They don't bother looking to forum balance because
No reason riot should waste time in GnB.
Trylobyte5 votesGnB is actually one of the most active places for red-posting. But yes, they do ignore a lot of community input, and they're perfectly right to do so. The fact is, everyone has a huge chance of being wrong when it comes to balance. Bronzes and silvers might see the whole spectrum of champions, but they're not seeing them played well - This colors their opinions and makes them overvalue some champions. But the opposite problem exists when you reach Master, Challenger, and LCS levels - They see champions played well, but they don't see a whole lot of them on a regular basis. Pros are perfectly capable of falling into flavors of the month even when better options exist (note how every region has a meta, but it's generally a different meta from the other regions) and that colors their opinions as well.
In short, the vast majority of opinions are crap. Low-ranking players are bad, sure, but high-ranking players live in an echo chamber. The trick Riot has to pull off, is finding what's really imbalanced amid a Nami ult of complaints.
SEKAI3 votesAnother day, another Hot bait.
If you think Riot has a good record for balancing the game themselves without taking in the community's feedback, sorry, but you're wrong.
The lack of listening is exactly their problem. Community opinions are precisely how broken releases, nonsensical reworks and bad balance decisions could have been prevented, if they had just given it a glance.
EDIT: wait, Lux is OP now?
Budupops1 votesFirst off champions are purposely released OP to increase sales. Secondly, "bad" balance changes are meant for LCS not solo Q. Remember when Fiora was released? Extremely under powered because no one could play her, now she is extremely overpowered due to GnB tears.
SEKAI4 votesFirst off champions are purposely released OP to increase sales.
(he only became a problem after buff)
Secondly, "bad" balance changes are meant for LCS not solo Q. Remember when Fiora was released? Extremely under powered because no one could play her, now she is extremely overpowered due to GnB tears.
Riot almost never hear anything from the community, apart from a few occasions.
Most of the terrible patches were released by ignoring the PBE feedback, and yes 5 years and counting in business they still haven't realised the root of all trouble yet.
Budupops1 votesvelkoz was 2 years ago m8.
TurquoiseYoshi1 votes
2 out of the last 3 were weak on release? Sure, they're all OP on release.
"Bad" balance changes such as what? Nobody is actually giving examples.
Budupops1 votessupports aren't popular so riot can release them balanced because it wont impact sales
TurquoiseYoshi1 votesTahm was meant for Top as well. Also, they weren't balanced on release, they were weak. They both got very quick buffs.
Budupops1 votesboth got quick buffs to make em op
TurquoiseYoshi1 votesBard is OP? TK is OP? What have you been smoking?
Budupops1 votesit will be fun watching at worlds :)
TurquoiseYoshi1 votesWhere Alistar and Braum will still be the top picks, followed by Thresh and maybe Kennen, Zyra, or Morgana as secondary picks.
I expect to see 0 TK and 1 Bard from BKT in a game they know they'll lose. That's it.
Budupops1 votesyou know what? im done
Spicy Rice3 votesAnother day, another Hot bait.
If you think Riot has a good record for balancing the game themselves without taking in the community's feedback, sorry, but you're wrong.
The lack of listening is exactly their problem. Community opinions are precisely how broken releases, nonsensical reworks and bad balance decisions could have been prevented, if they had just given it a glance.
EDIT: wait, Lux is OP now?
Ye, with the amount of aoe zone controll, and damage she can give from range, she is a hard pick to beat in mid.
Smegma1233 votesReddit is more active than boards. I've been playing this game on and off since preseason 1 and trust me, community opinions are mostly wrong.
SEKAI2 votesReddit is more active than boards. I've been playing this game on and off since preseason 1 and trust me, community opinions are mostly wrong.
If you include intellectuals with the raging trolls then yeah.
Otherwise, the community isn't that dumb, at least definitely not worse than Riot.
Community and company are supposed to help each other.
Smegma1232 votesRiot takes help from the community, but not people that don't have an expert opinion. Why do you think they haven't nerfed Vayne after all this time? They know we are stupid. Which is fact. They have spent years studying game design. They take advice from top players in solo Q and competitive play as well as experienced game designers in the community as well as company, and remember this game is not just NA/EU/OCE, its china, korea, brazil and more. They take opinions from across the world, taking into account the various metas and power picks in each region.
Everybody calls for Twitch buffs in NA, but why do you think they are only giving him such minor buffs? Because Twitch is quite strong over in China, and any buffs would break him there.
A few hundred upvotes, even 1k or 2k upvotes is not a big deal for them. It represents nothing.
Sorry to disagree but its ridiculous to think that the community knows Riot's job better than they do. That's not to say that Riot doesn't make mistakes, but they have the most resources and the most expert opinions.
Yes btw sometimes champs are OP on purpose to promote a new skin or for other such money/popularity reasons. Of course they care most about making money and game balance is secondary. That's pretty logical. That's why they left fiora untouched while the new skin was released. They do this really often. Now its worlds patch they nerfed her a bit. But generally if the game is balanced, more people will enjoy = more skin sales. So in general they will of course try to balance, especially for things like worlds because that's a huge revenue stream for them but as shown in the fiora example, sometimes if they see a reasonable profit, they will leave a champ OP to make skin sales.
I seriously doubt even one Rioter checks this board for more than 5 minutes once a week, while they are taking a dump or something.
manbearswine1 votesReddit is more active than boards. I've been playing this game on and off since preseason 1 and trust me, community opinions are mostly wrong.
They definetly are,but that doesn't mean community feedback is useless.
First of all,honestly,unless it's a thread about some lower elo terror,just completely ignore everyone below plat,probably ignore plat too,but can't get too picky here or you're just left with nothing.
(as a rioter)See what person makes sense,a lot of people won't just say what needs to be done,they will also say why it should be done,see if their reasoning coincides with yours,the person is much more likely to be right then.
Finally you should remember that not everything which looks like a mistake is a mistake,for example:overbuffing a champion isn't necessarily a bad thing,as it might make the community remember that he exists and make a more varied game in the long run.
Mind you if you see a person who has no idea what he is talking about and all of his argument is based on winrate(unles it's like 60% or something),you should probably ignore him.
Smegma1232 votesYeah exactly, not everything that looks like a mistake is a mistake. Huge thing that gets overlooked. Sometimes champs aren't really OP, but we as a community just have difficulty learning to play around them. Sometimes as mentioned above by me in a different post, they just leave certain champs OP to increase skin sales.
I think its not fair to put Riot knowledge on the same level as our knowledge, even a high elo player. The truth is Riot is probably far more qualified than us, so many Rioters are diamond+ players themselves, they have experienced game designers, they have input from experts, current pros, former pros, leading soloQ players etc.
Some silver 3 player who makes a "nerf X" post, however well-edited, however well-argued, will ultimately just not have the same ring of truth or depth of knowledge that Riot has.
There's little or no reason for Riot to listen to us in terms of game balance. Skin concepts? Sure - where do you think the bunny riven concept came from? A leading forum member(forgot his name) came up with it, and the post got massive upvotes. Game balance? In general no.
But have they never listened to us?
I'll give you a great example of why we are so stupid. We always QQ about mobility creep in this game. But do you know why it started? The real root of the problem was with the existence of flash as a summoner spell.
4 years ago, when the game was much smaller, Riot actually proposed to remove flash from the game and let US, the community decide. A poll was put up, the answer was overwhelmingly NO, WE WANT FLASH.
Riot obviously understood the implications (longterm) of keeping such a toxic spell in the game. We did not. All we cared about was our next game, and if we didn't have flash, we would die.
As a result, the MOST TOXIC spell EVER was kept in the game and dictated mobility creep for years to come.
This is why we as a community are stupid, and its ridiculous to assume Riot doesn't know what they are doing regards balance.
manbearswine1 votesYeah exactly, not everything that looks like a mistake is a mistake. Huge thing that gets overlooked. Sometimes champs aren't really OP, but we as a community just have difficulty learning to play around them.
This actually isn't how lol works,the community will never learn to play around anything,because riot discourages that. "hmm,amumu might be too strong in solo q next patch,as people keep grouping...alright,let's nerf him" same thing with the jinx nerfs. I mean it's one thing to nerf evelynn because people won't adapt their picks and just can't coordinate well on a solo q level,but jinx and amumu?
Sometimes as mentioned above by me in a different post, they just leave certain champs OP to increase skin sales.
They generally don't leave them op,but they often leave them very strong,or buff them. I mean look at the amount of skins ahri is getting,now look at how much attention and balance she is getting. And then look at zyra.
I think its not fair to put Riot knowledge on the same level as our knowledge, even a high elo player.
You're wrong here,riot seems not be following too much their higher elos,instead focusing on winrates,high elo role mains generally know their role better than riot does.
The truth is Riot is probably far more qualified than us, so many Rioters are diamond+ players themselves, they have experienced game designers, they have input from experts, current pros, former pros, leading soloQ players etc.
Very few rioters are actually diamond+,and even if you take someone like phreak,he's not even on the balance team.
Some silver 3 player who makes a "nerf X" post, however well-edited, however well-argued, will ultimately just not have the same ring of truth or depth of knowledge that Riot has.
It depends,he might just be telling what everyone already knows,but generally yes,a silver,as much as they love believing otherwise,just doesn't really understand how the game works.
There's little or no reason for Riot to listen to us in terms of game balance.
I disagree,diamonds can offer solid insight into things which can easily be missed by riot,masters/challengers generally know their main roles inside out.
Skin concepts? Sure - where do you think the bunny riven concept came from? A leading forum member(forgot his name) came up with it, and the post got massive upvotes. Game balance? In general no.
But have they never listened to us?
I'll give you a great example of why we are so stupid. We always QQ about mobility creep in this game. But do you know why it started? The real root of the problem was with the existence of flash as a summoner spell.
I really don't know why flash is blamed on all of this,the problem with mobility is lack of trades off for having it,there's nothing wrong with champions getting more mobile as long as the immobile ones don't get left behind,but they do.
4 years ago, when the game was much smaller, Riot actually proposed to remove flash from the game and let US, the community decide. A poll was put up, the answer was overwhelmingly NO, WE WANT FLASH.
I think the community was right there.
Riot obviously understood the implications (longterm) of keeping such a toxic spell in the game. We did not. All we cared about was our next game, and if we didn't have flash, we would die.
I disagree,riot was very new then,they created fizz back then,nobody knew the long term implication of this spell,though frankly there is nothing wrong with it.
As a result, the MOST TOXIC spell EVER was kept in the game and dictated mobility creep for years to come.
You're just scapegoating flash here.
This is why we as a community are stupid, and its ridiculous to assume Riot doesn't know what they are doing regards balance.
The community as a whole is far from stupid,the arrogant silvers on these boards are. I mean take zyra for example,the champion clearly has serious issues,she's at 2% pickrate for a reason,but people here just love to believe they are geniuses,the champions if fine,and everyone but them is stupid and sheep(ironically most of these guys don't/rarely play her as well). But as far as the whole community goes,they make a very clear statement with her pickrate. The same(but opposite) goes for thresh,clearly op,but people here once again,want to believe themselves geniuses and that everyone else is stupid and sheep.
Listening to the community is fine,just read the whole post and see if that person knows what he is talking about.
LordGeovanni1 votesless wrong than people they may find another way to balance a champion that taking away an overbearing strength they might add an overbearing weakness which i think is less balanced and just adds extremes to how effective people are at points
Budupops1 voteslux 55% win rate since buffs
Teridax683 votesI think the issue has more to do with the overall quality of the threads here than the overall elo of the people posting them. A lot of the threads here, including a pretty regular stream of highly upvoted threads, tend to simply complain about a champion or set of champions without offering anything of substance Riot could pick up on to incorporate as constructive feedback. A lot of the statements made in those posts also tend to be misinformed, distorted or outright fabricated, and often exist just to gather upvotes from similarly-minded players here, rather than truly attempt to discuss a topic in a civilized manner. This is done in a manner pretty indiscriminate of elo, too, so even Diamond players on these boards are just as likely to make low-quality threads as someone in Bronze or Silver (or Unranked). Deeper down, there's likely a problem of incentives on these boards, which reward popularity over quality, and don't pay much attention to the amount of effort put into each post. Reddit wasn't entirely the best model to to base the boards' functionality upon, and we might need a change to the boards' structure in order for G&B to have a better atmosphere.
Ternt1 votesBalance is highly based around higher level play because these people understand the game more. I've said it before, but champions like Garen are perma banned in my elo (Silver), but not nearly as much as you go up because higher level players can exploit the weaknesses and strengths of champions efficiently. Kiting/animation canceling are barely a thing in Silver, so people like Garen are a huge problem. Also, most reddit threads I read complaining about balance bring a TON of information along with it explaining why x doesn't work.
Hugify1 votesOh yeah,better listen to reddit,obviously they know balance!
Budupops1 votesreddit is bronze as well
BeMyFriendPlease1 votesOnly pros can speak, all you other plebs aren't welcome here!
Real though, if all the "gold and under" players quit, I'm curious how many people would be left in this game?
Gubaguy1 votesJust pointing this out, but if 90% of your community isnt gold, and are complaining about somehting that makes the game generaly unfun for them (vayne, riven, etc), 9% are above gold and could care less, and 1% are LCS and dont want change... you shoudl be listening to the 90%. they make up the bulk of your game, dont ignore them jsut because you think they dont know what they really want. If the 9% above gold, and the LCS told you that stabbing yourself in the dick was goign to make you play better are you goign to listen to them? No, youa rent.
The fact is riot has a duty to the playerbase to make the game fun and fair for EVERYONE, not strictly for the 10%.
Budupops1 votesbro BRO
hai
The Sword Saint1 votesIt's not that 'low elo players don't know what they want', it's that 'low elo players aren't good enough or don't know how to correctly play fundamental aspects of the game and this causes certain champions and strategies that aren't a problem in high elo to become a problem in low elo - not because plenty of counterplay and strategies to handle them don't exist but because low elo players aren't using them'.
What happens when low elo players learn to consistently handle these fundamentals? They stop being low elo.
Gubaguy1 votesthats a pretty close minded way of looking at things. I could have, and shoudl have been in gold already, but when you get paired with trolls, feeders, or plaeyrs who spite you in ranked over positions you get screwwed. So now im stuck in low elo games tha ti cant get out of becuase i cant carry games with my current attitude of "Ill fill" and then seeing my best position feed and cost us the game. Or getting my best position and having a close lane then lsoing because my jungler refuses to gank, meanwhile the opponents wont stop ganking.
the fact is low elo isnt jsut "bad" players, its good plaeyrs who get screwwed by the bad ones. And it doesnt matter if not all players understand something, there are some champs that are so OP that they can afk and win the game, ive seen it happen. I watched a pre-rework fiora DC, so my team took advantage of it and rushed her before she got to base, she stopped midway back and 3 of us attacked her, and an AFK fiora, using no abilities, nearly killed us 1v3. Ive seen vayne's 1v5 teams, ive seen rengars 1v5 teams, yo0u cant sit there and say its all low ELO players not understanding when its clear that the champ is broken.
The Sword Saint1 votesA champ that's too strong just needs some numbers tuned back.
A champ that's actually broken can be strong or weak at the moment, but that's not the point. Being broken means that the way their abilities work prevent them from being allowed to be strong by Riot since they warp the game in an unreasonable or unhealthy way that force players to play in an extremely unsatisfying or counter intuitive way, or which present false decisions to players.
Poppy is broken because of her ultimate and the fact that her passive actively discourages you from trying to finish her off the lower her health gets. She is not allowed to be strong because she makes the game unfun her her existence prevents others from making meaningful decisions.
Unless the champ you're talking about is fundamentally flawed in ways that warp the entire game in an unhealthy way, they aren't broken.
TurquoiseYoshi1 votes1: Like the community as a whole. That classification also includes you.
2: Who really wants to farm upvotes?
3: A post complaining about complainers, complains about Lux. Hypocritical much? She really isn't that good if you actually know her strong and weak points.
Budupops1 voteslow rank. case closed.
WaruMonzae1 votesYeah I agree most of the players in GnB are very low elo most of the time, not saying im top tier ranked but im not bronze/silver. So its very hard to discuss game balance in GnB as the second you disagree with someone and even explaining why you still get a response along "Nope he/she is broken"