ADCs are known as tank busters yet they can delete squishies 10x faster than tanks

Tychusfindlay918·Sep 6, 2017·34 votes·3,261 views

They seriously need to utilize a lot more %hp and in return have crit stripped from them.

104 Comments

jwebb0113Sep 6, 201725 votes

hmm adcs who build damage nearly full glass cannon kills squishy targets that get no defense and this is a problem ?

on no a 5 item jinx killed sona

adcs are doing to much damage

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

GlîtchySep 6, 20172 votes

{quoted}

hmm adcs who build damage nearly full glass cannon kills squishy targets that get no defense and this is a problem ?

on no a 5 item jinx killed sona

adcs are doing to much damage

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

They're designed to be tank slayers so it makes no sense that they can slay EVERYTHING

jwebb0113Sep 6, 20175 votes

then how do you purpose a champ who has damage not to kill anything that not a tank ?

GlîtchySep 6, 20171 votes

{quoted}

then how do you purpose a champ who has damage not to kill anything that not a tank ?

Abilities are percentage HP, so no Twitch E semi-one shot, no Jinx W burst, etc.

Simple

dunder killSep 6, 20174 votes

so no Twitch E semi-one shot

hahahahaha

no Jinx W burst

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

GlîtchySep 6, 20172 votes

{quoted}

hahahahaha

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I've been hit by her ZAP and it deals absurd amounts when at full build.

and dude, the whole "hahaha" makes you look like a douche.

dunder killSep 6, 20171 votes

I've been hit by her AP

pls stop

GlîtchySep 6, 20173 votes

{quoted}

pls stop

sorry, meant "ZAP"

ganggoinkSep 7, 20171 votes

You realize jinx is absurdly weak since s5 right?

PopcornBunniSep 6, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Abilities are percentage HP, so no Twitch E semi-one shot, no Jinx W burst, etc.

Simple

With tank items being things like

item 3068 item 3143 item 3075 item 3110 item 3025 item 3742

with a single MR item thrown in for whatever relevant type of mage the enemy team has,

how would %health damage act to fight against tanks? If anything it would just encourage Marksmen to build tanky themselves since they could rely on % health while draintanking through even more damage.

My Waifu VanillaSep 6, 20173 votes

It is almost like there are these things....called ratios....that prevent people from building tank. Rhaast (and to a lesser extent Fiora) are a good example of this since almost ALL of their %max health damage is tied to AD ratios. A full tank Rhaast isn't going to do shit for damage since his Q is almost ENTIRELY on the ratio with a pitiful 5% base on it that quickly gets taken over by the Ratio with his first 3 items.

Easy examples of how marksman could tank bust would be things like:

Tristana E has a %max health ratio instead of that absurd burst it has now. Twitch E OR Passive have %max health ratios (passive obviously doing quite a bit less). Ashe Rework passive to gain a %max health damage ratio on crit instead of just straight up more damage. Caitlyn Headshot has a %max health scaling instead of the potential 1300 damage crits we have now. MissFortune Love Tap does %max health damage.

Doesn't even have to be %max health and could be %current health or something if need be, but it isn't exactly impossible.

Another option is to just straight up rework crit and instead replace it with some sort of tank busting stat so we don't have Marksmen 3 shotting each other because each of their autos do 600+ damage.

EedatSep 6, 201712 votes

Well thats where you're wrong. They're designed to be damage dealers. If they're designed to take down heavily armored opponents, what do you think they're going to do to a squishy exactly?

IcyPepperSep 6, 20174 votes

Can AP do the same tho?

OyddAWqJ5rSep 6, 201710 votes

AP champs are generally designed to deal damage through their abilities, which, generally speaking, have cooldowns. Therefore they are geared to deal burst damage.

Naturally the champions whom deal DPS with no restriction will deal damage more consistently than those geared to burst targets.

Therefore we can ascertain that ADC's should be good at both killing tanks and at killing squishies utilizing their resourceless DPS whereas AP utilizes highly damaging abilities on cooldown to either burst down squishy targets or damage multiple targets and deal a chunk of a tank's health with each rotation.

Once again, generally speaking. Cuz we do have champs like Azir & Cassiopeia that function as AP DPS variants.

Somebody Love MeSep 6, 20172 votes

But thanks to item 3194 DPS mages now get the shit end of the stick

OyddAWqJ5rSep 6, 20174 votes

item 3143 exists. But at the same time, AP crit doesn't exist i guess.

Somebody Love MeSep 6, 20171 votes

On a completely unrelated note, what is that little magic damage animation that looks like the AP equivalent of a crit? I only see it when I get hit by a Ryze Q bounce or something like that, but I always wondered why it looked that way.

OyddAWqJ5rSep 6, 20173 votes

It literally is a magic crit. Some mages have spells that "crit" in order to make them look flashy (literally no reason other than that).

~~They don't work with crit damage increases however but for some godforsaken reason they are reduced by Randuins.~~

Nevermind somehow that patch note slipped past me. Last I remembered they decided to leave it in as an intended effect.

SpoofghoulSep 6, 20172 votes

ap crit does exist Corki

too bad for him i can just build item 3047 item 3143 item 3194 item 3812

and then i laugh my balls of as it takes him 5 years to kill me

EedatSep 6, 20172 votes

Why are you building Armor against Corki? He literally does 85-90% magic damage

Starcraft243verSep 6, 20172 votes

To reduce crits and base damage and AS.

OyddAWqJ5rSep 6, 20171 votes

Huh, never thought about how bad Adaptive Helm would reduce his damage output since it works on his autos.

SpoofghoulSep 7, 20171 votes

yep and you can stack it with tabi & randuins if he goes for a crit build and cut his damage in half

ofc if you want be a real joker you pick a champ with innate % damage reductions and then get redsmite and possibly some other % damage reductions and simply make him deal less damage then your base health regen aka zero dmg

Ive done this with garen a few times it's rather funny

Ashen RiderSep 6, 20171 votes

It does. For instance, Anivia E on a target stunned by Q or in a fully formed Ult.

AhrisSep 7, 20171 votes

{quoted}

hmm adcs who build damage nearly full glass cannon kills squishy targets that get no defense and this is a problem ?

on no a 5 item jinx killed sona

adcs are doing to much damage

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

Shouldn't kill squishies in less than 2 seconds. That is fair point. ADC being the most reliable source of DPS should not dps as good or better than a mage.

jwebb0113Sep 7, 20171 votes

then what mage?

mages use spells and have cooldowns.. there are dps mages

if a mage wanted to build ad and as and crit with armor pen and never use ap and their spells then they could do damage similar to an adc

AhrisSep 7, 20171 votes

{quoted}

then what mage?

mages use spells and have cooldowns.. there are dps mages

if a mage wanted to build ad and as and crit with armor pen and never use ap and their spells then they could do damage similar to an adc

Adc items are really strong right now and reducing the ad so that they can't burst squishies should be something to think about.

jwebb0113Sep 7, 20171 votes

reducing the ad wont help squishies LOL it would make tanks stronger and make bruiser/juggernauts off tanks stronger

squishes die cuz they are squishy they dont have defense they dont build and stack armor or hp

how is this hard for people to understand

oh other adcs are squishies as well

AhrisSep 8, 20171 votes

{quoted}

reducing the ad wont help squishies LOL it would make tanks stronger and make bruiser/juggernauts off tanks stronger

squishes die cuz they are squishy they dont have defense they dont build and stack armor or hp

how is this hard for people to understand

oh other adcs are squishies as well

Make APC the tank killers and make ADC just a sustained DPSers. Sure ADCs are squishy but they are too strong and can combat both APC, tanks, and bruisers. ADC should not excel against everything for being such an easy class to play.

jwebb0113Sep 8, 20171 votes

yet you cant stack MR or have as good of scaling MR as you do armor

so its actually easier to do magic damage to champs who are worried about physical damage

dps mages already kill tanks as it is... burst mages dont

this goes back to the triangle

tanks>burst burst> dps dps>tanks

adcs die to burst from mages/assassins ... the feed ap mage carry should use their burst to focus the adc cuz typically the adc dont build mr very few situations in which they do... however mages nearly all build item 3157 which gives them tanky stats vs physical damage assassins typically get some kind of defense such as ninja tabs or what have you

tanks have the hp and resistances to survive the burst so its not idea to have a annie/zed etc to use their entire kit to try to burst the tank ... now if there is no one else to kill or the tank is low hp then of course do so.

and the dps or adc are the ones who have the tools best to kill the tanker targets due to that sustain damaged

why are we punishing the adc for doing their job and doing damage? 900 hp sona will die 10xs faster them the 2200 hp maokai

but the adc has tools to kill all.

AhrisSep 8, 20171 votes

{quoted}

yet you cant stack MR or have as good of scaling MR as you do armor

so its actually easier to do magic damage to champs who are worried about physical damage

dps mages already kill tanks as it is... burst mages dont

this goes back to the triangle

tanks>burst burst> dps dps>tanks

adcs die to burst from mages/assassins ... the feed ap mage carry should use their burst to focus the adc cuz typically the adc dont build mr very few situations in which they do... however mages nearly all build which gives them tanky stats vs physical damage assassins typically get some kind of defense such as ninja tabs or what have you

tanks have the hp and resistances to survive the burst so its not idea to have a annie/zed etc to use their entire kit to try to burst the tank ... now if there is no one else to kill or the tank is low hp then of course do so.

and the dps or adc are the ones who have the tools best to kill the tanker targets due to that sustain damaged

why are we punishing the adc for doing their job and doing damage? 900 hp sona will die 10xs faster them the 2200 hp maokai

but the adc has tools to kill all.

Mages Have to build Zhonyas to survive against AD assassins. It is not like it is good for their skill set at all. It delays their powerspike significantly. Also it is similar to why ADC not build mr early, why don't they just build hexdrinker and completely deny APC's burst?

jwebb0113Sep 8, 20171 votes

does it not give ap and cdr?

keeps them safe from dying? if you dont die you are able to out put damage

interesting stat according to https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/detailed/

if you sort by damage dealt what champs do you think are top of the list?

ill tell you #1 karthus #2 ziggs #3 xerath #4 teemo #5 heimerdinger #6 kog #7 vel koz #8 MF #9 Swain #10 Illaoi #11 corki

12 taliyah

13 Ezreal

#14 Viktor #15 Brand

what do we see here 10 of the top 15 are ap champs now we do see kog who does mix damage and typically gets rage blade for on hit ap damage and we see corki who does 85% magic damage Ezreal is a caster based adc who can go with some ap the only really true AD PHYSICAL DAMAGE ADC is MISS FORTUNE

AhrisSep 8, 20171 votes

{quoted}

does it not give ap and cdr?

keeps them safe from dying? if you dont die you are able to out put damage

interesting stat according to https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/detailed/

if you sort by damage dealt what champs do you think are top of the list?

ill tell you #1 karthus #2 ziggs #3 xerath #4 teemo #5 heimerdinger #6 kog #7 vel koz #8 MF #9 Swain #10 Illaoi #11 corki

12 taliyah

13 Ezreal

#14 Viktor #15 Brand

what do we see here 10 of the top 15 are ap champs now we do see kog who does mix damage and typically gets rage blade for on hit ap damage and we see corki who does 85% magic damage Ezreal is a caster based adc who can go with some ap the only really true AD PHYSICAL DAMAGE ADC is MISS FORTUNE

"adcs die to burst from mages/assassins ... the feed ap mage carry should use their burst to focus the adc cuz typically the adc dont build mr very few situations in which they do... " Clearly you said ADC dies because they do not build mr. Why do they not? It will give them survivability against APC but they do not choose to do so because the other items are just TOO GOOD to pass(and apc's are not gonna be killing the adc anytime soon). They rather sacrifice their survivability for damage as the damage is overtuned right now. Also, does MR items not give AD? AD is multiplicative with crit so it is basically cdr stats for ADC. It keeps them from dieing as well. "If you don't die you are able to out put damage."

Now to explain the ap mages you listed:

Karthus can dish out consistent damage but it is very situational. For example, if Karthus ulti, everyone will take damage, but it does not mean it will affect the game all that much unless some low hp person dies from it. Also Karthus is known to provide a ton of sustained damage and I do think he needs to get nerfed.
Ziggs. He is a very safe mage who can poke from 1k range away. His damage is all aoe and it hits like a truck. He is probably the most safe out of all APC while dealing one of the most damage. He needs nerf. Safe champs should not deal that much damage(opposed to other riskier apc).
Xerath is also a very safe mage who can poke from very far away. He has mostly AOE damage that damages all targets when he attacks. He is okay as he has clear weaknesses.
Teemo's shrooms are planted on many places of the map. Champs do take damage from it but it will not always be a effective kill as shrooms are not used as his burst. In teamfights he will only land it to tanks and in game other than teamfights only champs that walk into the bush with shroom in it will damage but it will not always decide fight as it is not applied in an instance to a champ.
Heimer is also a sustained damage champ. He will often go in the middle of teamfight to use zhonyas + cannon + ulti to deal massive damage to anyone who comes into range. Again the damage applied here will not last and can be avoided after a couple of pokes.
Kogmaw is broken right now because of the very good build path for adc items.
Vel Koz applies a lot of aoe pokes and does massive aoe damage in teamfights. He is an extremely strong pick and should be kept on the radar.
Miss Fortune is considered trash tier right now but because of how much AOE damage she provides in teamfights she is also up here.
Swain is an ap tank, his job is to go against the front line to deal with him. With range is very low and he won't ever be likely to reach the adc even if he wanted to. His damage dealt is only high because he deals with tanks constantly and his consistent damage is applied to them.
illaoi, a teamfight orientated champ. One good ultimate can destroy teamfights and make it go on her favor. She can 1v5 if all circumstances are met. As result of her very strong aoe she is in the tenth place.
Clearly broken champ. A champ's damage solely relying on auto should never be placed this high in terms of damage dealt. This is because of AD itemization working too good for him that allows him to provide sustained damage.
Taliyah is really strong right now and will probably receive a nerf(i hope). Her 3 damaging basic abilities are all AOE and is as strong as Ahri's 4 damaging abilities including her full ultimate. It is true that Ahri does need a buff but that is for separate discussion.
Ezreal, he has a lot of pokes so it is natural for him to be high in the damage dealt list. He will deal many damage but it is not a burst but a series of hit, most of his damage is not from when the actual teamfight start but rather from before it starts.
Viktor is similar to Karthus, Heimer, and Swain as he puts himself into danger to deal damage. He deals a great deal of AOE damage. His single target burst is also really strong with q. Imo he needs a nerf.
Brand has a very strong AOE teamfighting damage. His damage is from something that he cannot control. He cannot choose to damage the carries or tanks, and most usually tanks are the ones who will take most of his damage. As result his passive deals maximum health damage, so naturally he will have a high damage dealt.

The trend you see are champs that can poke extremely well with a lot of safety(Ziggs, Xerath, Ezreal), champs that have a ton of aoe damage built for teamfighting(karthus, Heimer, swain, Miss Fortune, Illaoi, Vel Koz, Brand, Viktor), champs that has traps that do damage but usually the damage is dealt not when fighting(teemo), and a kiting mage who also provides a huge burst on a low cd(Taliyah). Kogmaw and Corki both do not have a strong aoe damage, safety(corki has w but his range is short so not really safe), traps, kiting, and burst. These two single target dpsers are actually off the chart for how broken their kit is. Their autos hiting one target can go in line with champs who does AOE damage that may hit targets that they did not even want to.

The thing about adc's are that they are never supposed to be in the top 15 of the damage chart. They provide single target dps, not AOE, so why are they allowed to be so high in the damage dealt? No reason, just that they are broken. The fact that some ADCs out performs APC who's damage is AOE shows that ADC's are performing too well and dealing too much damage.

Lux who is a long ranged AOE damage mage is out performed by MANY ADC. So is Ahri who's damage is also all in her AOE(q w r). Why is this the case? It is clear that ADC's are too strong right now and is outshining many APC. What is the point of choosing an AOE mage who's damage will always hit tanks(which obscures data), unnecessary target to damage when you can choose ADC's who you can choose who to deal damage to. ADC's should never be high in the damage dealt. They have to be lower than APC's who use AOE damage.

Also we are looking at champs who build ADC items to do damage and not what type of damage he deals(Corki used to do 10% true damage, how will we compare that?). We are trying to prove ADC items are broken, and the data you provided further supports the fact that ADC's do too much damage. Ahri should never do less damage than Draven. But that is the case right now.

jwebb0113Sep 8, 20171 votes

ok but they all do magic damage outside of mf

you can justify how ever you want.. i didnt create the data i just posted it...

those are the champs that deal the most damage

and all but two are consider Squishy

that being octobitch and swain but he is a dps mage not an ap tank

ap tank would be malphite, maokai, galio etc

the data i provided dont show that adcs are doing too much damage it shows the majority of the damage dealers are AP CHAMPS but nice try to twist it

its not like we see cait, twitch ,draven, jihn , xayah , vayne on that list do we ?

AhrisSep 8, 20171 votes

{quoted}

ok but they all do magic damage outside of mf

you can justify how ever you want.. i didnt create the data i just posted it...

those are the champs that deal the most damage

and all but two are consider Squishy

that being octobitch and swain but he is a dps mage not an ap tank

ap tank would be malphite, maokai, galio etc

the data i provided dont show that adcs are doing too much damage it shows the majority of the damage dealers are AP CHAMPS but nice try to twist it

its not like we see cait, twitch ,draven, jihn , xayah , vayne on that list do we ?

You clearly did not read my post. Now you are just babbling whatever you want. Thanks now I see that you aren't willing to discuss.

jwebb0113Sep 8, 20171 votes

nothing to discuss...

adcs should be able to kill squishy champs

squishy champs should die faster then any type of juggernaut, bruiser, off tank or tank

i dont get the issue.

mages by a majority top damage in plat + rank games

and typically early into mid game adcs are behind the curve in damage til the get their two -three items and they hit their power spike and start to take over the game from that point. earlier if they get ahead and fed

but any champ who gets fed early is gonna dominate til the other team catches up

AhrisSep 8, 20171 votes

{quoted}

nothing to discuss...

adcs should be able to kill squishy champs

squishy champs should die faster then any type of juggernaut, bruiser, off tank or tank

i dont get the issue.

mages by a majority top damage in plat + rank games

and typically early into mid game adcs are behind the curve in damage til the get their two -three items and they hit their power spike and start to take over the game from that point. earlier if they get ahead and fed

but any champ who gets fed early is gonna dominate til the other team catches up

The damage dealt graph is not reliable. It explained about why it was not reliable. However you ignored that portion in order to avoid discussions disproving your point.

dunder killSep 6, 201710 votes

they can delete squishies 10x faster than tanks

Can someone explain why dedicated damage dealers doing more damage than tanks is a problem?

In what world should tanks "delete" someone period?

I dont get this thread at all. Why is ADCs doing much more damage than TANKS a problem exactly?

Somebody Love MeSep 6, 20175 votes

I think he means they delete squishies faster than they delete tanks, when they're supposed to mainly shred tanks

jwebb0113Sep 6, 20175 votes

a squishy has no armor or hp so they would die faster

who do you think dies faster

the sona support with 900 hp 45 armor and 38 mr ? or the maokai with 2200 hp 140 armor and 75mr ?

i would hope the sona dies faster

Somebody Love MeSep 6, 20172 votes

I'm not agreeing. Just clearing up the misinterpretation.

AFilthyCaitMainSep 6, 20172 votes

they dont mainly shred tanks. They are supposed to deal damage. whether its squishies or tanks.

Mens Hair ClubSep 6, 20176 votes

ADCs used to just be objective control but evolved into doing almost everything

i'll say it many times over; the safest and easiest to protect DPS source should not also be the strongest DPS

ProfDrDeathSep 6, 20175 votes

And ranged ADs are not the strongest DPS. They are merely the only ones that can be protected.

Let's compare the DPS of level 18 Tristana and Yi, shall we? Assuming both build item 3031 item 3087 item 3046 item 3072 item 3033 item 3006 and go 18/0/12 with Bloodlust and AD reds/AS quints.

Tristana (AS steroid): Without steroids: DPA 695.2, AS 1.69, DPS 1176.61 With Steroids: DPA 695.2, AS 2.41, DPS 1678.27

Yi (AS steroid, Double Strike passive, True damage on E): Without steroids: DPA 796.18, AS 1.81, DPS 1440.72 With Steroids: DPA 814.73 + 117.56 True, AS 2.35, DPS 1916.84 + 276.27 True

Yi's max DPS is 131% of Tristana, meaning almost a third again Tristana's DPS, and a good part of it is true damage, too.

The only issue is, a team can scarcely protect Yi while he applies that DPS, as he invariably is in range of the enemy fire - and as a main source of damage, he WILL be focused. And unlike DotA, due to lacking 7 potential levels of base stats, double-dipping in offense and defense and nonscaling ability damage, said focus will have the potential to kill Yi several times.

EDIT: There's no changing this fact: As long as League will have scaling ability damage, squishy sustained damage melees will have no place in it.

EDIT#2: Hell, even squishy burst melees have a hard time nowadays, with their burst windows elongated and burst reliably decreased for counterplay's sake...

EedatSep 6, 20175 votes

Well they way it should work is that ADCs get deleted by APCs and assassins....

But assassins apart from Talon are destroyed and APCs can't burst through the 3k heals and shield they get

warmcorntortillaSep 6, 20174 votes

I wouldn't care except that it feels like mages get .002 seconds of being 'powerful' in game, then the ADCs get their second/third item and can just do more than any mage ever could. Like, most mages need to land their whole combo to delete a squishy, but all ADCs do is auto attack. Quinn has always been assassin like, but now she doesn't even build lethality to blow you off the map by hovering her cursor over your body and clicking you.

THAT'S what feels so damn bad. There should be some tradeoffs for how resourceless and consistent ADCs are. If a mage gets half-healthed in a teamfight, that teamfight is over for that mage. If an ADC gets half-healthed in a teamfight, they aa a wave of creeps and oh, WOW they're full HP again! If a mage uses all their mana, guess what? They're useless now. If an ADC uses all their mana 1.) haha silly why no item 3508 ? or 2.) AA don't cost mana. If a mage misses their skillshot(s), which they NEED to land to blow you up, unless they are stupid-fed (especially with Janna Soraka being so meta atm) then they just don't get the kill, and are probably now out of position and have cooldowns to wait for. What happens if an ADC misses a skillshot? NOTHING because their skillshots/abilities (most of them) only ENHANCE their main damage ability--which is hovering their cursor over your body, and clicking you.

I don't care that ADCs do lots of damage to squishies, I care that they can do it 1.) too consistently 2.) waaaaaaaay too early in the game 3.) resourcelessly

Teridax68Sep 6, 20173 votes

I personally don't feel like that's the best course of action to take, as percent health damage or armor pen/reduction work by devaluing tankiness, which also often makes tanks too tanky when they're not faced with that kind of damage, which then isolates balance between marksmen and tanks even more, unless more classes also receive that same kind of target-agnostic damage.

The thing is, squishy targets should always die faster than tanks. The core purpose of tankiness is precisely that it takes those champions more time to die than squishies, and that should remain the case under all circumstances. However, what could possibly be an issue here is the gap between squishies and tanks in terms of how quickly they die: if, for example, tanks really do die ten times slower than squishies, when they should really be dying only three, four or five times slower, then the answer should be to either nerf tanky stats like health and resists (if tanks are too tanky overall), or buff the health, resists, etc. on squishies (if they're too squishy overall). If the issue lies specifically with how marksmen kill squishies too quickly, the better move might be to nerf marksman damage, but also nerf the tankiness of tanks if they're also too durable. Target-agnostic damage in this situation merely makes balance more difficult in the long run, I feel.