Nidalee has a Garen ult on a lower CD

IsIsGankedParis·Feb 8, 2015·40 votes·4,242 views

Balanced :^)

69 Comments

NarasimhaFeb 9, 201516 votes

Good thing Nidalee has all that cc and tankiness so she can survive to use it. No. Wait. Thats Garen.

BlackRavenFeb 9, 201518 votes

{quoted}

Good thing Nidalee has all that cc and tankiness so she can survive to use it. No. Wait. Thats Garen.

good thing nidalee gets to use it every 4 seconds, but hey tankiness in a 1v1 lane is what matters :)

NarasimhaFeb 9, 201513 votes

I know, right? Thank the gods the entire game is just a 1v1. I mean, those 4 other people are just decorations anyway.

BudupopsFeb 9, 201510 votes

tanks don't exist item 3035 item 3154 item 3135

SkoonieFeb 9, 201524 votes

Neither does item 3154

BudupopsFeb 9, 20158 votes

i just put that in there because i thought they removed it and i miss it item 3070

blueberrypancakeFeb 9, 20152 votes

That belongs in a museum Ezreal

The funny thing is that Wriggle's Lantern was actually found by Ezreal in the lore, it also allowed Jungle Ezreal to be viable during season 3.

lojicianFeb 10, 20151 votes

Wait do you actually think garen is good in teamfights?

Kuroi86Feb 9, 20151 votes

Garen' combination of tankiness and damage turns it into a skill match up, avoiding the javelin tosses, trading when it's favorable to you. If you can keep from being pushed out of lane til lvl 3 you should be able to push Nid under her tower. Garen has a lot of early power, Nid' best bet early on is to harass with AA while avoiding minion damage. Nid has early damage, but she's so squishy that if she doesn't trade smart, she will lose lane.

Ser GarlandFeb 9, 20152 votes

Nidalee has always been the hard counter to Garen. She can kite him forever. So yes, a Garen beating a Nidalee would prove that you're a skilled player.

S H A Y C 0Feb 9, 20151 votes

More accurately it proves youre up against a noob nidalee...just sayin

Rinky DinkyFeb 9, 20152 votes

Garen has 1 cc m8

and it conveniently 100% shuts down nidalee if she gets hit by it :3

Xx420n0sc0p3sxXFeb 9, 20152 votes

"all that cc" Garen has a silence....thats it......

blueberrypancakeFeb 9, 20151 votes

Nidalee is a caster, your point is...

NarasimhaFeb 9, 20151 votes

1 > 0

Last I checked, anyway.

DoraTheBrownFeb 9, 20151 votes

Wait garen has cc? 1 silence a lot.

Jungle Lux GodFeb 10, 20151 votes

Good thing Garen has the burst to be able to abuse it. No. Wait. That's Nidalee.

GaleWinUnleashedFeb 9, 20159 votes

Solution: Change the cooldown of Garen's ult to 10 seconds at all levels.

Kitten of EvilFeb 9, 20153 votes

How about 10/8/6 seconds as he levels it up?

junglerboy16Feb 9, 20156 votes

Solution: Buff Garen ult. Give it longer range and a shorter cool down and we're set.

Raja ChachkiFeb 8, 20154 votes

well...it is a skillshot.....but I still absolutely hate a spear chunking me for half my health.

No79Feb 8, 201512 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hudson Gaga,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5EoYRWiA,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-02-08T22:45:10.908+0000)

well...it is a skillshot.....but I still absolutely hate a spear chunking me for half my health.

I thought the OP was talking about the Q in cougar form...

TheKingDodoFeb 9, 20155 votes

b..buh garen's ult has 400 range... Pounce RANGE: 375 (750 against Hunted )... If the cursor is near an enemy marked as Hunted within 750-range, Pounce becomes a unit-targeted dash. Current cooldown resets to 1.5 seconds if Nidalee pounces to a Hunted target hmmm... nvm

Kuroi86Feb 8, 20154 votes

Hmm... Lvl 18 Anivia has 1658 health. At 1% health. Garen would deal 525+656.8=1181.8 To match this, lets see. 1181-300=881 250% AD means 352.4 AD 120% AP means 743.2 AP Hm, it's feasible, though Nidalee is going to need to really stack on the AD/AP.

qetzelFeb 9, 20153 votes

But the Anivia would probably have built a ROA, increasing the damage Garen would do.

JustMyBassCannonFeb 8, 20153 votes

I didn't know Nidalee's Q did 40% of missing HP in damage.

Chaotic ReksFeb 8, 201519 votes

you're right. it does more

JustMyBassCannonFeb 9, 20158 votes

Actually, it doesn't do more damage. Garen's strictly does more damage than Nidalee's. Note that I did not say it is superior, only that it strictly, provably deals more damage.

Chaotic ReksFeb 9, 20154 votes

actually garen's ult at max is 525 + 40% missing health with no scalings, whereas nid's does (maximum damage with hunt) 300 + 150% + 250% AD + 120% AP, so nid's could do way more damage

JustMyBassCannonFeb 9, 20158 votes

I ran the numbers, and for Nidalee's Q to deal more damage, [a] her target needs to be at less than 1% of max HP (we're talking less than 10 hit points), [b] Nidalee needs to have well over 300 bonus AD or close to 700 AP, and [c] the target needs to have a max HP of less than 2000.

If the target is at, say, 10% of their max HP instead, her Q deals 211.5 +176.25% AD +84.6% AP (281.2 +234.4% AD +112.5% AP with her passive), while Garen's ultimate is dealing 525 +36% max HP (40% of 90% = 36%).

So if you have a full-AD/full-AP/full-Hybrid Nidalee attacking a Sona/Anivia/Gnar that didn't have any health items at less than 15 HP, yes, Nidalee's Q can do slightly more damage.

Also, early-game, like level 9, before Garen can put more than 1 rank in his ult, Nid's Q can deal more.

KingsgraveFeb 9, 20153 votes

{quoted}

I ran the numbers, and for Nidalee's Q to deal more damage, [a] her target needs to be at less than 1% of max HP (we're talking less than 10 hit points), [b] Nidalee needs to have well over 300 bonus AD or close to 700 AP, and [c] the target needs to have a max HP of less than 2000.

If the target is at, say, 10% of their max HP instead, her Q deals 211.5 +176.25% AD +84.6% AP (281.2 +234.4% AD +112.5% AP with her passive), while Garen's ultimate is dealing 525 +36% max HP (40% of 90% = 36%).

So if you have a full-AD/full-AP/full-Hybrid Nidalee attacking a Sona/Anivia/Gnar that didn't have any health items at less than 15 HP, yes, Nidalee's Q can do slightly more damage.

Yeah but Garen has to wait over a minute if it doesn't work and Nid has to wait like 10 seconds

JustMyBassCannonFeb 9, 20159 votes

Good thing I didn't say that Garen's ult was better, only that it deals more damage.

YOU BEEN WARNEDFeb 9, 20156 votes

You're forgetting 2 things.

Nidalee will pounce in with a item 3057 / item 3100 proc.

Nidalee will build item 3135 , Garen will not.

Nidalee's damage is freaking insane.

GunpointFeb 9, 20151 votes

DFGaren woulda built a void staff >_>

JustMyBassCannonFeb 9, 20151 votes

Void Staff actually won't make that significant of a difference in the damage output. Lich Bane, on the other hand, could actually give Nidalee the edge. I've done the math on this thing a few times too many, but if you want me to do it again, I could do the math, taking into account all the variables.

CaeziumFeb 9, 20151 votes

Nidalee can build magic pen a lot easier than Garen can. Which would affect the calculations a bit for as to who does more.

(Void Staff + Sorc Shoes Garen is... Unheard of pretty much. Nidalee builds both commonly)

JustMyBassCannonFeb 9, 20151 votes

While Nidalee builds Magic Pen much easier, you cannot disregard that Nidalee's scaling is so much more dependent on the target's HP than Garen's scaling.

For every 10% HP the target has, Garen's ultimate loses what is effectively 4% max HP damage on the target. This is 40 damage per 1000 max HP, approximately 60-80 on your average, no-health-built target.

For every 10% HP the target has, Nidalee's Q loses 15-20% of the base and scaling damage (depending on her passive hunt mark). This changes her Q to 235-312.55% instead of 250-332.5%, reducing the damage by 13.5-18 (plus her base AD granting +188.6-250.8), +176.25-234.4% AD, +84.6-112.5% AP damage. *Note: the range is due to the Hunted mark of her passive; low number is without, high number is with).

For every 10% HP on a target from 1600-2400, Garen's ultimate loses 64-96 damage. For the same %HP difference, Nidalee loses 202-269 damage. Before accounting for bonus AD/AP.

If the target has 600 HP, assuming a base from 1600-3000 HP (that ranges from Gnar with no HP items to Cho'gath at full stacks +Liandry's), Garen's ultimate deals 925-1485 damage before MR. Using that same range (which is 37.5% on 1600, 20% on 3000), Nidalee's Q deals 174.4 (231.9 with Hunt mark) base (plus 155.5 from her AD, or 206.8 with Hunt mark), +145.3% (+193.3%) AD, +69.75% (+92.77%) AP. This comes out to 329.9-438.7, plus the scaling, on the 1600 HP target.

In the other case, Nidalee's Q deals 198 (263.3) base (plus 176.6/234.8 from base AD), +165% (219.5%) AD, +79.2% (+105.4%) AP. This comes out to 374.6/498.1 plus scaling bonuses on the 3k HP target.

I could do the math for how much AD/AP Nidalee would need to out-scale Garen's ultimate in both of those situations, but I've done enough math for now.

~~[hold on, editing, I forgot some of the math]~~

Again, the only realistic situation where Nidalee's Q will actually out-damage Garen's R is if the target would have died from the base damage alone, anyway. I suppose you could hypothesise Galio with over 300 MR and prove me wrong, but in every realistic scenario, Garen's ultimate deals more damage than Nidalee's Q. Nid's Q is still a potentially stronger assassination, mostly due to the lower cooldown, but it does not realistically have the capacity to out-damage Garen's ultimate.

DownfallFeb 9, 20153 votes

But garen's isn't scaling nor does it applie on-hit effects, so in some cases nidalee's cougar q will do more damage than garen's ultimate.

JustMyBassCannonFeb 9, 20153 votes

The only realistic situation where Nidalee's Q will deal more damage than Garen's R is at level 9 (when Garen's R is rank 1 and Nid's Q is rank 5), and when they're attacking a target that would die from the base damage of either spell, no scaling required.

EDIT: Whoops, forgot that detail. Thanks PrinceofStorms

PrinceOfStormsFeb 9, 20153 votes

{quoted}

The only realistic situation where Nidalee's Q will deal more damage than Garen's R is at level 9 (when Garen's R is rank 1 and Nid's Q is rank 5), and when they're attacking a target that would die from the base damage of either spell, no scaling required.

Cougar form abilities scale with points in her R, not their respective ability (so Takedown doesn't scale with Javelin Toss levels, Pounce doesn't scale with Bushwhack levels, and Swipe doesn't scale with Primal Surge levels).

JustMyBassCannonFeb 9, 20151 votes

Oh, thank you. I forgot about that.

Schoolgirl UrgotFeb 8, 20156 votes

{quoted}

I didn't know Nidalee's Q did 40% of missing HP in damage.

It has scaling. A lot of it. And is also a basic attack modifier so you can you that and lichbane at the same time! Hooray for balance!

JustMyBassCannonFeb 9, 20154 votes

Because Nidalee OP?

Forums haven't been screaming that one for years -_-

YOU BEEN WARNEDFeb 9, 20152 votes

But wait there is more. It combos with her other spells and counts as an auto attack reset. So you can press all your buttons, lay in an auto attack and press Q for fuckloads of damage.

All at no cost!!!!

Did I mention your escape is at 5 CD max?

Too long? No problem, there is a buttload of bushes on SR. Enter one and have item 3078 movespeed for 2 seconds by that time you get your escape up again!

I mean, why would someone with a siege tool not be strong at skirmishes right ? Nunu Teemo Shaco Fuck these guys, they ain't no cougars! Cougar master race Nidalee

Tal9922Feb 9, 20151 votes

yes, because as we know champions in LoL only have 1 stat/ability each, so comparing just that single aspect of them can be used to effectively illustrate who is directly stronger.

4museFeb 9, 20151 votes

I bet all the people complaining about Nid are the ones getting chunked down and raped by one. Play one yourself and tell me how well you can Q a marked target and get out without dying.

Guy Fox TeemoFeb 9, 20151 votes

Ehhhhm Lets compare

NIDALEE Javelin Toss RANGE: 1500 COST: 50 / 60 / 70 / 80 / 90 MANA COOLDOWN: 6 Javelin Toss ACTIVE: Nidalee hurls her javelin forward in a line, dealing magic damage to the first enemy it hits. BASE MAGIC DAMAGE: 50 / 75 / 100 / 125 / 150 (+40% AP) After having traveled 525 units, the javelin's damage will be increased by 2% per 7.75 units traveled, capping at 200% bonus damage (300% total damage) after traveling 1300 units. MAXIMUM MAGIC DAMAGE: 150 / 225 / 300 / 375 / 450 (+120% AP)

NIDALEE 2 Takedown COOLDOWN: 5 Takedown ACTIVE: Nidalee's next basic attack gains 75-range (200 total range) and is modified to deal magic damage. Scales with ranks in Aspect of the Aspect of the Cougar The damage is increased by 1.5% for every 1% of the target's missing health, for a maximum of 150% bonus damage (250% total damage). BASE MAGIC DAMAGE: 4 / 20 / 50 / 90 (+75% AD) (+36% AP) MAXIMUM DAMAGE: 10 / 50 / 125 / 225 (+187.5% AD) (+90% AP) HUNT BONUS: If the target is marked as Hunted, Takedown deals 33% increased damage. HUNT MAXIMUM DAMAGE: 13 / 67 / 167 / 300 (+250% AD) (+120% AP)

GAREN Demacian Justice RANGE: 400 COOLDOWN: 160 / 120 / 80 Demacian Justice ACTIVE: Garen calls upon the might of Demacia to attempt to execute an enemy champion, dealing magic damage plus additional damage based on his target's missing health. MAGIC DAMAGE: 175 / 350 / 525 (+ 28.57 / 33.33 / 40% of target's missing health)

***Obviously garens meant to be an assassin. Who does butt loads of damage ***

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/attachment.php?attachmentid=944179&d=1397516479

killergrahamFeb 10, 20151 votes

I love read the ones with ppl they get butt mad after getting out played by something bc they are bad xD and just want everthing to blow beside the champs they play like this guy xD I mean come on lol nid cant walk into the team and kill the half health tank with one skill like he can but hey she the one that's op xD Nidalee

Elo GuyMar 30, 20151 votes

A champion's ultimate's strength is relative to his/her own kit. I'm sure you could pull out a bunch of fancy math to show how irelia's ultimate is weaker than some other champion's basic abilities, but that doesn't make irelia weaker.

I'm not saying garen isn't weak. He is. But this isn't the reason why.