Taric Changes on the PBE

Oleandervine··35 votes·3,159 views

So Taric has some changes to Q on the PBE -

Starlight's Touch (Q) number & effect changes and number of charges have changed: ◦Mana cost changed from 60/80/100/120/140 to 70/80/90/100/110 ◦Cooldown now 3 seconds (recharge time unchanged) ◦Max Charges changed from 3 to 1/2/3/4/5 based on ability rank. ◦Base Heal Per Charge changed from [20/30/40/50/60] to [30]. ◦HP scaling on heal changed from [1.5% bonus health] to [1% maximum health]. ◦Bravado-empowered attacks changed from [reduce recharge time by X seconds] to [Bravado-empowered attacks grant 1 charge of Starlight's Touch]

As a Taric main, this is on the whole a massive nerf. First off, the biggest (and mostly only) complaint that there is for Taric is that Q costs too much at early levels. This change makes this problem even worse and to several degrees. Q is now more expensive at rank one, making it even less palatable to use, which is further worsened by the fact that a now level 1 Q cannot have more than 1 charge ever. At least on live, you can somewhat make up for the fact that you have a very expensive heal by saving up charges and popping off a 3 charge heal for a better use of your mana. Now, there is absolutely no reason to use Q prior to investing 3 points in it - something you don't want to do as Taric because you want to beef up your Dazzle first. These changes alone (increased mana, 1 charge limit at level 1) render Starlight's Touch useless. The fact that Bravado will grant you charges of Starlight's touch is completely meaningless in the early game, and only barely becomes relevant in late mid to late game. Another problem now is the cooldown that has been added to Q. As it stands now, your Q can be used fairly effectively as an offensive tool to trigger Bravado to help take down turrets or have presence in a team fight, if you have the mana pool to support it. Giving Q a 3 second cooldown will completely decimate Taric's presence and hinder his usage of Bravado as a consistent form of secondary or tertiary damage. It will take what made him somewhat of a decent brawler and completely relegate him to the sidelines by forcing him to strictly be a enchanter who happens to wear armor. There will no longer be incentives for Taric to endanger himself for the reward of having decently spammable damage.

This entire batch of changes to Q will make Taric feel clunky and less fluid. I wholeheartedly disagree with the direction you're going with this, as it doesn't actually address any problems Taric actually has and instead makes them much worse and creates many new ones.

92 Comments

The Fuzzy 0ne21 votes

I strongly disagree... you neglected to show the other changes made to his E. For the purpose of others:

Dazzle (E): Cooldown changed from 15 at all ranks to 17/16/15/14/13 Magic damage increased from 60/105/150/240 to 100/145/190/235/280 Stun duration changed from 1/1.125/1.25/1.375/1.5 to 1.25 at all ranks

AND changes to mana:

Base Mana Regen Per 5 increased from 5 to 8.5. Mana regen growth Per 5 lowered from 1 to 0.8

With ALL changes taken into account this is actually a nice buff to Taric. Though it is taken with a grain of salt since the real problem was Taric's early game and they have done pretty much nothing to help with that since we complained about mana so they gave us more mana regen only to make everything cost more mana lol.

That aside, late game Taric will be broken. Maybe he won't be spamming Q as much, but spamming E will not only be scary to deal with with damage increase, but also makes up for Q spam with it's AA resets more frequent since it's cd was lowered by 2s-> giving more charges on Q giving faaaarrr more heals than before

Oleandervine2 votes

In the end though, you're using Dazzle a whole 2 seconds sooner than you used to, but you're using Q/Bravado a whole lot less, which was much more of his bread and butter damage output than E. I highly doubt that 2 seconds on Dazzle will close the gap on an actual cooldown on Q.

And as to what you said, his late game will be strong. But the problem there is the game is continually getting to the point where only in lower ELOs and certain normal games does a real late game actually exist. So long as this game is snowbally, having a potent or weak late game is irrelevant.

KoKoboto8 votes

You're only using it less if you decide to not rank it up early.

Currently with an average 30% or 20% cdr build it takes 4 Bravado attacks and a bit of waiting in order to get 3 stack heals. So literally nothing has changed if you decide to max this ability early (which you probably will be doing).

Paquay1 votes

I don't play a lot of Taric but all the changes look like they are reducing his early game and adding power to the late game no?

AtheosisX1 votes

{quoted}

I don't play a lot of Taric but all the changes look like they are reducing his early game and adding power to the late game no?

It would seem so. I'm no a Taric player either but I was under the impression his laning phase already sucked.

The Fuzzy 0ne4 votes

It does but it's not really nerf to his early game if you take all pieces of the pie into account. If you max Q first, you're really only buffing the early game since rank 1 new E has more damage and more stun than the old E, if you max E first than you're losing out on what was already a small heal.

And as for combo-ing, you didn't necessarily have enough mana for a sustained fight anyways before so in laning it would only have a small impact, if any.

The Fuzzy 0ne3 votes

not really... at level 1 sure but no matter the ability, if you look past rank 2 it balances or goes beyond what it was before. If anything the changes pushed his laning play slightly above what it is right now imo. But that's all the theoretical mumbo jumbo... only really being able to test it out would any of it give validation to fluidity and balance and since I don't have access to PBE I can't really say 100% one way or the other

Skias2 votes

{quoted}

I don't play a lot of Taric but all the changes look like they are reducing his early game and adding power to the late game no?

He's gaining early game power and losing a tiny bit of midgame for a crazier lategame.

Paquay2 votes

Hmm, so it seems it will be a max Q first then E huh?

Tobias Brackner1 votes

Uh, the completely buffed his early game. Or rather they moved power from his ability to heal in early to deal damage. You can still heal if you put ranks into the heal and just want the stun for CC. However you can put ranks into the Stun and increase its damage and drop the cooldown, allowing for more aggressive plays in lane.

The Fuzzy 0ne2 votes

Yeah I realized that after talking it over with a fellow taric main. It's a pretty full buff to every part of his game tbh

SanKakU2 votes

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The Fuzzy 0ne1 votes

No need to be rude dude... 1/4 of a second isn't that huge a nerf when considering what this overall change to Dazzle brings to his overall game. Taric doesn't revolve around his stun, his key kit aspects are his ult and being able to slap people around while being hard to chunk down. As a Taric main, I'm excited about the changes to dazzle, but maybe it's just how I play him. Do you play him while only relying on his stun? Because 0.25s less stun < 2s cdr for the auto attack reset you get to abuse your passive, but if you have a better way to play him that makes this untrue than by all means share... I love learning about ways to play champs to improve my play

SanKakU1 votes

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The Fuzzy 0ne1 votes

it's a cooldown DECREASE thoug, and a qaa combo takes around 2.5s, and 3s cd on the Q isn't decreased by bravado but it is still affected by any cdr you put onto him

SanKakU1 votes

Not according to my numbers. 15 seconds original charge cooldown becomes 9 seconds with 40 CDR, which with even one attack reduces the cooldown to 2 seconds. Put in a second attack and the cooldown is gone. A second attack also eliminates the cooldown at 20 CDR. Even without CDR, 3 attacks makes the cooldown go away which happens very quickly. The W and E haven't had the same benefit from bravado that the Q has had. That's why any cooldown nerf to them will significantly affect his combat performance in fights.

Edit: oh, I've misunderstood you and misread your post or you edited it yourself, I don't know, but yeah a CDR buff for the E changes things a bunch. Maybe I was too sleepy when I read your post.

The Fuzzy 0ne1 votes

Q or E? I don't understand which one you're arguing since 15s recharge time is redundant with the way they've changed q and it's a base cd decrease of 2s from what it is right now on e at rank 5 so I'm not sure which one you're referring to

SanKakU1 votes

Q gets the bonus, so I was talking about that one. That's why when you posted 'but it's a decrease' I thought you had no idea what you were posting about. Because Q is getting nerfed, E getting nerfed too is a double whammy for his passive. But if E is getting buffed then I guess things will be fine for him. Hard to tell at the moment but losing 3 seconds in Q and gaining 2 seconds in E still looks like an overall nerf but it should be one that I can survive with as Taric.

I read that first line in a very different way, don't know why but I thought "Cooldown changed from 15 at all ranks to 17/16/15/14/13" was actually "Cooldown changed from 17/16/15/14/13 to 15 at all ranks" instead. And that's why I thought you were being stupid in claiming that his E got buffed.

The Fuzzy 0ne1 votes

But that's the thing... cdr never affected the recharge time on q... only bravado did. Now 3s cd IS affected by cdr so it becomes redundant once you get even a little bit of cdr also because the combo takes 2.5s so even enough cdr to decrease 3s to 2.5s would be sufficicient- and that's not a lot.

Now you might be thinking that "oh, but now I can't spam q early".... I mean you couldn't at early levels anyyways because you didn't have the mana for it so by the time you have everything you would have right now playing Taric to spam that q, you will still be able to spam q WHILE gaining healing stacks

DJ Hatsune Miku1 votes

Hey SanKakU, do be mindful of the board's golden rule when making responses to other users. Throwing insults around does not really facilitate thoughtful and respectful discussion. Thanks!

khorney2 votes

i main taric and who cares about the damage increase on his e that is a useless thing they did, also cool now the e doesnt stun as long awesome .....yah more nerfs 0 buffs cool story.

The Fuzzy 0ne2 votes

I also main Taric, and respectfully, I don't see it that way. 0.25s less stun at rank 5 sucks, you're right but that damage boost can be huge, and the cooldown decreasing by 2s let's you abuse your passive more frequently and allows for more auto attack resets but i don't see it as an overall nerf considering 0.25s isn't that huge especially for what we get in return. At least in my opinion.

SanKakU1 votes

I don't know why him and I would both think this unless your post had different content in it earlier, but if it's really a cooldown buff on Dazzle, then that changes a lot.

The Fuzzy 0ne1 votes

it is cd buff, they're changing it from 15s at all ranks to 13s rank 5

khorney1 votes

healing for less? . maxing w first then q then e is always what i did because it was the most effiecient thing. Maxing q now maybe be worth it to heal more becuase i guess people were complaining that taric was staying in lane to long perhaps? now you heal less which is bs and the bravado is based on stacks of starlight's touch. SO essence there really is no cdr so what they are doing is stupid and useless who the fck cares about the damage on his e he isnt meant to do damage what so ever? before the rework you could go top lane ...now you cannot and you are not leo she can go top lane and abuse most people

The Fuzzy 0ne1 votes

Top lane Taric mains would very much disagree with you. In fact they're delighted in the damage boost. And in the right hands, you can use bravado to do loads of damage..

Heals were changed from doing 180 at 3 charges (before scalings) to 150 (before scalings), but that new number is misleading because even without any items or runes/masteries you already get more on top of that since the scaling was changed from BONUS hp to MAX hp. So is it really healing for less once you add the rest the scalings on top of that?

If you want to talk about the new cd added to it, then yes, it royally sucks... if you don't have cdr. As soon as you get a bit of cdr, it won't even matter

Arakadia8 votes

Not counting health scaling, that's a 30 health AoE heal for 70 mana. Which sounds terrible, especially for the cooldown and size.

Sugar Momma2 votes

It basically kills Taric on ARAM (not saying champs should be balanced around it...but his heal already felt pathetic there. 15 HP AoE heal??)

Skias1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sugar Momma,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4JAsvyqs,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2017-06-30T20:53:30.832+0000)

It basically kills Taric on ARAM (not saying champs should be balanced around it...but his heal already felt pathetic there. 15 HP AoE heal??)

The base was 20+1.5% bonus health, literally impossible for it to be 15 at level 1.

Mecha Incognito1 votes

He means that it'll be 15hp heals on ARAM because of the reduced healing.

Skias1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Command Forfeit,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4JAsvyqs,comment-id=0007000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-01T12:04:00.771+0000)

He means that it'll be 15hp heals on ARAM because of the reduced healing.

Who cares about Aram balance.

Mecha Incognito1 votes

Probably a lot of people, it's a very popular map.

Merbstrom1 votes

{quoted}

Who cares about Aram balance.

D: Although, if it's 1% total health it should be moderately fine, even if it still is sorta terrible.

Crett2 votes

yeah i don't like the changes either. at least at face value; i like to give them a chance, but outlook isn't great for me

Oleandervine1 votes

It's the Cooldown on Q that's killing me the most. I could stomach all of the other changes if it didn't suddenly hamstring your ability to spam Q/Bravado.

The Fuzzy 0ne2 votes

I actually think you misread... Bravado still reduces the cd on Q, instead of charges taking time to show up, they skipped the recharge time and just gave the charge instead. Though I don't know what the current cd of Q is I actually think that's insane

Oleandervine1 votes

Current Q is only bound by the charges. There is no cooldown.

Feeding Lesbian1 votes

Dude if that's true and recharge time is unchanged then you're going from 15s recharge time to 3s cd which bravado decreases anyways and cd is affected by cdr too so do the math... the way you just described it is broken as hell

Oleandervine1 votes

The charge recharge rate and the spell cooldown are two different functions for this spell now on the PBE. The equivalent for this would be like Smite, where you can have 2 charges of it at a time, but there's a cooldown after you use one before you can use the other.

The charges of the spell have a 15s recharge. This is unchanged from live. But now, the spell itself has a 3 second cooldown, which means that you can't immediately use it again once you have a charge back up. On live, if you hit Q, land both autos from Bravado, you'd get another charge of Q almost immediately (Bravado cuts the live recharge rate by like 7-8s per hit). There was very little down time, if any at all, after Q-Auto-Auto and you could continuously chain it so long as you had the mana to keep it going. With a 3 second cooldown after you use Q, there's a pause where you can't keep chaining your autos like you can on live.

The Fuzzy 0ne2 votes

because q has an animation effect though qaa takes less than 3s by itself. I just timed it myself. Maybe that's what that guy was trying to get at? That the cd is redundant with the combo maybe?

FakeGravity2 votes

actually it wont be as bad as you think now that scale with max HP and that E have a fixed stun duration, maxing Q is actually viable again, it will never reach the same amount of healing tho old max healing was 180 plus the bonus hp bonus new one is 150 plus max hp you need 3000 hp just to match old value with the old value bonus hp they should increase the base or at least reduce the mana cost further to compensate

DeathBurst2 votes

Another problem now is the cooldown that has been added to Q. As it stands now, your Q can be used fairly effectively as an offensive tool to trigger Bravado to help take down turrets or have presence in a team fight, if you have the mana pool to support it. Giving Q a 3 second cooldown will completely decimate Taric's presence and hinder his usage of Bravado as a consistent form of secondary or tertiary damage. It will take what made him somewhat of a decent brawler and completely relegate him to the sidelines by forcing him to strictly be a enchanter who happens to wear armor. There will no longer be incentives for Taric to endanger himself for the reward of having decently spammable damage.

What? Can you re-phrase that? 'cause either I misunderstand something, or this will have the exact opposite effect of what you're saying.

With the changed on PBE, you can Q, aa tower 2-3 times, Q again 3 seconds later, rinse and repeat. Bravado do trigger on towers, right? So that's even more Bravado attacks than before.

Regarding the first part of your post, I don't have enough experience on Taric to really chime in, but at first sight on PBE, I thought "OK, they want us to max Q first on Taric, now" (EDIT: especially since E stun duration doesn't scale with Rank anymore and damage was buffed by 40 at Rank 1). 'cause yes, if you keep it rank 1 until after level 9, it's a bif nerf, but rank 5 Q is a huge buff compared to old rank 5.

Doctor Jarvis1 votes

Bravado has always triggered on towers, but before you could seriously just hit Q right after those empowered attacks, giving you a permanent AS buff, provided you have the mana pool

DeathBurst1 votes

3 seconds minus the time to do 3 attacks, even with augmented AS, what's left to wait? One second? Pro bably not even that.

SanKakU1 votes

Who wants to wait 3 seconds? Live Taric doesn't have to wait. His Q costs a bunch of mana and barely heals anything. I think they're trying to make him a little less of a fighter and more of a support.

DeathBurst1 votes

Aren't the 3 seconds still reduced by the normal part of Bravado? Did you actually playtest the change? And even if it's not the case, 3 seconds minus the time to do 3 attacks, even with augmented AS, it's what? One second? Don't exaggerate.

'cause the changelog on the PBE makes me think that they want Taric to either max heal first or not be able to sustain in lane while maxing the stun, but it definitely not looks like a net nerf. The maxed up heal is much stronger than before, and his fighter capabilities aren't really impacted.

SanKakU1 votes

The reason he can have sustain in lane is because enemy runs stuff like ADC + Poppy as his lane opponents and Taric builds armor, not because of Q's healing power. These changes would make him better against APC, supportive Mages, and supportive Assassins.

khorney2 votes

wow those are all nerfs 0 buffs i mean who gives a shyt about his e doing more damage.... now it stuns less yay less cc way to nerf taric. I mean the issue with taric and many peopel dont pl;ay him is due to he has 0 engage and no the stun is not a engage. A engage is say naut q blitz q trhesh q leo e sej q j4 q you get the point..... i play him with windskeepers blessing due to its the only thing viable on him now.....before the old damage reduction keystone worked now its okay on him just not that great on him....building shielding and healing power works because yes the procs off relic shield does increase the healing of it.

ModKnightsKemplar2 votes

Yeah, I think we've discussed elsewhere, but I just don't agree it's a massive nerf.

The changes will encourage you to max Q first, and if you do that, it starts looking like a buff to me.

Increased mana cost is offset by increased mana regen. The global CD on his Q makes sense; there was something fun about ability spamming, but there's going to be something REALLY fun about getting a 5 charge heal off, too.

What these changes ACTUALLY do is force Taric into a playstyle that is Enchanter/Warden hybrid, as he is intended. He has been played mostly as a Warden for a long time, and that's not something that I like as a Taric player since Season 2.

I mean, we'll see how the changes all pan out, but this looks like a good approach to me. I'm encouraged that the designers at Riot want the same thing that I do for Taric; they want to encourage a playstyle that is focused on his fantasy of being a protector, instead of just being a slightly worse Warden choice than Braum or Alistar.

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