Riot, you have to make the MMR variance smaller when matching people!

SaltyToplaneGoat··17 votes·1,133 views

So it's obvious how matchmaking works. Everyone has this handy MMR score none ever gets to see for some weird reason, and then when people look for a game the system pairs people with value X in the same game. But, because that would take forever to find ten people with your exact MMR, so the system has some variance in it that ranges from, let's just assume X+5 and X-5, and then tries to make the total MMR on both sides even. And that's perfectly fine as a system, the problem is that the variance is JUST TOO BIG.

Imagine there's a game, and one side has a pretty "normal" MMR average, the other is a weird mix of people being either in the high end or the low end of the variance. Now, the player on the "low" end is already set up to lose, as he's thrown on a playing field that's ever so slightly above his level. "But the higher level player should totally cancel that out, then, right?" you might say, but let's be real: having one bad person on your team is so, so much more impactful for the game than having one extremly good person. I remember the days of Season Two where "just mute them all, do your thing, and solo-carry their sorry asses" was a thing, but you can't do that anymore, as Riot wants this to be more of a "team game".

This is why games also have become so stompy, and also why there's always party on botlane: more players are there, the chance that the "bad one" is there is just higher. Usually a "stomp" doesn't really start with all lanes totally crashing down. It starts with one person getting fed, getting an objective lead, and THEN everyone has an advantage and stomps the other team. But it usually starts with only one person just shutting down their opponent in a way that shouldn't be possible in a somewhat evenly matched game.

Especially in somewhat higher ELOs like Plat or above where people KNOW how to actually keep a lead and play it out without throwing, these games are just sad to look at and pretty much a reason we have a surrender at 15 now - because the game is just decided there already in some cases.

These games are usually not really fun for anyone. Not the player getting crushed early, not the rest of the team who barely had a chance to play before it was even decided... imagine playing a somewhat solid toplane and at 10 mins your botlane has a collective 8 deaths, lost two towers, and an infernal drake. Your input in this game doesn't pretty much matter anymore as it's already over. It's pretty much the same when you are on the winning side too.

Yeah you win, but not because you did anything, but because the others found some poor soul to stomp into the ground. I'd rather win through my own effort and skills, thanks.

And how to fix this? Simple - reduce the variance for matchmaking, to allow for more even games. That might mean an increase of queue times, but I'll gladly wait a few more minutes if that increases the quality of my matches. Dunno, if it is X+-5, just tune it down to X+-2 or whatever the numbers are that the system operates with.

24 Comments

Michael7025 votes

The problem isn't MMR variance. Everybody in the game pretty much has the same MMR. The problem is the MMR algorithm. It's flawed. They need to match dvision to division.

Starcraft243ver1 votes

The mmr algorithm isnt flawed it's a mathematical model based on the elo ranking system and it's widely seen as the best ranking system ever.

Division system is just shiny stuff to amuse people.

Nea1045 votes

It is flawed, probably intentionally (50% average win ratio system). Have you ever checked how many balanced games are there in everyone's match history? :'D

Starcraft243ver1 votes

It's not.

I suggest you take a look at the elo system, it's not riot that invented it : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system

It seems like you dont know what you are talking about. Because saying this :

probably intentionally (50% average win ratio system)

While talking about the elo system is quite ridiculous since it has been designed to give a 50% win ratio between two people with the same ELO. It's like you are complaining about the fact the elo system works as intented.

And yes I've checked, 99% of the games are balanced since they put players around the same elo together. Now the snowball and stomps is a totaly different part which has nothing to do with the matchmaking, but which has more to do with how the game is designed at the moment. (powercreeps and stuff).

Let's say we are both playing irelia toplane, it's early game, jungler comes, he helps me kill you while I had a wave pushing to your tower. I finish my shine while you can't afford one, I am one level ahead, The wave crushed into your tower and now it's pushing toward my tower. You had to tp in order to not lose too much farm.

Now I'm one level ahead, I have the shine powerspike, I got my TP.

I can freeze, you wont touch any farm since I would win any all in, i'm near my tower so I can't be ganked. I'm free to tp bot to help them snowball and take a drake at any moment. I'm massively ahead. If one of your other lanes isnt winning as hard as you are losing, you will probably spend the whole game miserable and you'll be like "so unbalanced". But we are equally skilled players, I just got a bit more help from my jungler at the begining, and there's no way you will be able to reverse the situation alone if i'm not doing some terrible mistakes.

That's the problem of allowing too much snowball and too few recovery paths.

Nea1041 votes

Snowballing takes time. And it's not 100% sure it happens. Not even 75%. Look at everyone's (average players) match history and count how many games are balanced/fair/close. Less than 10%, probably 3-5% (1/30-1/20).

Your last 2 games are: 9-18; 5-27. There's no snoballing effect possibile that can explain that this constantly happens. This is intentional.

Starcraft243ver1 votes

You totaly missed my point sir.

I can design a game where even tough the matchmaking would be perfect, every game would be a stomp. Imagine if in league, it was 1v1 and every time you kill your opponent, your HP and damages doubles. The first one to kill the other will litteraly STOMP the game from this point, since it's almost impossible to kill someone who kills you twice as fast as you do and dies twice slower.

Yet, if you make these 2 players play 10 games against each other in a row, they might very well end up with a 5 W 5 L record since they are evenly skilled up.

I hope with this exemple I proved you that game design alone can be responsible for stomps.

NB :

Your last 2 games are: 9-18; 5-27

Looking at the scoreboard is irrevelent, league is not a game of kills, it's a game of gold mainly, so you should look at the gold difference if you want to have a point.

Nea1041 votes

I got your point. Tho, it's not what happens in LoL in my experience. There is a big snowballing effect (still Riot's fault), that's true. But, at least in my low elo, you just notice every game a huge difference between players' skills (mechanics, game knowledge, objective priorities, grouping...) since the beginning, before a snowballing factor can take effect. It's mostly on their flawed matchmaking, that's all (imo).

About the kills, you're partially right. It's irrelevant but just when you see a 30-20 game: I mean, this still can be a totally unbalanced game, like 30-15, just the winning team took it easy in the end, giving away 5 kills or so to the losing team. But, a 5-27 game as yours is never balanced ;) [gold: 25k - 44k, obviously]

AnnieTheSupport1 votes

You completely missed out on the fact that THE REAL ELO system is based on ELO points, True ELO Points and, True Rating while OUR League ELO system is based on MMR Matchmaking. Something that doesn't exist in CHESS. In chess if you don't beat people to get to a certain CLO score you simply don't have it. In League you have a predetermined ELO score no matter if you only have 3 fingers, one hand to play with, 80% downtime on your internet connection, not speaking the same language as everyone else, getting afkers in games, getting carried in placements ETC ETC ...

You could be a one eyed, one handed, three fingered hobo that plays league on a stolen laptop on a stolen internet from the internet cafe across the street that's 80% of the time down due to connection issues, playing while being high as a kite and getting afkers in the enemy team or smurfs in your team and go 8-2 in placements and get plat 1. And then get matchmade with Diamond 2 players that are actually challenger which got placed in diamond cause of "we want our players to feel a sense of progression so we'll stick you way below your ELO" bs and then you will lose and lose and lose and eventually make it to bronze 5. That's all nice and fine BUT ..

BUT what about all those other 4 players that kept getting matched in your team that you just ruined their games and mmr and elo? WHAT exactly accounts for that? Nothing. This elo system is flawed to the bone. If my MMR is 2240 I damn well expect to be matchmade with other 2200-2300 MMR players on both sides!!! That is true elo, not this BS

Also I said it before and I will say it again. YOU CANNOT USE AN ELO SYSTEM WHICH WAS EXCLUSIVELY INVENTED FOR RATING A SINGLE PLAYER IN A GAME LIKE CHESS (1v1) IN A MULTIPLAYER TEAM GAME OF 5v5 !! IT SIMPLY DOES NOT WORK! It only works in high ELO because everyone pulls their own weight and has about the same ELO. That's why first 20 challenger players on every server barely ever change and meanwhile in all lower elos there is chaos and people go up and down by 300 LP per day easily!!

Starcraft243ver1 votes

You completely missed out on the fact that THE REAL ELO system is based on ELO points, True ELO Points and, True Rating while OUR League ELO system is based on MMR Matchmaking. Something that doesn't exist in CHESS. In chess if you don't beat people to get to a certain CLO score you simply don't have it. In League you have a predetermined ELO score no matter if you only have 3 fingers, one hand to play with, 80% downtime on your internet connection, not speaking the same language as everyone else, getting afkers in games, getting carried in placements ETC ETC ...

I dont see the point, MMR = ELO, it's just the name they gave it in lol.

You could be a one eyed, one handed, three fingered hobo that plays league on a stolen laptop on a stolen internet from the internet cafe across the street that's 80% of the time down due to connection issues, playing while being high as a kite and getting afkers in the enemy team or smurfs in your team and go 8-2 in placements and get plat 1. And then get matchmade with Diamond 2 players that are actually challenger which got placed in diamond cause of "we want our players to feel a sense of progression so we'll stick you way below your ELO" bs and then you will lose and lose and lose and eventually make it to bronze 5. That's all nice and fine BUT ..

You are mistaking elo and rank once again. You can be bronze 5 with a diamond ELO (someone did this by leaving every single promo game in lobby). And you will be matched with diamonds. So, no you wont be matched with "D2 with challenger MMR" if you have a plat MMR. You might be matched with D2 with plat MMR tough.

Nothing. This elo system is flawed to the bone. If my MMR is 2240 I damn well expect to be matchmade with other 2200-2300 MMR players on both sides!!! That is true elo, not this BS

Well it's the case, so, be happy (except for premade, in which case the system adjusts.)

Also I said it before and I will say it again. YOU CANNOT USE AN ELO SYSTEM WHICH WAS EXCLUSIVELY INVENTED FOR RATING A SINGLE PLAYER IN A GAME LIKE CHESS (1v1) IN A MULTIPLAYER TEAM GAME OF 5v5 !! IT SIMPLY DOES NOT WORK!

It does, dont worry. And you know how I know it does ? I can consistantly reach the same MMR over and over with multiple accounts. Every single friends who plays regularly on multiple accounts ends up with the same MMR. This is the best proof I can see that the system is consistant and work out well.

t only works in high ELO because everyone pulls their own weight and has about the same ELO. That's why first 20 challenger players on every server barely ever change and meanwhile in all lower elos there is chaos and people go up and down by 300 LP per day easily!!

You are mistaking ELO and LPs. LPs are shiny stuff for stupid people. LPs are worthless. WORTHLESS. Repeat after me : WORTHLESS.

You can even have the opinion of a challenger about LPs if you want :

https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/328i45/hello_reddit_im_a_challenger_soloq_player_and/

That's it. One of the keys to improve yourself is to IGNORE your LPs. And your promotion matches. And an eventual demotion if you lose the game. Do not play for LPs. Do not play for promotion matches. The only thing you should be looking for is to GAIN MMR. Because in the end, MMR is the only thing that matters in your climb. In a game, you should ONLY worry about ONE thing: To win. Because winning is the key to climbing.

Michael7023 votes

<sarcasm>Oh that must be why everybody is happy with matchmaking.</sarcasm>

Starcraft243ver1 votes

I dont see how it's a point.

People like to complain about anything yet they keep playing the game.

Matchmaking is fine, people's brain isnt.

ChargeItDownMid2 votes

[deleted]

SaltyToplaneGoat3 votes

A possible fix could make the variance depending on rank. A big variance on bronze level means pretty much nothing for the outcome of the game as the same variance on plat, where it will lead to a brutal stomp.

thefance1 votes

Upsets already reward greater MMR. So reducing variance wouldn't fix it as much as you'd believe.

Starcraft243ver2 votes

And that's perfectly fine as a system, the problem is that the variance is JUST TOO BIG.

How exactly did you calculate that since the mmr is hidden ?

BALDG1VEN BOOMER2 votes

Same thing I was thinking, I'll assume he's looking off a third party website like op.gg and looking at team MMR like "1700 vs 1900"

SaltyToplaneGoat2 votes

Simple logic deducing how a system work by looking at the input values it has and the result it provides?

I play a lot of Soraka, so keeping na eye on the entire team - in case someone needs ult - is natural for me. And occasionally the differences in skill are just too obvious, so you can say, "yepp, this player is definetly not where he is supposed to be". You can see how they position, how they ward, how they cs, what fights they pick and so on and so on.

It's not fun for the team that has such player, and not fun for the player himself who just gets walked all over by the enemy.

And then there's the simple question: "How does this player end up here when the match is supposed to be even?" And what I have written above is the obvious result.

Starcraft243ver2 votes

And then there's the simple question: "How does this player end up here when the match is supposed to be even?" And what I have written above is the obvious result.

  1. He was boosted.
  2. This guy isnt playing on his account
  3. This guy is playing for the first time in months
  4. He's high/drunk
  5. He's tired, ill
  6. He's trying a new champion whereas he's used to play his main
  7. His main is banned
  8. He's autofill.
  9. He simply doesnt want to try
  10. He's tilted
  11. He's facing someone way better than him
  12. He's facing a hard counter

Mental counts a lot in LoL and mecanics as well. Ask me to Adc : i'm gold. Ask me to play veigar : i'm high plat/diam Ask me to play Azir : i'm silver Ask me to play while tired : I instantly lose a tier Ask me to play while perfectly rested : I'm "godlike"

Good luck creating a system that can accounts for this many random parameters.

The difference between me rested and playing on my main champ vs playing a champion I dont know well on a bad day is not a variation of 5 MMR, it's a whole 300-500.

Sorry, this can't be solved ;)

Poske2 votes

{quoted}

  1. He was boosted.

We could use unskilled player report back. As well as this guy didnt deserve to lose (No value if used on premades)

  1. This guy isnt playing on his account

We need ban wave for those

  1. This guy is playing for the first time in months

Playing league well is like riding a bike... every time i took a break as soon as I CAME back I was a god. + there is a decay thingy.. which should also count elo in that case

  1. He's high/drunk

Alright this can happen ocassionaly. Wont he just play normals again?

  1. He's tired, ill

Also happens. However wont he just play normals then?

  1. He's trying a new champion whereas he's used to play his main

Well unless that new champion is yasuo / similar it shouldnt be bad he saw the high leo players play that champ but y happens

  1. His main is banned

There should be a reward for people who want to fill rather then being OTPS as they are more skilled

  1. He's autofill.

Why are my teams always full of autofills rather then enemies. Can be adjusted

  1. He simply doesnt want to try Report him for inting
  1. He's tilted Being tilted is fine. Dont be negative anywhere to a tilted person
  1. He's facing someone way better than him Ehm? This shouldnt happen if its same mmr
  1. He's facing a hard counter

Y fine we can understand that

Mental counts a lot in LoL and mecanics as well. Ask me to Adc : i'm gold. Ask me to play veigar : i'm high plat/diam Ask me to play Azir : i'm silver Ask me to play while tired : I instantly lose a tier Ask me to play while perfectly rested : I'm "godlike"

Good luck creating a system that can accounts for this many random parameters.

The difference between me rested and playing on my main champ vs playing a champion I dont know well on a bad day is not a variation of 5 MMR, it's a whole 300-500.

Sorry, this can't be solved ;)

What I cannot understand why the next day after a winstreak I get flash ignite (They had twitch jungle) full ap toplane malphite

I havent seen malphite with ignite ever and i have 20k games. HE WENT FKING AP, HE BUILT ROD OF AGES IN 30TH MINUTE while having ping spikes

I also had a dude who managed to lose 20 games in a row.........

So yeah after a winstreak system makes sure to give you ebayers

I think there might be a lil bit leeway with dodging should test it but I hate waiting

Starcraft243ver1 votes
  1. He's high/drunk

Alright this can happen ocassionaly. Wont he just play normals again?

  1. He's tired, ill

Also happens. However wont he just play normals then?

Well personnally I dont play on my main while high/drunk/tired. But i've got smurfs for these situations.

The 11), I meant he was maybe playing against a smurf.

What I cannot understand why the next day after a winstreak I get flash ignite (They had twitch jungle) full ap toplane malphite

I havent seen malphite with ignite ever and i have 20k games. HE WENT FKING AP, HE BUILT ROD OF AGES IN 30TH MINUTE while having ping spikes

I also had a dude who managed to lose 20 games in a row.........

So yeah after a winstreak system makes sure to give you ebayers

The very reason you had this winstreak is you didnt have these players in your team. So of course you will HAVE these kind of players AFTER a winstreak. It's not the system gives them to you because of your winstreak. The system give them to you and it ends your winstreak as an effect.

Nea1042 votes

It's just a forced 50% win ratio system that gets messed up when going premade/3-4-5 friend team. :D They haven't fixed their stuff since forever, they never will.

Poske1 votes

Only way to fix it is by making soloq A GODAMN soloq not solo duo

Nea1041 votes

Yes, probably they should split solo q from the other modes, like flex.

AnnieTheSupport2 votes

I don't care about queue times, make this happen. Match MMR the right damn way and everyone will stop complaining about snowballing, bad matchmaking, stop flaming and start enjoying the game. You dig your own grave when you place people in low elo after placements and justify that by "we want to give players a sense of progression" Well you only get that feeling if you keep winning but you won't keep winning unless you stick 100% true to the meta and most OP picks which makes the game a total boredom fest.

And placing people in lower elo than they deserve then pairs/matches them with other people who got there by playing a lot of games which effectively means your chances of seeing or feeling that progression drop to an all time low. If you were Gold last season and win 7 out of 10 matches you belong in gold again. As far as I'm concerned if you just win 5 out of 10 matches you should still be in gold. Meanwhile I get placed in Silver 2 with a bunch of other people ranging from non ranked to silver 5 (0LP) to gold 1 which creates the biggest sheepstorm to ever hit the game. There will always be people in that elo that don't belong in that elo and all because of your bad matchmaking system.

This matchmaking system we currently have to endure only works in very high elo. It does nothing below diamon 3. Why? Well what do you expect that guy who's Silver 5 (0LP) with bronze 2 MMR to accomplish when paired with the gold 1 player versus 3 gold 1-2 and 2 silver 1's? The match is a complete loss unless someone disconnects or gets flamed in champ select and starts trolling once the game starts.

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