Riot: "Champions should pay for their mobility"

IsIsGankedParis··62 votes·4,375 views

Kalista pays for her mobility by negating melees without 3+ gapclosers.

Rek'Sai pays for her mobility by being able to make tunnel networks all over the map.

Vayne pays for her mobility by going invisible.

Azir pays for his mobility by having a wall and insane damage.

Lee Sin pays for his mobility by having 2 dashes, an aoe knockup with high ratios, an aoe slow, and lifesteal and spellvamp.

The list goes on, all these champs I mentioned have insane damage while having high mobility.

Riot lies to us all, champions don't pay for mobility unless they're not LC$ money makers.

62 Comments

Alljoy48 votes

Meanwhile, they nerf Sona's movement speed on the PBE.

Digivolve12 votes

yea but they buffed her cup size, have you ever tried running with giant Sweater stretchers before?

cshakes5 votes

So I should just buy a Sports Bra (female only) and receive +20 movement speed?

Chaotic Reks1 votes

sona floats...

Ulquiorra9957 votes

{quoted}

Meanwhile, they nerf Sona's movement speed on the PBE.

Well, she has to pay for her mobility. I mean, 17% ms for 3 seconds, AND scaling with AP?

Meanwhile, Lee with his 2 movement abilities and another 2 disengages sits at 350 ms, but he does LC$BIGPLAYS so it's ok.

Ch0c0lateJesus24 votes

Did they actually say that? Its kind of comical thinking of some of the changes they made to Lucian in the past.

They originally "nerfed" him by totally removing the mana cost to his dash to make sure he didn't have to pay for his mobility. There was a period where his dash was free, on a low cd, and also removed all slowing effects when he used it.

Riot is so full of shit.

MidEvilKnight3k3 votes

They were trying to make him pay for his mobility with short range, not mana costs.

Space Bum1 votes

This reminded me of the Vayne release. KEEP ROLLIN ROLLIN ROLLIN!

JevelFaithful1 votes

{quoted}

Did they actually say that? Its kind of comical thinking of some of the changes they made to Lucian in the past.

They originally "nerfed" him by totally removing the mana cost to his dash to make sure he didn't have to pay for his mobility. There was a period where his dash was free, on a low cd, and also removed all slowing effects when he used it.

Riot is so full of shit.

To be fair, they reworked Lucian so that he'd pay for his mobility in term of Range. He's mobile, but is shortranged. Kinda like vayne actually. Accept Lucian has more range where Vayne has tank shredding power.

JsKingBoo17 votes

Kalista Capped DPS due to her jump on her passive. Also no "real" ultimate

RekSai No "real" ultimate and struggles in 1v1s post-6 (if not fed). Has a lot of map pressure, however.

Vayne High skill cap/floor, needs perfect kiting to be effective. Also squishy

Azir Squishy, high skill cap. Using his mobility spell either mispositions his damage dealing soldiers OR makes him vulnerable to a gank or ambush

LeeSin Needs to snowball to build damage and get away with it, or needs insane mechanics to pull off full squish. But yeah, this guy kinda sucks to deal with.

Cenobite Azaziel8 votes

{quoted}

Kalista Capped DPS due to her jump on her passive. Also no "real" ultimate

RekSai No "real" ultimate and struggles in 1v1s post-6 (if not fed). Has a lot of map pressure, however.

Vayne High skill cap/floor, needs perfect kiting to be effective. Also squishy

Azir Squishy, high skill cap. Using his mobility spell either mispositions his damage dealing soldiers OR makes him vulnerable to a gank or ambush

LeeSin Needs to snowball to build damage and get away with it, or needs insane mechanics to pull off full squish. But yeah, this guy kinda sucks to deal with.

Kalista: Her DPS ins't capped. Tons of DPS? The tons of jumping.

Reksai : No real ultimate - Sure. 6 skills and a ass whooping 60% ASPD buff.

Vayne: I guess that the best argument is her range, but is complicated since she has mobility in her Q (plus invisibility) and in her passive. You don't have a mobility skill to get away or to dodge cndem? Tough luck.

Azir: Positioning isn't a weakness in higher elos. Knowing that you are a front liner or a back liner comes with every champions in this game.

Lee sin: Tiamat and go full tank. Deals tons of damage, tons of mobility, can assassinate if his Q reach the back line or NEAR the ADC/APC (insec), that can imobbilize the whole enemy team. No. Lee sin is one of the worst offenders.

I'm a bit surprised no one tossed in Yasuo

Hasztalan26 votes

{quoted}

Kalista Capped DPS due to her jump on her passive. Also no "real" ultimate

RekSai No "real" ultimate and struggles in 1v1s post-6 (if not fed). Has a lot of map pressure, however.

Vayne High skill cap/floor, needs perfect kiting to be effective. Also squishy

Azir Squishy, high skill cap. Using his mobility spell either mispositions his damage dealing soldiers OR makes him vulnerable to a gank or ambush

LeeSin Needs to snowball to build damage and get away with it, or needs insane mechanics to pull off full squish. But yeah, this guy kinda sucks to deal with.

This my friend is bs.

Kalista can delete any melee champion who doesn'T have 3 gapclosers or aren't nidalee in cougar form

RekSai has a real ultimate, which gives him ENORMOUS attack speed AND srs map pressure and fast relocating with global threat. Just becuz it doesn't deal damage it is a very real ult what i'd swap for many other ultimates in this game on quite a few champs. But ye i know if it doesn't deal damage it's not real ultimate for bronzies so w/e.

Also if you can'T 1v1 even w/o being ahead with reksai u my friend suck, his AA reset bonus AD Q and E makes short work on ANYONE. She has all the damages what other champs can only dream of.

Vayne didnt know that shift+right lciking in 1 direction is high skillcap. Vayne is easy as f0k.

Azir well actuallly kind of agree on this one, but the thing is Azir (just like many of the recent champions) has sooooo much in his kit that he just doesn't need this dash.

LeeSin hope u are not trying to defend this guy, cuz Lee Djinn is really the only guy whom about no one can argue. He is bs for 4 straight years now.

My biggest concern on top of mobility that if u watch it carefully the champs who has the highest mobility for some unkown reason also has lot of base stat advantage, like they also possess the highest base movespeeds (lee 350 bs for example)...

Father Cthulhu3 votes

Kalista can delete any melee champion who doesn'T have 3 gapclosers or aren't nidalee in cougar form

She's good at kiting and chasing. You should have known and NOT CHASED HER because this is her strong suit. Don't be dumb.

Vayne didnt know that shift+right lciking in 1 direction is high skillcap. Vayne is easy as f0k.

Not really, she's probably the hardest right up there with draven for adc's. Her positioning is difficult, and her early game is pushed out by every other adc in the game.

Azir well actuallly kind of agree on this one, but the thing is Azir (just like many of the recent champions) has sooooo much in his kit that he just doesn't need this dash.

He doesn't even have that much, just a minion mancer with a summon, a reposition, and a wall.

Hasztalan23 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Galifrey,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4RBReIov,comment-id=000600010000,timestamp=2015-01-06T13:45:21.857+0000)

She's good at kiting and chasing. You should have known and NOT CHASED HER because this is her strong suit. Don't be dumb.

Not really, she's probably the hardest right up there with draven for adc's. Her positioning is difficult, and her early game is pushed out by every other adc in the game.

He doesn't even have that much, just a minion mancer with a summon, a reposition, and a wall.

You really are that stupid aren'T you. Gameplay and balance allways goes on GENERAL theoretical and practical execution. I didn't say there was x y game where i chased a Kalista. It is simply a statemtn and FACT that you cannot catch Kalista with a melee hero.

And vayne skillful positioning? Dude you don't evne know the words what you are throwing around. Vayne's positioning is the easiest, as her ult MS and tumble enables you to be in the shittiest position and still make it out alive (let alone scoring a penta in every game with her). Hardest adc after Draven? Pls, tell me how easy it is to play Varus or Ashe competitively in this mega mobi creep enviroment.

Delioth1 votes

It's of note that Vayne's MS on her passive and ult only apply while you're walking towards enemy champions. That doesn't help you kite.

Hasztalan22 votes

{quoted}

It's of note that Vayne's MS on her passive and ult only apply while you're walking towards enemy champions. That doesn't help you kite.

It's helps since kiting is not restricted to go away from the enemies. How many vayne's do see dodging abilities while going closer to u just to get the condem+3 hit? A lot.

JevelFaithful1 votes

{quoted}

It's helps since kiting is not restricted to go away from the enemies. How many vayne's do see dodging abilities while going closer to u just to get the condem+3 hit? A lot.

So she's playing offensive. LIKE SHE SHOULD! Guess what? Her passive is made for this. If she's kiting, she's by definition moving away from an enemy. If she has her passive it's becasue there's Kha'Zix in the other direction and she's walking right into his pincers.

You're confusing kiting (staying our of reach of the enemy, thus moving away form them) and charging while dodging attacks.

Hasztalan21 votes

{quoted}

Bs you wrote

No mate it's you who is confusing. Kiting is moving AND attacking , using the AA cooldowns to move inbetween the shots. That is kiting by definition.

And that can be made both offensively and defensively.

So reading this again im trying to argue with some1 who doesn't even know what the basicm oba terms are, simply saw them being mentioned at streams or something and throwing them around like he knows what he talks.

JevelFaithful2 votes

{quoted}

No mate it's you who is confusing. Kiting is moving AND attacking , using the AA cooldowns to move inbetween the shots. That is kiting by definition.

And that can be made both offensively and defensively.

So reading this again im trying to argue with some1 who doesn't even know what the basicm oba terms are, simply saw them being mentioned at streams or something and throwing them around like he knows what he talks.

  1. At least I have the decency not to insult you.

  2. it's not a moba term it's a global video game term. Mostly used in RPG, strategy, and moba. Hec, I've even seen used in smash bros discussion. That's a fighting game for god's sake.

  3. What you describe is closer to orb orbwalking. Which is used either to kite or to chase or approach (in the case or ranged champions). I've googled a bit, every definition I've found imply a defensive maneuver. If you look at every other game, kiting is always about keeping yourself alive while killing enemies at range. That's defensive. It doesn't mean you're retreating, but you're not charging at your enemy.

  4. Must refrain from echoing your own comment at you since it applies.

Hasztalan21 votes

{quoted}

once again you just ... sigh cba to explain it. Sherlock didn't you think that orbwalking doesn't even exist in Lol as tehre is no orb effect here?

JevelFaithful2 votes

{quoted}

Why didn't you say anything? Did I win?

Maybe you need help with learning that orbwalk is a term that's also used in League?

What does cba means anyway?

Hasztalan21 votes

{quoted}

Why didn't you say anything? Did I win?

Maybe you need help with learning that orbwalk is a term that's also used in League?

What does cba means anyway?

CBA means cant be arsed = dont care.

ANd no this is NOT orb walking. The writer of this article has not even the fcuking slightest clue what orb walking is.

EDIT: after reading through this artice i srsly doubt this guy ever played vs anything but Co-opvsAi.

JevelFaithful1 votes

{quoted}

CBA means cant be arsed = dont care.

ANd no this is NOT orb walking. The writer of this article has not even the fcuking slightest clue what orb walking is.

EDIT: after reading through this artice i srsly doubt this guy ever played vs anything but Co-opvsAi.

I think you're thinking about orbwalking as it's used in dota.

Kowe The Ewok1 votes

I have never seen an Rek Sai struggle in a 1v1. He has the same job as Hecarim (mobile threat with good initiation), yet exceels in any aspect. 20 more movementspeed. Higher heals. Much better DPS. CC uneffected by tenacity. And he flatout wins every 1 on 1 against Hecarim - even post 6.

Hell, Rek Sai can even beat Poppy lategame! (She can't stun him since she'll get knocked up mid animation. He has too many single procs for her passive to trigger. He is tanky and can reach incredible Lifesteal while being bulky)

Narasimha1 votes

You've never seen a Rek'sai face a Darius? Or an Irelia? or a Fiora? Or a Gangplank? Or a Garen? Or a Jayce? Or a Jax? Well I could go a bit on but you get the picture.

Also, your Poppy reference is really weird. She can't beat Poppy because the support can't beat Poppy, and all Poppy has to do is ult the support, then go to town.

Wicked Annie1 votes

Pls just look at Azir's range. And skill cap isn't really a weakness :/

SmokingPuffin14 votes

Riot lies to us all, champions don't pay for mobility unless they're not LC$ money makers.

The quote you are running with was from a post where Riot explicitly agreed that many champions don't pay enough for the mobility effect.

IsIsGankedParis6 votes

Yes it is yet they are releasing NEW champions to have insane damage with high mobility.

They don't follow the principles.

SmokingPuffin9 votes

[{quoted}](name=Varin Omega,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4RBReIov,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-01-06T00:40:13.558+0000)

Yes it is yet they are releasing NEW champions to have insane damage with high mobility.

They don't follow the principles.

Not really convinced this is the case. I think the insufficient payment for mobility thing is mostly about older designs: LeeSin Nidalee Zed Riven Leblanc are all big offenders and they're all at least 2 years old.

Turning to the champions released last year: Rek'Sai is just doing the usual thing where a champion is overtuned on release. Conspiracy theories ensue, champion is nerfed, next champion is released, repeat. Kalista pays a fair price for her hopstep thingy. Maybe even pays too much. Azir feels pretty fair, although he's a royal pain to lane against. Braum is a support. Gnar is amazing, but it's not really about his damage output. Vel'Koz isn't mobile.

JJI7441 votes

[{quoted}](name=Varin Omega,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4RBReIov,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-01-06T00:40:13.558+0000)

Yes it is yet they are releasing NEW champions to have insane damage with high mobility.

They don't follow the principles.

Actually, Kalista pays for her mobility by being terrible. OK, she actually pays for having the only AA your opponents can cancel after your AA animation goes off, having her damage steroid be quite difficult to use effectively, and having an ult that A) does zero damage and B) requires a partner to use effectively.

Rek'sai pays for her general mobility by having low on-demand mobility and limited damaging abilities.

Azir: Even at max rank+CDR, Azir has a 9s CD on his dash, which can be body-blocked.

Even Yasuo has the only dash which gets stopped cold by CC and (now) pays for it with a sub-par early-game.

Lucian was SUPPOSED to pay for mobility with relatively low damage, it jsut took Riot about 6 changed before they finally hit his passive.

Recently released champs do tend to pay for their excess mobility, its primarily the older champs that got mobility without cost.

RavenKouhai11 votes

Don't worry, Sona is paying for her MS boost with a nerf to base speed!

Because why nerf champs that actually need nerfs when you could pick one champ and beat them to death?

Fadedpf7 votes

This is why Assassins are so toxic. I am okay if they do a dick load of damage. But slapping insane mobility with no penalty? Thanks riot

Rinky Dinky7 votes

Sona pays for her mobility by being nerfed

#betternerfsona

Rikari4 votes

What about Thresh btw Kalista's only source of damage is AAs soitem 3075 Vayne pays for it my having more true damage than Irelia even without item 3035 Leblanc Zed continue to astound me

GigglesO4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Varin Omega,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4RBReIov,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-01-06T00:26:58.771+0000) Riot lies to us all, champions don't pay for mobility unless they're not LC$ money makers.

Twitch Pays for his mobility by having to stealth first, and the fact that it takes 6 seconds to stealth.

Tetris Chemist3 votes

it's okay, Diana pays for her movement by needing to hit q or else you just got put on a 20+ second CD meanwhile Akali gets 3 free, massive range/damage jumps every assist or kill

Knight SoIaire 2 votes

Kalista pays for her mobility by negating melees without 3+ gapclosers. Rek'Sai pays for her mobility by being able to make tunnel networks all over the map. Vayne pays for her mobility by going invisible. Azir pays for his mobility by having a wall and insane damage. Lee Sin pays for his mobility by having 2 dashes, an aoe knockup with high ratios, an aoe slow, and lifesteal and spellvamp. The list goes on, all these champs I mentioned have insane damage while having high mobility. Riot lies to us all, champions don't pay for mobility unless they're not LC$ money makers.

[whatever champ you listed there] pays for his mobility with being killable once you flahs to him once every 5 minutes

thats how it works aparently

So Fast2 votes

Akali.

Wicked Annie2 votes

Kalista is squishy as fuck, can't stop her AA animation, and her only steroid is her W which can only be activated with her support. "Rek'Sai pays for her mobility by being able to make tunnel networks all over the map." Being able to make tunnel networks all over the map, that's how her mobility works actually, heh. Her ultimate is useless in teamfights. Vayne pays for her mobility by having a short ass range, being squishy and needs to stick to the same target for 3 autos to activate her steroid.

Those 3 are fine ImO.

But Azir, Lee, Fizz and Zed (And to a lesser extent Akali and Yasuo) need to receive some changes.

MrSc0tty2 votes

Well...Kalista has 0 AOE abilities and the lowest damage potential of any carry besides Ashe.

0 damage ultimate, can't aa cancel, only %HP damage is teammate dependent, no real steroid besides Rend, which is kind of like if twitch didn't have his Q...or his R, just his W.

Only time I've lost to a Kallista was my first game trying Zyra, and I mostly just got shat on by her Thresh support.

Subject 53 votes

Why was this comment up voted? Kalista has an AOE ult, and it states that HP% is teamate dependent in a team based game. No real steroid besides rend, with the exception of kiting for days-that is considered to be a move speed steroid. Wha?

MrSc0tty1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Subject 5,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4RBReIov,comment-id=00170000,timestamp=2015-01-07T16:45:42.434+0000)

Why was this comment up voted? Kalista has an AOE ult, and it states that HP% is teamate dependent in a team based game. No real steroid besides rend, with the exception of kiting for days-that is considered to be a move speed steroid. Wha?

See, a Carry's autoattack damage is generally increased by a damage steroid, that's why they become so strong late game. Tristiana for instance has a 90% atkspd steroid. Her damage is increased by 90% for a long duration. Kog has a %HP steroid. Vayne has a %HP true damage steroid.

Kallista has only Rend, which for a carry steroid is only stronger than Ashe, Caitlyn and Urgot. Which puts her on the low end for damage considering her damaging spells are single target

Subject 52 votes

You just ignored what i brought up like everything you said was new O_O

I'm trying to say that it is false that she has no AOE, and she has a movespeed steroid. Also her passive stacks spears in a person for infinite amounts of damage, it can be used for last hitting and execution. If she has no %HP steroid so what? She can peel for herself and make most top laners not even viable of a choice to even begin with trying to AA her, she just has to orb walk away with ease.

MrSc0tty1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Subject 5,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4RBReIov,comment-id=0017000000000000,timestamp=2015-01-07T17:36:48.889+0000)

You just ignored what i brought up like everything you said was new O_O

I'm trying to say that it is false that she has no AOE, and she has a movespeed steroid. Also her passive stacks spears in a person for infinite amounts of damage, it can be used for last hitting and execution. If she has no %HP steroid so what? She can peel for herself and make most top laners not even viable of a choice to even begin with trying to AA her, she just has to orb walk away with ease.

A movespeed steroid is not a damage steroid, and please, I know it seems like an active spell, but try to think of Rend as an on-hit damage steroid rather than an active spell. For every autoattack, Kallista gets 32+30% Bonus AD extra damage. The fact that it is linked to her slow and can only be popped once is actually a disadvantage to her, since she needs to judge exactly when she needs the extra damage and once she's used it in a teamfight its essentially gone.

So yes, she has an AOE, but she has no way to damage multiple targets at once, two of her spells are somewhat situational in a way that nobody else's are (teammate must be nearby/participating) and her steroid is Rend, which we can easily compare to the steroids of other carry champions.

Now, what if we could compare a similar, immobile champion to Kallista? We could maybe see what she gives up for that powerful mobility.

Varus has a very similar playstyle, minus the dashing, to Kallista. He's got a mark/stack steroid in Blighted Quiver, a hard CC ult, a slow with hail of arrows and a long range line skillshot in Piercing Arrow.

What does Varus have for damage and ratios on all his spells compared to Kallista?

Between Q, E, and R Varus has 790+60% Bonus AD damage+160% Total AD damage. Disregarding any AP ratios he has (we're playing him as an ad carry after all) and using his kit exactly like we use Kallista's.

Kallista has 310+60% Bonus AD Damage+100% Total AD Damage. That is her spear plus the "base damage" from one stack of Rend. She also gets the situational but extremely powerful 20% max HP spike from soul marked if her soulbound autos the same target as her.

Now, as for Steroids. Kallista has her stacks of rend (32+30% AD physical damage)

Varus has his passive (20% atkspd on minion kill, 40% on champ kill or assist) and his blighted quiver (26+5% max HP as magic damage per stack).

So Varus has a slight edge on steroids, a significant edge on damage, and what else does he get?

-Higher attack range by 25 and higher movespeed by 5. Small but the stats that carries most care about. -AOE damage, and loads of it. Q, E, and R all have the potential to hit multiple targets, further increasing the damage Varus is able to output compared to Kallista -Grievous Wounds

Kallista gets vision and mobility.

So, what is the trade off?

Mobility and free vision for damage and waveclear.

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

Kalista has 0 AOE abilities

Kalistas ult is an AOE knockup, that works for engage and disengage from absolute safety.

lowest damage potential

her rend has no cap on damage potential. rend can stack infinitely.

only %HP damage is teammate dependent

oh no now it takes teamwork to shred that tank.

YOU BEEN WARNED1 votes

I agree on what you said except Lee actually has shitty damage except for his Q. I main Lee man, he gets butchered in the new jungle and is reliant on getting Hydra/Sightstone to do anything.

Brenticus125 votes

Riiiiight...

Kowe The Ewok1 votes

You mention Azir, but not Zed, Akali or Riven?

iamthegoatofwar3 votes

Personally I don't see riven often enough to add her on this list off the top of my head give those champs, but Yes I agree fully riven should have less mobility honestly give riven longer CDs or a mana bar and you will suddenly see a less toxic champ.

BlazinChaos1 votes

Rek Sai pays for her mobility with the loss of her auto-attack when burrowed.

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