"Sona was nerfed due to early game pressure"

Budupops·Jan 25, 2015·76 votes·6,122 views

Meanwhile Strongest early game since his release.

138 Comments

Nucleophilic atkJan 25, 201530 votes

Meanwhile, Azir

TonyTonyMordecaiJan 25, 20153 votes

IDK about Azir now... Against certain champions, he's a God, but against others.... He's useless. Viktor destroys Azir... Unless there are some very helpful strategies to use when playing as Azir to stay ahead. Know of any?

Nucleophilic atkJan 25, 201510 votes

Whenever I play against him, he just throws soldiers out there and farms with them. Then, you can't touch him lol. If you try to gank him, he just uses his other soldier to get away. If your jungler isn't around, he will use his 2nd soldier to go pew pew on you. I just think he is really "oppressive", to use rito's word, in lane. I don't like that considering they are nerfing champs that they say are "oppressive" cough cough.

TonyTonyMordecaiJan 25, 20153 votes

Sona becomes good once she has gold, and doesn't get killed too often. She is indeed strong, but later on, and especially against squishy targets.

It Is I EmotoJan 25, 20158 votes

"once she has gold" Yeah, because she can't reliable on her own spells, wich makes her so weak right now. She has to build ap to be actually any use, and people rage about that, and many like me complain about that because she was not supposed to do that before her rework. A completly thrash rework that forces sona to build ap to be any useful.

Gear KittyJan 25, 201511 votes

Y-...

You can say that about EVERY FUCKING CHAMPION (maybe not Soraka, depends on how much AP you can squeeze into her).

Are you trolling, high, or just plain dumb?

Rock RockburghJan 25, 20154 votes

Soraka actually gets pretty crazy lategame. If you build straight AP after your sightstone/support item, she can recover about 200 health per target hit. Three-man starcall? You've just caused a 1200 health swing (more when you consider that it lets you heal your teammates more) on less than a five-second cooldown. (Morello's and another 20% CDR item brings Starcall to 4.1 seconds, I think.)

Her ONLY problem is that she's dead as soon as you flank her. If she can avoid that situation, she's pretty much unstoppable-- especially while Wish is up.

TonyTonyMordecaiJan 30, 20151 votes

If you aren't in the lane very often, then you can't get XP or gold. And no, I'm not trolling. Would you like me to?

Gear KittyJan 30, 20152 votes

No, I meant your grasp of the English language seemed tenuous if you weren't trolling or high.

ALL CHAMPIONS GET BETTER WHEN THEY GET GOLD AND DON'T DIE. It's literally the nature of the game.

No one gets negative stats as they level or buy items (except Soraka, again). Of course Sona is better later in the game when she can boost her numbers with acquired gold.

I think what you mean is that she's more EFFECTIVE late game, which is actually a problem people bring up I might add. She's a poke-sustain champ, the laning phase should be her best. She -needs- to be a lane bully, because otherwise she has no presence outside her Ult, something Riot doesn't want, but can't seem to grasp themselves.

SEKAIJan 25, 201522 votes

Sona can't complain anyways, she just can't and bullies like to pick on that, disgraceful!

Tbh what early pressure does she have, besides "hey hey hey I spam you!!" and going oom after pressing 2 buttons?

If anything she is mostly useless until lvl 6 kicks in, where she can actually have some pressure, which is already mid game by then.

Rito logic aye, nerf early monsters if you really wanna do it, like idk Fizz Gnar JarvanIV LeeSin Zed Thresh Udyr etc?

TonyTonyMordecaiJan 25, 20154 votes

That is a good point, as once those champions start to get ahead, they are very difficult to shut down. They already have nerfs in store for Fizz/Zed... But AS nerf on Zed isn't going to do squat for him, and I have a sneaking suspicion that Fizz's "nerfs" are going to turn out to be buffs?

JØJłJan 25, 20156 votes

Yeah, Fizz's "nerfs" are pretty much buffs... I mean, he just got Ahri's 20% amp on his ult.... meaning once he hits his ult on you... you're still pretty much dead in one or two hits.

JunkοJan 25, 201511 votes

Fizz and Zed aren't early game (Zed needs his ult and Fizz needs an item or 2 first). Though if Sona is "oppressive" early game then they should nerf Zed too. Let's not even talk about how strong Thresh is at all stages of the game compared to Sona.

TarynJan 25, 201517 votes

I'm gonna fix your title a bit to better fit the situation as a whole:

"Sona was nerfed"

Meanwhile LeeSin

HorrowJan 25, 201516 votes

"Early game pressure"

Does anyone any Riot realize that you can just poke back at sona? Or if you're Thresh/Leona/Blitz, just catch her when she WALKS up to your ADC to poke? Sona is squishy as fuck and doesn't have the range of a god. She puts herself in range of counterplay every time she goes up to hit you with an auto-empowered Q.

TarynJan 25, 201511 votes

No because according to everyone that doesn't actually play Sona you in fact do have the range of a god and you also become invulnerable while casting any of your spells.

Silents429Jan 25, 20154 votes

As an Ali, Nautilus and Fiddle support, Going to poke back a Sona results in not only getting hit by Sona, But also the enemy ADC. And any poke I did to her, she heals right back up instantly. Along with any poke the ADC took.

Its not so much shes a problem to the current hot picks bot lane, but to any lane that has no way of healing, It isn't that hard for Sona to bully, from what I witnessed.

I suggested in the past making her Q a skill shot instead, then you know. Counterplay, dodges etc. But then I get downvoted to hell because Sona mains think pressing Q and auto aiming is a better idea.

OHminusJan 25, 20155 votes

{quoted}

As an Ali, Nautilus and Fiddle support, Going to poke back a Sona results in not only getting hit by Sona, But also the enemy ADC. And any poke I did to her, she heals right back up instantly. Along with any poke the ADC took.

Its not so much shes a problem to the current hot picks bot lane, but to any lane that has no way of healing, It isn't that hard for Sona to bully, from what I witnessed.

I suggested in the past making her Q a skill shot instead, then you know. Counterplay, dodges etc. But then I get downvoted to hell because Sona mains think pressing Q and auto aiming is a better idea.

Then don't play naut, fid, and ali against her. Those supports (especially alistar) are countered by her. Blitzcrank and Leona beat her. Also, making q a skillshot would make sona urgot level. Her spells aren't mana efficient early on, and you need a mana regen item before you can be effective.

Silents429Jan 25, 20154 votes

Not all of us play ranked and see they have a Sona. I am not going to learn a new support (Quite frankly they all suck ass) to beat 1 champion I only -might- see.

Compensate her then, she doesn't need to have a high mana cost on it, The reason it's a pain to balance now is the fact it isn't one. It can have high damage and low mana cost, as long as its dodge able.

And I don't know what bot lane you play with, but a mana regen item is gotten with the first 8 minutes of the game. Sometimes first, since 2 of the gold items give mana regen, and if any support builds runes/masteries like I do, they would get mana regen from their too.

TarynJan 25, 20155 votes

I play Sona literally 90% of my time playing League, and I hate having to face Thresh or Blitz or Leona when I can't see that the enemy team picked them (since your complaints are around blind picks and not ranked where you would hopefully be smart and not counter yourself.) Does this mean that those champions should be nerfed because I unknowingly countered myself?

No it means I should be a decent player and learn how to deal with it.

Silents429Jan 25, 20153 votes

Ohh, Your argument is that I am pissy over the fact she -counters- my champions, and therfore I think she should be nerfed, and the only POSSIBLE reason I would lose is from the fact I am not a decent player, Oh the originality.

I think your mistaking what I said for "NERF HER!" when I actually tried hinting that maybe Sona should actually take more skill then perhaps, none at all? Having to literally just know positioning is all you need to know how to use Sona, and thats why she isn't healing a lot or doing a lot of damage, because their is no aiming, their is walk up and press a few keys on the keyboard, and let the game pick who it hits. (I have played Sona a few times I know how she works)

I say buff her healing (Or up its scaling) Lower the mana costs a bit, turn the Q into a skill shot with a bit higher mana cost but more damage.

This way she can retain her bully presence while having counterplay, and Heal people without going OOM.

But I haven't really witnessed enemy supports running out of mana, nor myself have had the issue, and I tend to spam shit like its candy. And chances are if a Sona is running out of mana from healing then either her or the ADC need to quit getting hit.

DevotìonJan 25, 20151 votes

So... we should make katarina have skill shots along with yi and yorick right? because they take about as much skill as sona and have a higher damage output so they should be reworked as well right?

Silents429Jan 26, 20151 votes

Except they don't just press a key and have an ability auto hit a champion.

DevotìonJan 26, 20155 votes

actually kata's ult is auto hit.. so yeah... and kata support even though it is troll pick is even more annoying than sona or any other support considering no mana cost+ her e for escape if caught by blitz plus the tons of damage she can output

Silents429Jan 26, 20151 votes

Except Kat is useless to any CC, and most ADC's being mobile just move out of the way. Support kat is dumb.

TarynJan 26, 20153 votes

Kinda like how Sona is useless to any CC and most ADC's being mobile can simply just move out of range?

Silents429Jan 26, 20151 votes

Oh wow, Wasting CC you still get poked, and she heals it back. Blowing your escape just to avoid the unavoidable? Gee can't imagine the problem their.

Pika310Jan 27, 20153 votes

Oh wow, Wasting CC you still get poked, and she heals it back. Blowing your escape just to avoid the unavoidable? Gee can't imagine the problem their.

So we just need CC that isn't considered "wasteful" and an escape that we aren't just "blowing."

Jinx

"Yay! Free kills!"

Pika310Jan 27, 20152 votes

Or change her Q to have counterplay outside of "Get away from her"

Sure. While we're at it, auto attacks need to have counterplay outside of "Get away from them." Currently, these are the culprits:

http://gameinfo.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/

All of them lack counterplay on their basic attacks other than, "stay away from them."

While we're at it, every single-target spell in the game needs to have counterplay outside of "Don't go near them." To name just a few:

Warwick Nautilus Garen Ryze Trundle Jarvan IV Shen ... and many more.

All of these champions have single-target abilities that completely lack "counterplay" other than "Keeping away from them."

Mmm, these cardboard 7 logic discussions are fun. It's not often I don't even have to try to tear apart someone's argument because of how badly counter-intuitive it is to itself.

RaptameiJan 31, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Or change her Q to have counterplay outside of "Get away from her"

How about "kill her".

TarynJan 26, 20155 votes

With that logic we need to remove every point and click ability from the entire game because the amount of skill that takes is exactly the same as Sona.

Having to actually click on the champion once you're in range to get your guaranteed damage doesn't take any more skill than Sonas Q.

DiostukosJan 25, 20157 votes

{quoted}

Not all of us play ranked and see they have a Sona. I am not going to learn a new support (Quite frankly they all suck ass) to beat 1 champion I only -might- see.

There's this thing, called draft pick, it just came out yesterday! :O

No but what does Sona even counter anymore? Even /Janna/ can win against her now. A few days ago I went Janna support against a Sona; no ap but my spellthiefs and I was easily able to block her poke with my shield. That's supposed to be a mathcup in favor of Sona and it's not anymore.

Compensate her then, she doesn't need to have a high mana cost on it, The reason it's a pain to balance now is the fact it isn't one. It can have high damage and low mana cost, as long as its dodge able.

What they need to do is give back the %missing health ratio. If they don't want her to have easy lane-sustain, simply keep the high mana cost so she can still clutch heal, but not top off without going oom.

And I don't know what bot lane you play with, but a mana regen item is gotten with the first 8 minutes of the game. Sometimes first, since 2 of the gold items give mana regen, and if any support builds runes/masteries like I do, they would get mana regen from their too.

I get 3 glyphs and 9 seals of mana regen and I still go oom as Sona trying to useful in-lane. Tear is pretty much the only mana-related item that doesn't suck atm.

Silents429Jan 25, 20152 votes

Playing draft mode to ban 1 underpowered champion is one of the dumbest things you can suggest. Just ban Lee Sin, Oh look guys I figured it out, we just ban Lee, and now he isn't a problem.
Yes after reworks and nerfs, who you do and don't counter tends to change, did we not just establish 3 supports I play that she "counters" ?
I main Yorick, and using a tear is hell on earth, The tear is one of the worst for mana regen. And get scaling mana regen, it outscales flat regen by level 6, Add that to masteries, and the gold item, Plenty of mana.

DiostukosJan 25, 20158 votes

{quoted}

Playing draft mode to ban 1 underpowered champion is one of the dumbest things you can suggest. Just ban Lee Sin, Oh look guys I figured it out, we just ban Lee, and now he isn't a problem.

Yes after reworks and nerfs, who you do and don't counter tends to change, did we not just establish 3 supports I play that she "counters" ?

She doesn't counter anyone; even Riot said she's doesn't push anyone out of the support role, (but somehow she's being oppressive..).

Nautilus is not a support, Alistar can easily deal with Sona's poke, as well as hard engage on her (which is what reks her), I've never seen a Fiddlesticks support so I won't say I know how that goes.

I main Yorick, and using a tear is hell on earth, The tear is one of the worst for mana regen. And get scaling mana regen, it outscales flat regen by level 6, Add that to masteries, and the gold item, Plenty of mana.

Except you need the most mana regen in the early level because that's where you need to make the most impact. I suggested tear because things like Chalice are stronger when you have more flat mana.

Silents429Jan 25, 20151 votes

Everyone counters and can be countered, I would love to see where Riot said Sona counters no one.
Nautilus is perfectly viable as a support, 4 CC's He has the ability to pull and lock down someone for 3-4 seconds while your ADC hits them. Alistar can not easily deal with her poke knocking her back still throws you behind their minion wave for free damage.
The frostfang, an item most Sona mains grab gives twice the mana regen, with slightly higher cost. The tear is a not a good item.

Pika310Jan 25, 20158 votes

Sona loses lane to EVERY support. She's tied for lowest base damage, has the weakest and most expensive heal in the game and is EXTREMELY squishy and highly immobile. In the most recent patch notes, 5.1 Riot states that they don't want Sona to be playable against ANY other supports. Hence they'll keep nerfing her every time she SOMEHOW miraculously wins a lane.
Again, Sona has the lowest damage output in the support class. If she's harassing you down, that's your own fault, it takes a VERY long time and a completely passive opponent for her to accomplish this. Alistar especially is one of the EASIEST champions to sustain against her as he has hard CC, heals and can effectively use Relic shield, which ALSO heals more than Sona.
Frostfang got nerfed REALLY hard. It's not worth its gold value and buying it sets you behind your opponent.

DiostukosJan 25, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Everyone counters and can be countered, I would love to see where Riot said Sona counters no one.

"Anyway, let's talk about Sona for a bit. I can definitely appreciate the perspective that she isn't really crowding out support selection diversity. That said, we want to stay on top of the successes and shortcomings of all of our champion reworks, and we feel that some of Sona's gameplay patterns are not the most healthy experience for bot lane. Fighting Sona has a lot of strategic depth that you talk about (pick hard engage or burst characters like Leona to fight her), but we want counterplay to extend past champion select and still be relevant tactically (in lane). The MS change is intended to give enemies without extremely strong engagement capabilities a fair shot at fighting Sona, without exaggerating her weaknesses to hard engage that something like a base HP/armor adjustment would do.

Understandably, Sona isn't perceived as particularly strong, given that she isn't being picked every game (especially in competitive play), and does not seem like she is taking over games that she is in. " - Riot Jag

Nautilus is perfectly viable as a support, 4 CC's He has the ability to pull and lock down someone for 3-4 seconds while your ADC hits them. Alistar can not easily deal with her poke knocking her back still throws you behind their minion wave for free damage.

Alistar's level 1 heal and Sona's level 1 heal is the same. That combined with Relic shield is ample sustain to survive her poke.

The frostfang, an item most Sona mains grab gives twice the mana regen, with slightly higher cost. The tear is a not a good item.

Except you're glossing over the fact that you don't take tear for mana regen, you take it for flat mana so you can be in extended fights for a lot longer.

Silents429Jan 26, 20151 votes

No one where does Riot say Sona counters no one.
Alistars heal, heals -half- its total amount to allies and minions, and only fully heals himself. Therefore weaker then Sonas.
My mistake, I was under the impression frostfang gave mana. I also never witnessed a support buy a tear.

DiostukosJan 26, 20156 votes

{quoted}

No one where does Riot say Sona counters no one.

Alistars heal, heals -half- its total amount to allies and minions, and only fully heals himself. Therefore weaker then Sonas.

My mistake, I was under the impression frostfang gave mana. I also never witnessed a support buy a tear.

Alistar SELF HEAL: 60 / 90 / 120 / 150 / 180 (+20% AP) ALLY HEAL: 30 / 45 / 60 / 75 / 90 (+10% AP)

Sona HEAL: 30 / 50 / 70 / 90 / 110 (+ 20% AP) MAX. HEAL: 45 / 75 / 105 / 135 / 165 (+ 30% AP)

I guess if you combine them Sona's will only outscale at lower health. Let's see: math time

Alistar's combined heal: 90/135/180/225/270(+30% AP) [this is only taking into account one ally, Alistar's heal can heal multiple people] 180/260/360/450/540(+60% AP) [With his whole team, so really only happens mid-late game/dragon fights]

Sona's combined heal: 60/100/140/180/220(+%40 AP) 90/150/210/265/330/(%60AP) [near death situation]

You do however, have to take into account that to surpass Alistar's heal, Sona has to have both herself and ally at near death. Alistar can also heal more than one person, as well as minions, at a lower mana cost.

Now, please don't assume I'm saying "omg gut Alistar's heal, it's OP", I just don't like it when people's argument for Sona is that she has an OP heal.

TarynJan 25, 20157 votes

So you're admitting that Sona is underpowered but you still can't handle learning to lane against her?

You're the definition of the League of Legends community.

Silents429Jan 25, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=White Rose13,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yeo3dMz7,comment-id=0009000100000000000100000001,timestamp=2015-01-25T18:09:19.462+0000)

So you're admitting that Sona is underpowered but you still can't handle learning to lane against her?

You're the definition of the League of Legends community.

I am admitting shes underpowered but her Q is brain dead you twit.

TarynJan 25, 20155 votes

Looking at the champions that you've played most recently (and admitting you main Yorick) I don't think you're in a good spot to talk about what's low skill.

Silents429Jan 26, 20151 votes

I main multiple champions, and OH NO YOU SEEN MY RECENT GAMES!

That must somehow invalidate the 2 years I have been playing League. Oh dear.

TarynJan 26, 20155 votes

Not saying that at all, I'm just commenting on what information you've given us. I was assuming that for someone who talks so low of a champion with "no skill" that you would use champions deemed high skill and just blow me right out of the water.

Alas I was wrong. And I've been playing 3 years, since apparently you felt the need to tell me how long you've been playing I'm assuming that also means something? Unless that was your attempt at saying "well I've been playing X amount of time hohoho" cause I mean I guess that's cool?

Also the players at LCS right now haven't even given Sona a glance even though she's SO easy to win lane with. I wonder why that is?

Maybe because...she's not?

Icy AuronJan 26, 20153 votes

I don't understand why people complain about Sona. I LOVE seeing a Sona on the enemy team, she's even squishier than her marksman, and she doesn't have anything on Soraka in terms of sustain. Her damage is pretty high for a support, but she has mana costs and dies easily. Meanwhile, Thresh also has high damage, more utility, is tanky, and mana isn't a problem on him at almost any point during the game.