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Problems with Kalista and Bard

dunder kill··13 votes·4,705 views

I have a problem with Kalista and Bard. No, I don't think Kalista is OP. The problem I'm speaking of with these two champs is that you can control your allies with absolutely no input from them. I think its a mechanic that Riot should stay away from. The worst its been up to this point is Trundle and Anivia interrupting recalls which is annoying but not that big of a deal most of the time. Kalista and Bard are a different level. Supporting a Kalista in soloQ is extremely awkward. She can pull you in when you don't want to be pulled in. Or worse, when you aren't expecting it. I've accidentally launched myself into certain death a few times because I wasn't expecting to get ulted. Bard is going to have similar problems. Being able to freeze allies in place seems problematic when synergy and voice communication isnt there in soloQ. What if they try to freeze me and the enemy, but only end up freezing me when I was about to get away? That would give the enemy time to catch up. Other situations I can think of are being frozen when I know the enemy jungler is a few seconds away. That could give the enemy jungler enough time to make it to me when I could have easily gotten away. I can think of more examples but I think the gist of my point is clear

TL;DR I think having the ability to control your allies to that extent is a mechanic that Riot should stay away from

27 Comments

kDrakari6 votes

Having members of a team on different pages is always a problem, regardless of what tools are provided. Bard being there to give the enemy team a free engage or disengage if he's trolling, isn't going to be drastically more effective at it than constantly broadcasting where his team is going and feeding the enemy carries. It's really hard to win a 6v4 regardless of what champ the 6th is playing.

For simple disagreements, I don't believe that the effect will be MASSIVELY different between somebody playing Bard poorly (or in a different way than teammates expect) and that person playing a different champion in a similar manner. A Malphite ulting the enemy team expecting followup, while his team was expecting to poke or farm or disengage... At best they'll all leave Malphite to die and try to play the 4v5 defensively, at worst they'll get baited into trying to help or salvage the situation and end up getting aced. It would take an ABSURDLY bad play from Bard to make the team as a whole sufficiently worse off than a Malphite making a similarly bad play.

The fact that Bard's kit likely won't have maximum effectiveness in solo queue due to lackluster communication is one thing, which will probably be a substantial problem immediately after release when he's played by people who don't understand him, but people that put in the time to learn him will be just as capable as any other champ (they all require teamwork and communication to be maximally effective) and those that don't will feed and make stupid plays just like they would on any other champ.

Jesus is Savior1 votes

{quoted}

Having members of a team on different pages is always a problem, regardless of what tools are provided. Bard being there to give the enemy team a free engage or disengage if he's trolling, isn't going to be drastically more effective at it than constantly broadcasting where his team is going and feeding the enemy carries. It's really hard to win a 6v4 regardless of what champ the 6th is playing.

The problem is that broadcasting your allies positions in all chat = instaban.

Bard can just pretend to be bad and not say anything in chat, and he won't get punished at all.

He's also a support, so a last pick who gets "stuck with support" now has a legit "support champ" they can troll with.

Narasimha1 votes

If its something he does consistently, and is consistently reported for it, then I assure you, he will get his due.

dunder kill1 votes

To be clear, I'm not pointing out that they can deliberately troll with their abilities, which I guess they can but that's not what I'm getting at. I'm saying that the decision on how to react to certain situations can be taken from you by them. They might make a mistake with their abilities and it takes away your choice on how to react

Baron of Bread1 votes

Saw 6v4, had to put this here.

Karfuss4 votes

Agreed. URF proved how toxic being able to control allies without any of their input could be (Anivia keeping people in fountain, forcing them to flash and both Trundle and Anivia interrupting casts, blocking off jungle routes and preventing recalls).

The only issue now is that Riot is becoming more bold with these types of abilities by making them have more effect, which will cause more griefing and increase the game changing effect they have. As you said too, the person may not even know what you want them to do when you've sprung it upon them because there is no verbal communication. Take Bard for example. A Bard may wish to take his carries out of the fight briefly, so that he and the bruisers can take out their assassin and have his carries follow up when it's safe to go in. He may have good intentions and a good idea, but he'll still be flamed because others aren't psychic. Then another Bard could just take out his team's bruisers and tanks so that the carries get rekt in the late game, so the outcome is guaranteed to be a loss.

Giving champions the abilities to control others is a potent idea, an idea that probably should've never been entertained.

LongHair Fox3 votes

I have a hard time seeing why people hate supporting for kalista. You literally just got a thresh lantern reserved for only you. You guys must be in very low elo to have a kalista not understand when to ult.

As for trollers then does it really matter? if they are going to troll the game is ruined anyway.

Raja Chachki1 votes

Yeah even my unranked Kalistas seem to know that all they gotta do is press R and they save me, either that or I only play with smart Kalistas.

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

Kalista can pull you away as you are about to body block a nid spear for your mage so the mage dies, she can teleport across the map and take you with her, she can decide to use her black spear while you are in the enemy jungle invading and watch the enemy AA you to death while you are stunned, if she dies to the turret and ults you right before she dies you get dropped there without choice, etc.... Those things have all happened to me personally, and it's why we can't have abilities that cc your allies. Trolls used to have to kill themselves to feed the enemy but now they can directly kill you too. At least if a rammus feeds mid i can practice against a fed zed, but bard and kalista prevent me from playing at all.

LongHair Fox1 votes

Your game is ruined even if the kalista played another champion. In most of those cases there it seems more probable that it was more due to the kalista not thinking propperly rather than trolling. I assume she got flamed for it too and you lost game because of that flame.

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

At least if a rammus feeds mid i can practice against a fed zed, but bard and kalista prevent me from playing at all. There is at least something i can do to enjoy the rest of the match, even if it is an inevitable loss, with other champions as allies. That is the difference here.

Of the 4 situations i listed at least 3 of them admitted to trolling in chat, so i reported, but that's not an excuse to give trolls more power.

Here's another post that i think helps to clarify some of the problem with this kind of behaviour. There is nowhere else to go because i can't stop playing with these types of players when they come around. Just a little food for thought.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/bIbEJ6WJ-riot-just-watch-this-please?comment=0019

Ace of Bronze3 votes

How can you have a problem with a champion that hasn't even been released yet? I mean come on bro.

Sammystorm2 votes

I agree. I think that all forms of control like that are very dangerous ground to tread.

OJ1912 votes

It used to be riot policy that "friendly fire" would never exist in LoL (see: blitzcrank hook as the main example)

then along came kalista, and now bard...

Robert Smith1 votes

Honestly if Blitzcrank could hook allied champions he could pull off so many more plays. Jungler flashes in to steal dragon and Blitz pulls him back to safety.

OJ1911 votes

{quoted}

Honestly if Blitzcrank could hook allied champions he could pull off so many more plays. Jungler flashes in to steal dragon and Blitz pulls him back to safety.

Kind of my point? Blitz is from an era when Riot had decided friendly fire, even if potentially helpful, was a big no-no.

sealust1 votes

Agreed, I'm not looking forward to playing with Bards; it's going to be Loki from Warframe all over again.

Both side of the Kalista coin are awkward: pulling a low health support out of danger and running back to your turret only to launch themselves back into the enemy is D:.

While I think Bard's ult could get some really cool results, it's an aoe zhonyas that most players are just going to troll with. :/

Joe Dredd1 votes
  1. There is a short period where you can't instantly get thrown from kalista ult. They give you a moment to realize you've been ulted. It you can't pick up on that then it's a personal problem.
  2. On the escape problem, what if a blitzcrank pulls their tank into you? What if lee sin kicks them into you? This already happens.
Killstrado1 votes

Usually when I play kallista in solo I get a Supp that either uses my ult to escape with full health and gets me killed or goes in regardless of their health and gets themselves killed, that's why I only pick her when someone else picks Supp first otherwise I just jungle and leave the adc role to someone with less rage than I do

Weasel Kensei1 votes

Iv always said this ever since the first time Kilista ulted me

"Kilista is the only champ that requires practice by other players."

First time it happens to you.... SURPRISE!!

Most Kilistas use the ult wrong, the best use for it has to to be when bot comes to gank mid and Kil launches their support at the enemy midlane, or the same for teamfights or denying the dragon/baron. Randomly doing it in the middle of a teamfight against someones will and fore knowledge will probably result in death, pain, or fuckups.

The Bard can of course pull some Anivia BS level trolling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdv2FY2NMfE

Riot does need to stop letting champs "ult rape" other players.

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

They mentioned this in some of their Q&A I believe. Basically, the mechanic is interesting enough that they are willing to take the risk. People who WANT to troll can troll with anyone. As far as it messing up the game... I see your point. But I've come to accept it. I mean, there's lots of champions that can miss their ults and screw the team over. It's not just these two.

Meep Man1 votes

Bard's isnt as bad as Kalista IMO since it gives you a warning and such AND most of the time will only kill allies when intentionally trolling which, in that case, I agree that it is dangerous ground to tread on. HOWEVER, other MOBAs do it and most of them don't mind much (Genji from Awesomenauts, Tiny from Dota, etc.).

only larvitar1 votes

I Don't think this is going to be much of an issue, people seem to think every Bard they will play with is just going to ult them to get them killed. People WANT TO WIN even that Bard.

As far as kalista ultimate you have plenty of time to figure out that you've been ulted as you can't actually launch yourself until you move to her position. She may be able to move you when you don't want to be moved however you have full control over how it is used.

Zìggy1 votes

I promise I won't troll TOO hard on Bard

junglerboy161 votes

I think something that Rabid Llama (Bard's designer) said about this is extremely relevant:

Hey there!

I'm not too worried - I think the first couple of days he's out (and the first days of his free week), we might see a little of this while people >get it out of their systems. But, trolls are gonna troll, and if someone is going into a match with the intention of playing AGAINST his team, >it's going to be a bad time no matter what abilities he has.

Also, I didn't let worries about griefing steer my design process. I have to make a character assuming players are using teamwork and playing together - if I try to hedge my bets and make a spell un-griefable, it often ends up with a worse version of the spell, or one with >unexpected power in weird places.

Trolls will be trolls no matter what champion you give them, the only issue with champions like Bard, Kalista, Anivia, etc. is that it is easier to see how someone might troll with them. In the end their abilities actually improve the game much more than they hurt it, because anyone can troll on any champ, not just the ones that have extra flashiness attached to there potential.

A Blitz can mess up his team just as hard pulling an Amumu into his team as a bard can by stasis-ing the wrong people, or Anivia dropping a wall on you. Kalista though, her's I don't like because not only does it remove agency from the soul-bound, it also is extremely disorienting to someone who isn't in direct verbal communication and is not prepared for her ult, and the way her passive works is completely unnecessary to gameplay, only serving as an extra opportunity for trolling.

TL;DR: of this is that Champs like Bard who have minor Troll potential but have overall really good kits are fine, but someone like Kalista whose trolling potential is mostly linked to an unnecessary effect on her passive that incapacitates a teammate for no reason whatsoever is bad game design.

dunder kill1 votes

Again:

To be clear, I'm not pointing out that they can deliberately troll with their abilities, which I guess they can but that's not what I'm getting at. I'm saying that the decision on how to react to certain situations can be taken from you by them. They might make a mistake with their abilities and it takes away your choice on how to react. Even if they aren't deliberately trolling and actually trying to help

Tripsauce1 votes

JarvanIV The original team troller

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