreshes all of your cd's including your passive magic damage.

Let me explain. The R now refreshes your cd's if you wait in it. This might seem broken, but think about what spells are going to be coming up. Your passive is already refreshed, the cd on your Q is so low that it would already refresh if you waited the full duration, and the W would be the same except you'd have to wait half a second before you can cast it. The only real spell that you gain is your E, which you can finally use for an escape. This kit change would also promote Kayn being riskier and waiting the full duration of the R if he wants the most out of his cd refreshes.

34 Comments

Sujiren21 votes

I dont see point to shadow assasin if it cant one shot people. I legit played lethality nocturne and one shot people with just ult , q , aa in under 1,5seconds, but i couldnt do anything even close to that on shadow kayn, even when fed. You can argue that his shadow form is not supposed to build lethality, and supposed to itemize more like a fighter, but that makes no sense, because then rhaast form is just better in every way.

TheGoomyGamer7 votes

{quoted}

I dont see point to shadow assasin if it cant one shot people. I legit played lethality nocturne and one shot people with just ult , q , aa in under 1,5seconds, but i couldnt do anything even close to that on shadow kayn, even when fed. You can argue that his shadow form is not supposed to build lethality, and supposed to itemize more like a fighter, but that makes no sense, because then rhaast form is just better in every way.

I can 1shot squishies with Kayn with only a item 3142 item 3147 Just W -> Q so they land @ the same time, procs thunderlords and will 1shot a lot of squishies. I find hes quite good in shadow assassing form, and a lot more fun as well.

Divewing1 votes

Agreed.

I haven't won every game, but I've been having success for the most part.

That said my brother has been spamming Rhaast, and he tried lethality and he reckons it is far superior, so while Kayn I certainly wouldn't say he's trash.

Doozku1 votes

Except I can oneshot people just fine on him. W-Q since your W has no cast time and if your target somehow survives auto them or if they dash away ult then and wait for your cd to come back.

OyddAWqJ5r1 votes

Alot of people are using his ult after 2-3 seconds in combat. Remember that all skills deal up to 44% increased damage during the first 3 seconds of combat to include your ult. So use your ult asap if you can.

I see alot of Kayns not utilizing their passive properly in this way.

PrinceOfStorms3 votes

I'd say rather than SA form buffing his E, Shadow Assassin should increase the range on Kayn's Q to make it more reliable as a gapclosing tool.

Legacy Hydralpha1 votes

And a range increase on his Q would also make him have a more reliable escape.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku2 votes

Unreliable escape. Right now, if you use your E to get into a fight, you really lack mobility to escape. Maybe with a well placed ult, but you probably need to use your R to dodge a spell or to finish of your target, so that's simply an unreliable escape.

No. Its unreliable cause u (by u i mean the kayne player) don't know how to play an assassin. U need to plan how u go in and how u go out. Its same as Talon. Kayn don't lack of mobility with his kit... and u can add this item 3142

The slow immunity on E is completely useless. Compared to the %damage and CC that Rhaast gains on his versions of the spells, The movespeed on E is nice but not too good, and the slow immunity is complete trash. For one thing, it only happens in walls, so you can't use it in fight to block slows. But since you are in a wall, any damage will cancel your E and most slows tend to have some kind of damage attached, so that's worthless.

Oo are u really believe what u said here ???

E: Being in combat no longer stops this ability from getting a longer duration. Removed slow immunity and extra movespeed is disabled while in combat.

Its the counterplay to this strong ability. same like the timer of E of talon.

R: No longer refreshes passive, instead, for every second that you are in the R, it decreases the cd of every non ultimate spell on your kit, by a percent. So that if you wait the full duration, it refreshes all of your cd's including your passive magic damage.

Useless. Kayn have already short cd.

Teridax682 votes

My 2 cents on SA Kayn:

  • Agreed, the slow immunity on E isn't great. I think it might be better if the SA bonus simply gave the ability an extra charge instead, so that Kayn could have an escape on par with other assassins. It could also let him gank from especially far away, which I also think would be appropriate for an assassin, especially since he'd be fully committing to a fight.
  • A few other players mentioned this already (Sujiren brought it up in their thread), but having the ult deal increased flat damage based on the target's missing health would complete SA Kayn's burst, and allow him to deal the "massive damage" that was promised, given appropriate preparation. I don't think the passive refresh or even the extra cast range are all that necessary, as SA Kayn has a pretty good means of reaching the back line already, and needs a finisher more than a way of prolonging combat.
Doozku2 votes

IMO I think the extra range and passive refresh are fine on the R. The R, at least on SA, isn't really all that good for damage. It's much more of a utility and mobility spell for dodging stuff instead of for executing people. The extra range really helps with that, since you can more consistently get onto people. I think that the devs didn't add any damage to the R but did the passive refresh because they wanted less damage in the point and click R and more on the rest of his kit that has skillshots and what not to add more counterplay.

Teridax682 votes

That's fair, but then the lack of major damage on his ult means most of his damage comes from his Q, W and autoattacks, as well as the DoT that accompanies them, which ends up making him more of a light fighter than an assassin, as he doesn't have much burst. I think it would be mostly fine to give him point-and-click damage on his ult as long as it were execution-based, as it would all depend on his ability to damage his target beforehand, and it would also mean using it simply for protection, when he already has a lot of mobility to start with, would be more of a choice than the ability's main use.

Sujiren2 votes

{quoted}

IMO I think the extra range and passive refresh are fine on the R. The R, at least on SA, isn't really all that good for damage. It's much more of a utility and mobility spell for dodging stuff instead of for executing people. The extra range really helps with that, since you can more consistently get onto people. I think that the devs didn't add any damage to the R but did the passive refresh because they wanted less damage in the point and click R and more on the rest of his kit that has skillshots and what not to add more counterplay.

Ironically though Rhaast's ult version actually does good amount of damage and heals him on top of that, so I don't think ability is ment just for utility, thats like saying zeds ult should be used just for utility to dodge abilities.

Doozku1 votes

Rhaast doesn't need to dodge spells as much since he's tanky as hell. Theoretically SA does give you damage in the form of refreshing his passive but if you want it to hurt more you can remove that passive and just give it an execute effect.

Aptest2 votes

{quoted}

... It could also let him gank from especially far away, which I also think would be appropriate for an assassin

We've been in this story before. He was called Rengar. Do you want a repeat?

...and needs a finisher more than a way of prolonging combat.

I think all you assassin players are having an orgasm over a new assassin champion being released. how about you ejaculate a bit before you start clamoring for your promised Ashe one-shots?

Doozku2 votes

I'd orgasm too if we haven't gotten a real AD Assassin since Zed which was 5 years ago.

Teridax683 votes

{quoted}

We've been in this story before. He was called Rengar. Do you want a repeat?

Rengar's counterplay issues come from his upfront burst, not his long-range gank potential. Many more champions, such as Nocturne, Pantheon, Talon, etc. are able to engage a target from extremely far away, and that feature is not what causes them problems.

{quoted}

I think all you assassin players are having an orgasm over a new assassin champion being released. how about you ejaculate a bit before you start clamoring for your promised Ashe one-shots?

None of this even begins to make sense. Neither I nor many of the players complaining about SA Kayn focus particularly on assassins, Ashe herself is certainly not an assassin, and the feedback on Kayn has largely been positive, with the exception of his Shadow Assassin form, which is noticeably underperforming. Arbitrarily splitting the playerbase between "assassin players", whoever those are, and those who somehow do not fit this category, in an attempt to disparage them contributes nothing to the conversation, and merely brings about needless antagonism.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

Kayn down't need more burst nor a finisher

13900 Essence2 votes

I like Shadow Assassin a lot more, it just feels a lot smoother to play. It is really disappointing that it pales in comparison to Rhaast, though.

Rewt1 votes

Just make the ultimate not be affected by the Cooldown refresh.

Doozku1 votes

I did say non ultimate abilities.

Snowplosion1 votes

I'm so lost. I have heard that Rhaast is must better and I've heard Shadow Assassin is much better. I have never heard they were both good. WTF is actually better. Can I get a stat on this???

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

Riot said during one of their red posts that Rhaast is indeed outperforming Shadow Assassin currently. Honestly the reason Shadow Assassin feels week is probably the fact people are building Lethality on it for some reason. You do AT LEAST 1/3 Magic damage so lethality is arguably a wasted stat and only buffs autos, Q, and W (all of those only 2/3 buffed as well due to passive). Your ult and Passive make you do so much mixed damage that building Lethality (outside of maybe a Duskblade but that is solely because the item is overpowered) is pointless almost.

WacingTheFind4 votes

Shadow Assassin's Passive doesn't convert 1/3 of your dmg, it gives you BONUS magic dmg on top of your normal damage. Also ult deals physical damage, so ult also gets affected by lethality.

Example: If you deal 100 physical dmg to someone(after mitigation) , you will deal 33 extra magic dmg.

TheGoomyGamer5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Victorious Yasuo,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5FesQM7P,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2017-07-16T11:03:18.650+0000)

Shadow Assassin's Passive doesn't convert 1/3 of your dmg, it gives you BONUS magic dmg on top of your normal damage. Also ult deals physical damage, so ult also gets affected by lethality.

Example: If you deal 100 physical dmg to someone(after mitigation) , you will deal 33 extra magic dmg.

Also, Lethality does increase ur magic damage because it is a % of your post-mitigation damage, so lethality, by increasing your damage with spells/aas, increases the passive damage.

WacingTheFind2 votes

Precisely.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

[{quoted}](name=My Waifu Chocola,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5FesQM7P,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2017-07-16T07:46:38.329+0000)

Riot said during one of their red posts that Rhaast is indeed outperforming Shadow Assassin currently. Honestly the reason Shadow Assassin feels week is probably the fact people are building Lethality on it for some reason. You do AT LEAST 1/3 Magic damage so lethality is arguably a wasted stat and only buffs autos, Q, and W (all of those only 2/3 buffed as well due to passive). Your ult and Passive make you do so much mixed damage that building Lethality (outside of maybe a Duskblade but that is solely because the item is overpowered) is pointless almost.

The reason people are building lethality is because the % increase to damage is post mitigation. So if your damage is reduced through armor by 50%, then the remaining damage will only increase by that percent, which will then be reduced by magic resist.

In other words, his passive % bonus magic damage is reduced first by armor, then by magic resist.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

there no better than other. Both have different style, but Raast if tankier so safer and more forgiving. Kayn require more skill and deal more (not a bit, MORE hella more).

it depend on the role u wan't to play and ur play style.

BoilTheOil1 votes

How about whenever he gets a kill or assist his e resets as shadow kayn

loli nukes1 votes

i dont think that ult change helps but to get e back down, i would suggest increase ult damage and if ult kills the target, e cd is reset. q and w is low enough to be up anyway

Doozku1 votes

In that case they'd have to get rid of the passive reset on R.

DeadUnborn1 votes

sees like a good idea on paper

BasedNerd1 votes

I don't really feel like shadow form is that much worse than Rhaast. I've played a handful of games as both and found varying levels of success with either. Rhaast has issues taking down squishies, and that bothers me when I'm trying to kill a rather fed ADC and cant get through their damage and lifesteal. On the other hand, Shadow form works fine for that, because i can do all my damage, then render their lifesteal moot for several seconds while my CDs refresh with my ult before finishing them off before they can heal back. I thought it was a little underwhelming at first, but the more I played with it the more ways I saw to properly utilize the kit. Could it use a buff? Probably. Just hope they don't buff it too much.

Doozku1 votes

Yeah I feel fine on it but I've only played him on pbe with lag and shitty matchmaking, I'm saving up for him in live because I'm broke af. I feel like he's fine but just from looking at his kit I can see that he's likely gonna have the Rengar problem where you can go in and kill someone but not get out.

Akali is SO HOT1 votes

I think increasing the range and/or lowering the cast time of his Q to make his assassination pattern more smooth could also be something to help Shadow Assassin out.

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