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All of boards complaining about Ranked matchmaking, I want a red response (open discussion with reds)

awdaf··45 votes·3,084 views

Why is it that Riot impedes a players climb because they have been winning and climbing the ladder?

Why is it that you match a losing streak Plat 5 and a Gold 4 with higher than average MMR to "Balance" a game out?

Why is it that when I go on long win streaks, I tend to have games harder by not having harder competition, but worse teammates to work with, as if you are working AGAINST me?

Why is it that in my promos, the teams will be equal, Plat 3s-Plat 1s Vs. Plat 3s-Diamond 5s, but yet, when I get promoted I get a Gold 2/3 on my team and some Plat 4s to carry against a team of Plat 3s and 2s?

Why have the league system if you are going to just face people of your own skill anyway? How will a person climb from Gold 3 to Plat 5 if they are constantly matched with people that are Plat 4/5/G1?

Why not just have the league system where every Division plays against there own? For example, Bronze Vs Bronze, Silver Vs Silver, Gold Vs Gold ect.... and do away with the MMR system?

What is the actual point of Ranked integrity if you continuously work against the player to normalize that players W/L to 50%? Why not just let them climb?

I'm waiting Riot, I'd like these questions answered, and I'm sure other people do as well.

44 Comments

Maximum Morde7 votes

Because rank is exactly zero part of matchmaking. It's all done by mmr. Rank is just the shiny cover they put on top of it so you can try to stroke ur epeen

Skorch1 votes

Actually this is right, ITS 100% so that you can stroke it ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°). Its just typically your MMR is pretty well indicator of your rank for a large Large LARGE majority of players.

III BAKURYU III 6 votes

" Why is it that when I go on long win streaks, I tend to have games harder by not having harder competition, but worse teammates to work with, as if you are working AGAINST me?"

  • They want to see if you can carry 1v9 and become a Legend it's in the title ( League of Legends), but I do agree with this however as it's annoying to have a 5-10 game winning streak/promo games and have some of the worst players on your team.

" What is the actual point of Ranked integrity if you continuously work against the player to normalize that players W/L to 50%? Why not just let them climb? "

  • Riot is most likely afraid if the game is actually fair/easier people wouldn't play the game, most people play all the way up until they get Gold the division that isn't called "garbage" but is somewhat respected and quit so they don't lose that rank. As well as Riot doesn't want to make the game fair, they want players to win just enough to keep them interested in the game but once they feel like certain players are getting a little too big for their shorts they yank the rope so those players fall back down but hopefully not enough that stops them from playing. Give people a taste just long enough that hopefully keeps them interested to keep playing.
MysterQ4 votes

I know I personally want to stop at Gold. But that is because I want to have FUN is normals. The ranked system (Flex) is not fun when games are uneven. If it was more "fair" to climb I imagine some people might want to go past Gold. Even if they drop, they have a better chance to get back up.

III BAKURYU III 4 votes

Oh believe me League of Legends won't ever be "fair" it's just not the way it goes. Look at how popular the game is and imagine who you could be teamed up or against in games, you could be teamed up with a 5 year old because everyone wants to play. The Ranked won't ever make sense and if anything will most likely just get worse like the NHL playoff berths it will probably just get worse as time goes on.

The things I'm annoyed at

  1. Let us start back where we finished the year before. I don't like how end season 6 Silver 2 and need to start season 7 in Bronze 4/5. The going backwards 5-6 steps each year makes 0 sense to me.

  2. Needing to win 7-8 games in a row to get 100LP and still need to win 2/3 3/5 to move up to just start back at 0 LP but when you lose games in the promos you lose LP but not gain LP in promos makes 0 sense.

Pretty much goes like this Play Ranked your 10 placement games see where you get placed - ex Silver 4 play 50-60 games and if you can't get out of Silver you might as well just stop playing because at that point your MMR is tarnished because you've already played 50+ games and can't get out of the tier they assigned you so if anything Riot will make it even harder for you to get out from then on.

xevi2 votes

Flex is totally different from solo/duo and the problems with flex are very much different than in solo/duo. In flex, you can queue with your silver friends even if your diamond since your flex rank is the same as your friends which completely screws the MMR balancing of the game. I've had games in flex where the MMR differential is 400 because of this which makes flex fairly uneven.

The problems with solo/duo are different because you can't queue a diamond player with bronze player (unless smurfing/duo boosting). So what are the problems with solo/duo? From the perspective of the boards, it is Rito working against them by matching them with trolls, feeders, etc on their team causing a sudden streak of losses after a couple of wins. Additionally, as OP brings up, "Why is it that in my promos, the teams will be equal, Plat 3s-Plat 1s Vs. Plat 3s-Diamond 5s, but yet, when I get promoted I get a Gold 2/3 on my team and some Plat 4s to carry against a team of Plat 3s and 2s?"

The answer is simple. MMR Matchmaking. For the same reason you will get "uneven" teams at rank face value (e.g. a gold with plat mmr vs a diamond with plat mmr due to the gold going on a win streak and diamond on a loss streak) you will be able to climb as the gold in this scenario "Why have the league system if you are going to just face people of your own skill anyway? How will a person climb from Gold 3 to Plat 5 if they are constantly matched with people that are Plat 4/5/G1?"

Let me elaborate. If the Gold 3 is going against G1s-P4s then it is probably due to the Golds MMR being equal to that of the G1s-P4s. When your MMR is higher than your current rank mmr you gain more LP than you lose. So if you're up against equally skilled players (e.g. your level MMR players) you will continue to climb EVEN IF WIN AS MANY GAMES YOU LOSE. When you are winning as much as you lose then you are at that level of skill. Losses are expected after large win streaks you will start to be matched against equally skilled playersso you will start to win 50% of the time.

Let's go back to the Gold 3 example. The Gold has been winning a number of games because he has been matched against lower skilled players and therefore his MMR has increased to a Plat level. He will start facing against Plats equal to his and although he wins 4 games and loses 4 games he still gains a net +40 LP since he gets +25 LP on a win and -15 LP on a loss. Yet he only gains 40 LP when he needs more than 200 LP just to get to G1. Why is Rito making this harder for him???? And what about his promos? If he wins as much as he loses than it's likely that he will win a game to get into his promos, win another, than lose the next two losing his promos!!!

Here's the thing. Rito has added the MMR system to make it easier to climb. If you're MMR is high enough, you will skip divisions. In the case of the Gold 3 I do think it's possible but I think the alternative that he will be placed against Gold 2s and 3s lower than his skill level yet equal to rank is much more likely. I say this from personal experience. When I recently climbed from Gold 3 to Plat 5, only occasionally did I get a game a against equal MMR players. For the most part, I was facing against the same rank players making it much easier to climb. I only started frequently facing against Plat 4s when I was G1, at that point where the ranked discrepancy is not that high (compared to Gold 3 of course).

Rito has overall made the ranked system a much better place to climb due to MMR. It's easier since you gain more LP than you lose if your hidden mmr is higher than your rank mmr, get a free win on your second promos, can skip divisions., etc. It's also much easier to spot where your "peak" is. Example if you went on a long win streak and climbed from Silver 2 to Plat 4 but suddenly lose a few than you can assume that you're probably around the Plat 5 level.

It also should be noted that if you get trolls, feeders, etc on your team after a win streak it's just UNLUCKY and no more. You never hear about the people who got a free promos due to an afk twice on the enemy team. My Plat 5 promos was so free because of this. I played two games in which the enemy had a troll and got easy wins. I've also had games where the opposite has happens and I get the troll. At the end of the day, it's just unlucky and knowing whether or not a player will troll in a ranked game is out of control of the match making system.

Any questions?

TL;DR

MMR system helps with climbing. You can climb with a 50% winrate with the MMR system since you gain more Lp than you lose with high mmr. Just unlucky with trolls on your team.

Verdade2 votes

This is true, however when your MMR vastly exceeds your rank, you get buttfuked by promos.

How does this work?

Im S5. I play 30 games and get into S2 with 75% winrate. Now i have high gold/low plat MMR. All is fine, i gain 30 LP/win, -8lp/lose. However, promos require you to WIN 2/3 games, so your MMR doesn't work here and you have to win against enemies MUCH higher than your actual division. This slows me down considerably, as i would literally stomp S2 players, however stomping plats is MUCH harder. This means i have to play alot more games, which is just waste of time thanks to broken system.

All would be fixed if promos gave me LP towards my next division, so if i got 2/0 in promos i would start with ~60 LP instead of 0...

xevi1 votes

{quoted} And what about his promos? If he wins as much as he loses than it's likely that he will win a game to get into his promos, win another, than lose the next two losing his promos!!!

Rito has overall made the ranked system a much better place to climb due to MMR. It's easier since you gain more LP than you lose if your hidden mmr is higher than your rank mmr, get a free win on your second promos, can skip divisions., etc. It's also much easier to spot where your "peak" is. Example if you went on a long win streak and climbed from Silver 2 to Plat 4 but suddenly lose a few than you can assume that you're probably around the Plat 5 level.

I don't think it screws you that hard tbh. I've skipped S5 to S3 and went from S3 to S1 which saves me an extra 12 wins (not games but wins) which is pretty huge imo

Verdade1 votes

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/xuT9wjBN-problem-with-climbing?comment=00000000000000000000

xevi1 votes

I'm going to assume you meant to link me to your post and not that comment. Basically what you want is to be matched against silvers because your rank is silver rather than mmr correct?

Here's the thing. Ranked matchmaking would be much much slower than mmr matchmaking.

+20 LP on a win and -20 LP on a loss. Let's say out of 10 games you lose 1. 90% Winrate, not that bad. For every 10 games you gain +80 LP. So it takes about 11 games to get into a series. Now with mmr matchmaking you win 50% of your games since you're against equal teams with +30 on a win and -8 on a loss. Over the course of 10 gains your net LP gain is (150-40) 110. Which gets you into a series.

But the only problem here is promos and so with ranked mm you win your promos and go to s3 to s2. Now let's say you lose your promos with mmr mmj and go down to 84 LP. You win a game, getting back into promos, get a free win, lose a game, then win a game. To get through these promos you got through: 2 losses, 1 win to get back in, 1 loss, and 1 win for a total of 5 games to play vs 2 but you skip a division and go from s3 to s1.

For ranked mm to get you from s3 to s1 it would take you 11 + 2 + 11 + 2 for a total of 26 games with only 2 losses. while it only takes 10 + 5 for a total of 15 games with 8 losses (and 8 wins including the free win)

Now you might say what about both! Why can't I get +30 LP on a win and get matched against silvers and skip a division so I only have to play 6 maybe 7 games to get from s3 to s1!!

To an extent they already do. I've stated before that even with my higher mmr I was still frequently matched against players of the same rank (G3 level) getting me more wins than losses yet still getting around +25 LP per win and -15 LP per loss. Although I didn't skip divisions is was fairly easy to climb.

Verdade1 votes

Of course its possible to climb, but it's far slower than it should be.

Are you a good player and you got placed into cesspit? Too bad, it will take 200 games to climb out of it...

xevi1 votes

{quoted}

Here's the thing. Ranked matchmaking would be much much slower than mmr matchmaking.

For ranked mm to get you from s3 to s1 it would take you 11 + 2 + 11 + 2 for a total of 26 games with only 2 losses. while it only takes 10 + 5 for a total of 15 games with 8 losses (and 8 wins including the free win)

I'm not entirely sure if you even read it. What's above pretty much summarizes the difference between ranked mm (what you want basically) and mmr mm (what we have right now).

And, honestly, if it takes you more than 50 games to get out of a cesspit than maybe you weren't such a good player in the first place ;P

Verdade2 votes

http://i.imgur.com/d4edfCA.png http://i.imgur.com/fG6qEqb.png http://i.imgur.com/x6T6MLo.png

Do you see what is my problem now?

Surr20plz4 votes

[{quoted}](name=III BAKURYU III ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4VKEOtdy,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-03-20T16:18:29.514+0000)

" Why is it that when I go on long win streaks, I tend to have games harder by not having harder competition, but worse teammates to work with, as if you are working AGAINST me?"

  • They want to see if you can carry 1v9 and become a Legend it's in the title ( League of Legends)

Do not downvote this man.

The truth is hard to swallow.

III BAKURYU III 1 votes

;]

Leonerdo5 votes

I agree with the title, but only cause I want a Red to come and shut everyone up about the 50% W/L "forcing", which never existed and still doesn't. Matchmaking only considers your MMR and role preference (and your premade size for those in a premade).

Psybicilin1 votes

{quoted}

I agree with the title, but only cause I want a Red to come and shut everyone up about the 50% W/L "forcing", which never existed and still doesn't. Matchmaking only considers your MMR and role preference (and your premade size for those in a premade).

Seriously, there's more salt in the boards right now than in the Pacific Ocean. It's like people expect to win every single game and go on a huge win streak, when often times this is just extremely lucky, especially in a team game.

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

A back of the envelope calculation from wolfram alpha for salt content of the pacific ocean yields

23,100,000,000,000,000 kg of salt total.

At 100 mill players daily that's

23,100,000,000 kg of salt per person.

sounds about right.

GayFluffyUnicorn2 votes

Nope it takes progression into account as well. And it is not just the oh so stupid boards talking about this. Do you know kevinTV? Ex german pro player currently hovering over master/challenger, a bit washed up. He just made a video about this one or two weeks ago. Look it up on youtube if you understand german (maybe subtitles are possible i'm not that much into youtube) and he basically said this: Blabla winstreak, suddenly huge losing streak, win/lose/win/lose/win/lose, win/win/win/lose/lose. The same exact shit we are discussing here since forever but people like you telling us it's not true or even worse coming up with the "hurr durr you are just a bronze n00b you are bad at the game blabla" when even a fucking ex pro player still master/challenger says the same exact thing happens to him since he started the game. The same shit after a huge winstreak having absolutely impossible to carry teams where everyone goes 0/10 for whatever reason, once again mind you in master/challenger tier.

Leonerdo1 votes

I never said anything about what rank people are. I don't care if you're Bronze, and I don't care if he's Challenger. Either way you can jump to the wrong conclusions about matchmaking. Win streaks and loss streaks are a product of either random variance, or tilt (and flow, the opposite of tilt), or playing for long streaks on certain champions that you either wreck or suck on.

And you're right, it sort-of takes progression into account. It takes into account a confidence rating, based on how many games you've played. More games = more confidence that your MMR is accurate = less MMR gains/losses = the system will take longer to catch up to you if you suddenly get better or worse. So if you want to blame loss streaks on anything, you should blame it on having a low confidence rating (which you could blame Riot for) and playing really well for a while followed by playing worse for a while (perhaps based on what champion you pick for that streak?).

Synnx74 votes

To have you grind the fuck out of this game and spend RP. Thats their strategy

Vreivai3 votes

Hey, if something makes it so I don't have to beat Platinum players to climb out of Bronze, I'm all for it.

TyroneWatermelon3 votes

1-2 people post a thread about this topic and then some moron generalized all the boards

FooDang2 votes

I Just wish I'd get a Bronze player every now and then on my team. From what I've read on the boards all the plat/diamond skilled level players are stuck there.

Exsanguinary2 votes

The simple answer to all your questions is the MMR system is completely broken and designed to keep a player at a certain level and does in not way promote a competitive environment.

Win / Loss ratio is the only way to truly test a person's skill at a team based game.

100-0 This person is clearly a massive teamplayer with above average mechanics and strategies.

GayFluffyUnicorn1 votes

No, rito implemented champ mastery and could further work on this to take your individual skill into account. Overwatch does this as well. With 3-4 gold medals i easily get 40 SR points or only 10-20 with not a single medal. Even the hero picks get taken into account depending on their current winrate.

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

[deleted]

Slythion3 votes

then start basing rank off mmr instead of slapping the shiny coverup known as elo. If you play at a plat level but can't climb out of silver because...well...those "silver" games are actually full of plat players, what's the point?

Elos lose their meaning when skill levels are interchangeable between them

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

[deleted]

Slythion1 votes

I'm not talking about matchmaking ya dunce, I'm talking about having your actual elo based on your mmr

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

[deleted]

Slythion1 votes

your elo is influenced off your skill, which also influences your mmr. Elo and mmr in itself are two different things though,

For instance, a silver player such as myself has a gold-low plat mmr. Elo is just a coverup while mmr is the real matchmaking, which doesnt make sense because the purpose of ranked is to reach your skill, not to constantly play against your skill.

Meaning, silver games should be of silver skill, while mine are of gold/plat level difficulty

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

[deleted]

AdeBug1 votes

actually, you can, as some people will stop at plat 5, <rank> 5 a few weeks before the end of the season just for the border

idontgiveabother1 votes

I was playing with a plat 1 in one of my games. I think this WAS when I was in gold 2 or 1. Key word was. Love this match making system sometimes :D

GayFluffyUnicorn1 votes

Believe me it is not fun either to get matched like this for high plats. The skill difference is huge between low pla (basically gold) and high plat. I lost three games in a row simply by giving me a gold 3 jungler three times against plat 1 who completely outjungled him and trashed our team solo.

idontgiveabother1 votes

Really? I didn't notice a difference. The plat 1 we had was a mid laner on our team and everyone one of us was carrying him up until the end.

charge attack1 votes

It's because in NA less people play ranked (statistically about half as much as EUW). And it's spread even more thin cuz of flex

GayFluffyUnicorn1 votes

That in fact is a problem. It's even so bad quas who was rank 1 challenger at that time got into a game with plat 5/1, dia 5/1 against plat 1/2, dia 2/2/3

SpyKayle1 votes

I think the reason for this may be because it took 30 min or something like that for challengers to find ranked matches. Not completely sure on this one though.

Linna Excel1 votes

Well, the more games you play, it's more likely that you'll be paired with teammates on a losing streak. Frankly you should blame them for playing while tilted more than you should blame the devs.

YoungSirJ0ey1 votes

It's confirmation bias. I went through your OP.GG, and during your last 2 losing streaks containing 9 total games, only 3 games were slightly unfair, all of which you did terribly in. By the way, stop losing games in which you are 2-3/0 at 10 minutes, or at least stop blaming it on your team when you do.

Blahhhhhh1 votes

S1, playing vs a full team of gold, and my team 4 S1 and 1 unranked. lost game, lost more LP than i gain if i win lol

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