Vel'koz, his current state and suggestions for future changes.

TheSingularity··5 votes·685 views

Currently Vel'koz's rework has left him in a rather ok-ish state damage wise. He has a weak window early, where his poke and wave clear are meh compared to other champions at that point. But he scales pretty well with items, but only ever reaches a true damage fantasy late-game..... against squishy opponents. His kit feels solid for the most part, the passive is strong, the Q, W and E were tweaked to a state which I feel is a pretty good trade-off for the scaling ap bonus on his passive. However despite this, his ultimate feels very lack-lustre, despite the numbers and acknowledgement of what was a concerning amount of true damage. It feels like it deals next to nothing, against anyone, even if you land the research stack. These changes were intended to make him more of a "tank shredder" but his ult struggles to kill carries, let alone bruisers and tanks. And that's if everything goes perfectly and the entire ult lands. The original intentions of this rework, to me, have failed. They wanted him to be the tank-shredding, true damage mage. However.... he's anything but a tank shredder at the moment. Why? because it's flat true damage. You need to survive vel'koz? Build warmogs, 6 of them.

Now I'm not asking for a ranged fiora. SO DON'T YOU DARE GIVE VEL'KOZ %HP TRUE DAMAGE!

But his ratios on Q,W and E suck to say the least, but they always have :) But this was overcome with magic penetration centric builds that relied on his passives' damage. This was a unique build, as very few champions are centred around magic pen builds to compensate for low ratios (champions with DOT don't count as their ratios are usually decent, IE rumble, cass, brand) However now in order to deal damage, Vel MUST! buy the same old boring flat ap items as every other dam mage in this game, in order to jam as much true damage into his passive as possible. This contradicts vel'koz's 3 base spells due to their sh*ty scalings.

But here's the sad part. This so called new "tank shredder" shreds tanks better with the old full magic pen build (runes and all) with item 3135 item 3116 item 3020 item 3151 to boot than the new intended MASS ABILITY POWER BUILD. Generally a ludens and hourglass follows those items. That's 35%+95AP lost from runes and items that could buffer the passive/ultimate. And instead I deal what feels like several orders of magnitude in additional damage without ever using my ult, instead relying on kiting, base damage and my passive. The ult feels like it's just for show, or a kill secure spell.

At the moment 695.25 Ability power is achieved on average when a full build is reached, excluding elixirs, buffs and masteries and generally resembling something like this >> item 3089 item 3165 item 3151 item 3116 item 3020 item 3285

With the old Lifeform Disintegration Ray, he was capable of delivering a total of 10 stacks of organic deconstruction over its duration, procing it 3 times for 213 true damage each time at lvl 18. This could accommodate a 4th proc if 2 stacks were pre-applied, maxing out at 852 true damage on top of 1317 magic damage if all ticks are applied. Total=2169 mixed damage.

Currently, without ult procs, you can proc it twice (once on multiple targets with w+e, second on usually a single target with Q+W) for around 1033 true damage from the 2 procs as a whole. But if they end up researched, just over 1800 true damage from the ult alone, can be dished out. But only if every single tick is applied, he lands organic deconstruction and remains uninterrupted for its duration. Now both these scenarios, rely on lvl 18 late-game fantasy. But pre-rework vel'koz scaled faster than current vel'koz. Because his true damage passive ramped up faster and his overall build was cheaper than the current.

Don't get me wrong, I'm bad, but not incapable of landing my combos. But there is very little reward for landing all your spells and then ulting a researched target. You may be wondering "WTF ARE YOU ON ABOUT YOU DUMBF*CK? LOOK AT THAT TRUE DAMAGE!" but think of it this way. YOU DEAL OVER 50% OF YOUR ULTS DAMAGE AS TRUE DAMAGE, and possibly in under a second(less than 2/5 of the ult duration), with basic spells alone. So why the hell would you immobilise yourself, make yourself easy to pick off and deal next to no damage to the front line tanks peeling for their carries? when you can just kite around until your cool downs are done, which would result in longer up-time, allowing you to help in peeling and to top it off, more damage.

As a consequence of slower passive damage ramp-up. Riot has also killed something very close to my heart, jungle vel'koz. This too, relied on the true damage and high base damages of pre-rework vel'koz. Now his early clear times are an abomination. And his ult is next to useless for kill secures. Obviously this is of little significance, but I miss de-constructing the doubt in my team mates when I lock him in with smite [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Pre-possible solutions: Vel'koz does not need stat re-allocations. He does not need scaling/base damage/CD buffs. He needs a piece of his soul to come back from the past Possible solutions: 1: This one will likely get some flack, but riot won't revert these new changes so something has to be proposed that builds off their current design. This proposal with definitely give him a damage boost, and will allow him to ram up faster but he will still suffer if he doesn't land his research stacks (read Research) Obviously this is all theoretical, please don't go all nasi over the numbers. Just suggestions. Life form disintegration Ray: Base damage reverted and reduced to 500 / 700 / 900 from 500 / 725 / 950. Returning: Now applies stacks of organic deconstruction just like before the rework. Research: Passive procs as a result from LFDR can not apply a research de-buff to the opponent. In order to deal the true damage bonus, the enemy MUST be researched with passive procs from either Q/W/E before Vel'koz ults. Explanation Vel'koz is extremely busy splurging purple death energy all over his enemies and can't accommodate research and organic deconstruction simultaneously.

This maintains his skill cap, and by lowering the the base damage again, which may need to be lower as I just went with a buff revert to be safe. It will accommodate more RELIABLE DAMAGE that will allow him to actually, be a tank shredder.

2: The one we don't want. Convert passive damage to %HP true damage on proc. Enough said, we have seen it go wrong enough times but it may as well be up for discussion.

3: Decrease passive/ult scaling. Buff base damage and chuck a little bit of it into his P/E/R. This will allow him to have more reliable damage outside of his ult/passive during sieges or skirmishes.

Just my verdict. I love vel, I really do. But it's painful, for his most iconic spell, to feel so...................underwhelming at best. KrakenKnight out [zombie-brand-mindblown]

20 Comments

Sir Hammerlock1 votes

Vel'Koz, I feel like, will always be weak due to the way his abilities work. He's too inconsistent and too reliant on his ultimate for ultimate team-fight effectiveness. There's so many other mages or assassins to play mid lane that reward you highly for skill, whereas Vel'Koz is just not that rewarding overall.

TheSingularity3 votes

I feel he is rewarding, well was. As he's one of the few mages who can outplay assassins without reviving/stasis. And he it's extremely satisfying to snipe with geometric q's. He has the tools to deal with just about anybody who isn't azir. Just gotta be able to use em <3

Vanic9981 votes

How does he have a weak early window? His new passive is stronger at every level. He actually has a stronger early window.

TheSingularity2 votes

Lower scaling on every spell making him weaker in trades pre 6. Making him more reliant of procing his passive to deal damage. Not very hard to not get 3 stacked, unless you're a melee/low mobility mid laner

Vanic9981 votes

He does not have lower scaling on every ability. It's only his W and E which were compensated with the AP scaling on his passive. With the old VELKOZ, you NEVER use ONLY W or ONLY E. You either had to use E with W or W with another W. You should be doing the same combo with the reworked VELKOZ which is actually more rewarding since the rework made part of the W and E magic damage basically converted to true damage.

TheSingularity1 votes

My apologies, you are correct and I have over-exaggerated my point. The issue is that, due to the passive changes, VEL MUST BUILD AP. His spells don't scale very well with ap, making Mpen more appealing. However if you go Mpen, you sacrifice allot of true damage, which riot has put 99% emphasis on using. He has one role, and one role only. Proc passive and ult. Before you could jungle with him, siege like a boss, and your build was less expensive allowing one to grasp bad situations back into one's own favour. Now.....he's binary AF, it's not about whittling them down for a knock-up/slow+ult combo. Now it's just, GET 3 STACKS AT ALL COSTS THEN ULT MINDLESSLY. It's a real boner killer, because I can't have strong basic spells and a strong passive like I used to, because one needs Mpen and the other AP to be at optimal efficiency. Jungle Koz is dead because of it, because he can't clear with the wimpy early, CD reliant true damage and testicle tickling spells.

Vanic9981 votes

He has low AP scalings? He has 50% which is good for a passive and 125% for his ult. his basic abilities are fine. They allocated the 42.5% total scaling lost from W and E into 50% in his passive and in true damage. With the old VELKOZ, you NEVER use W alone or E alone. You always had to follow w with either e or another w and you still do the same combo with the reworked VELKOZ so by procing the new passive, you really do more damage with your basic abilities. VELKOZ is mostly the same riot just converted some of his magic damage into true damage to make up his new niche as a tank buster.

TheSingularity1 votes

I said spells bae, I never said anything about bad passive AP scaling

Vanic9981 votes

Well you gotta consider the passive man. That's how the scaling nerf to his w and e were compensated.

strut2 votes

You are not going to land 3 stacks every trade. Unless the enemy is immobile enough and doesn't have an opportunity to outtrade you.

Vanic9981 votes

Oh I beg to differ. That is why velkoz's difficulty bar is so high. For a skilled VELKOZ player, predicting your opponents movement enables you to aim your e right and once you do, you will always win the trade. I actually wish my opponent got close to me since E is velkoz's shortest range ability. A skilled VELKOZ player will also know how to use the Q to maximum potential. With proper aiming, you can proc the passive with the Q alone.

strut2 votes

There are champions that have abilities that are great for dodging skillshots. I am sure you have met them on mid. i am talking about these champions. There are games when you are not going to stack up 3 stacks all the time. Not because you are not a good player but as a reason to champions that counter your mechanics. In these scenarios you are more likely going to trade with skillshots in a way that your stacks will disappear before you could follow them up. The better you are the more you can hit these people too yes but your abilities have a max range and can be predicted as well.

There's another person on that lane that (unless you are smurfing) ought to be on a similiar skill level as yours. Players can be skilled in landing skillshots and players can be skilled in dodging them.

Many people here speak about a good Vel'koz player as a god that lands everything. Remember it doesn't only depend on you. It depends on the enemy as well.

strut1 votes

What people fail to realise is that many of us dislike the changes because of the playstyle chane not the actual numbers and stats. He just doesn't feel the same no matter how strong he is.

TheSingularity2 votes

Pretty much..... he didn't need to be changed. In theory, he was the most perfect mage out of them all. Evidence: There has never been any absurd abundance in OP/UP/toxic to vs threads concerning vel'koz. He was rarely touched, a few QoL here and there changes and some fine tuning post-release, but apart from that. He was perfect. He was immobile, strong but not too strong, interesting to play as/against and above all, unique and balanced. Now he's just a damage bot, who copies the same build as everyone else. Don't even need the new true damage ult proc. Just go full magic pen and job done, you're practically dealing true damage to carries and rylais/liandries provides the tank shred. They achieved nothing positive with his rework, they only stripped vel'koz of his identity, and of his status as the most perfect mage in league of legends IMO.

Goosetard1 votes

You're saying stuff I say a lot. I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels this way.

I'm gonna disagree here and there with things you said, but it's solely academic and just for the sake of preventing mis-information from spreading:

  • His ult didn't used to apply 10 stacks of passive, it applied 5. If you hit someone with q-w-e-r, you'd get 3 procs total, and they'd have to eat all of everything. That's also why...
  • He does do more damage to tanks now than before. Consult the graphs in this thread for more information: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/L2hFPrjW-velkozs-rework-makes-him-highly-dependent-on-landing-e his full combo is now more effective against high hp targets and armor stackers. His kit is worse against stuff he didn't proc passive on.
  • For the passive damage to break even you need something pretty paltry, like 4 AP/lvl. It's not bad.

To me the biggest problem is that magic pen used to be really good on him, now it's still really good in some situations and fucking useless in others, so you always feel like you made the wrong choice.

TheSingularity1 votes

My bad on the mis-info, thx for the clarifications bae :)

Just on dot Point 2: TBH it feels less effective against tanks, but that's likely just because liandries is no longer a good 1st item on him (nor is my old core rush combo of rylai/liand).

And 100% with you on that last one. Enemies build MR to counter my Q/W/E/R(without research) which usually comes with HP(making flat true damage less scary). But if I go Mpen to counteract this, cos I <3 my high base damages, I'm missing out on true damage that has had a massive amount of emphasis placed on its application. I'm just always in a constant cycle on contradiction. Do I bolster my reliable damage with magicPen and just let the base true damage what it can, or do I go max true damage in exchange for significantly weaker base kit and a binary, proc passive or die playstyle....

Extra: What's your opinion on suggestion one mentioned in the main body?

Goosetard1 votes

I think suggestion 1 is the best one. It's largely an about face. I also think it's what they're going to do: http://www.surrenderat20.net/p/current-pbe-balance-changes.html#balance

Instead of doing the dance of "ult-proc'd passive stacks won't trigger true damage", they're just going to reduce tick frequency and give no immediate tick. They're toning down the base damage to compensate.

It's a step in the right direction I think, but it still leaves him in a rough spot itemization-wise with regards to mpen or ap.

TheSingularity1 votes

Yeah. omg, it should scale with both magic pen and AP. Therefore magic pen is not made "you should feel like a tard for buying this" but it will allow build variety without directly buffing it. As it's just a stat type change. A stat change that allows a mass AP build, mass Mpen build or anything in between depending on what spells you want to utilise :D Only downside is, nothing in this game scales with Mpen. So I doubt they'd do it

Goosetard1 votes

Really it doesn't matter what it scales with because if it's going to do true damage, you don't want magic pen. The only reason old Vel'Koz loved it so much is that the true damage didn't scale with anything, so you were left to make the most of the rest of the damage, which always meant mpen.

The big problem here isn't that his passive scales with AP or that his ult ratio got buffed, it's that his ult is sometimes true damage and sometimes not.

TheSingularity1 votes

If it scaled with Mpen, it would synergise better with the rest of his kit

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