Shyvana's kit has been a mess because of Devourer

PapaGreg21··31 votes·1,395 views

Riot should really take a look at her kit because Devourer really messed things up for her (good and bad). This is what has happened since the height of Devourer.

  1. Jungle Shyvana was way too strong but things like titanic were nerfed to slow how fast champions could clear camps/minions (as well as no longer getting the fast 5 rift herald stacks). Top lane Shyvana was subpar. Shyvana continued to be way too strong in the jungle despite making getting sated more difficult and needed to be nerfed.

  2. Twin bite was nerfed to slow down her early game/dueling. This was an especially hard nerf as most people would level this up last but this change made it difficult to trade without leveling it after burnout. Thus, it had multiple effects on her gameplay and also made top lane Shyvana very weak (she is currently at 38% for the few people that attempt to play her there). People rightfully began to wonder if she was being Sejuanied.

  3. Devourer was removed and Shyvana was given AP ratios on burnout to make buying Guinsoos a solid part of her kit. However, in practice this item turned out to be less than ideal. Most players skip buying it and just allow all the AP on her kit to go to waste. Jungle Shyvana is currently only played at roughly a 2.8% play rate as there are better options at the moment. This recent patch she was able to climb back over the 50% win rate mark but I assume it is only because her play rate has gotten so small that win rates aren't as accurate.

I would suggest removing the AP ratio on her burnout as very few people are actually trying to use them. Then taking a look at twin bite again and improving it to a point where the ability doesn't feel terrible (whether that be through damage buffs, adding a slow, consuming the flame breath mark for damage, etc.) I would say to simply revert the Q nerf but I have been around long enough to know that nothing ever gets reverted in league of legends for some bizarre reason.

19 Comments

Sire Hippington9 votes

Not only because of devourer, but also because of the increased damage vs monsters. Whenever shy is strong since then, it's because her clears are so absurd that she can just gain a strong gold and xp lead from powerfarming to become a massive monster in hte midgame. However, since all her power comes from xp/gold lead, her actuall kit is not really strong so she performes bad in lane and bad in lategame teamfights once her opponents catch up in gear/xp, as all she is good at is clearing the jungle.

If you look at her winrate, her jungle once again is doing well after the buffs to bloodrazor and after they realised guinsoo's is shit now, while toplane shy still is like the worst thing ever.

What really needs to be done is removeing the % bonus damage on her W vs monsters to free up power. The revert the Q nerf, as well as maybe a few others(asumeing reverting things would be something riot ever does-,-) And guinsoo's needs changes, or melee's need another strong on-hit that fits them outside of jungle., but as it is, aa-bruisers still suck top with the exeption of irelia and jax, partially because they scale bad into teamfights and/or are vulnerable to ganks, but also because itemisation is shit for them if they don't abuse trinity.

Also, removeing the ap ratios would be pointless. It wouldn't free up any power for her kit unless ap-builts are dominant on her and hold back other builds, which certainly isn't the case.

The Yetii Rider5 votes

The issue is that if you remove her bonus damage to monsters (which Riot did test on the PBE at the same time they were testing the Twin Bite nerfs) Shyvana's first clear becomes horrifying. She's got pretty bad base stats and is fairly reliant on the armor from her passive and her speed at clearing to avoid dying to camps or invades.

Shyvana is a jungler. Just like Master Yi, just like Amumu, just like Sejuani. Riot doesn't need to balance her for top lane.

Sire Hippington1 votes

When how about buffing her base stats by some instead? Or revert q+w nerf? The reason she got the % buff in first place was becasue she was a powerfull toplaner at the time and they wanted to buff her jungle without impacting top. Now she's prettymuch the most horrible toplaner in the game and her bonus damage vs monsters is all that keeps her viable in the jungle,. and thus keeps her from buffs that her kit really would need.

Hinagiku331 votes

...except you don't have to go that far back before you hit a phase where Shyvana and DrMundo were the dominant top laners.

Just because Shyvana is primarily a jungler doesn't mean you don't have to consider how she might end up crushing a lane depending on changes to her kit.

Besides, Master Yi was not designed as a jungler and only really ended up there because of Feral Flare. Heck, he used to be the bane of mid lane. All who remember AP Yi and his 1,000 damage Q's still shudders at the memory.

YumaS2Astral1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fiora All Night,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4Fmxzljn,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2016-06-15T19:39:43.853+0000)

...except you don't have to go that far back before you hit a phase where Shyvana and DrMundo were the dominant top laners.

Just because Shyvana is primarily a jungler doesn't mean you don't have to consider how she might end up crushing a lane depending on changes to her kit.

Besides, Master Yi was not designed as a jungler and only really ended up there because of Feral Flare. Heck, he used to be the bane of mid lane. All who remember AP Yi and his 1,000 damage Q's still shudders at the memory.

I think the reason why Master Yi ended up being a jungler is because he is very vulnerable during the lane phase? Also because during the time that Sated Devourer existed, this item was too good to pass up for him.

Slamurai Jack1 votes

I'd argue the biggest reason Yi is a jungler is because it gives him the most opportunities to get fed.

Only Play Darius1 votes

I think they give her the %HP damage to monsters because she is the only farm jungler that lacks any kind of healing.

PapaGreg211 votes

While I agree that removing the AP ratios is pointless, I feel that is more a psychological nerf that would make people think that buffs elsewhere would be more justified.

SpaghettiTime3 votes

Sion Sejuani

ltmetal3 votes

Thus, it had multiple effects on her gameplay and also made top lane Shyvana very weak (she is currently at 38% for the few people that attempt to play her there). People rightfully began to wonder if she was being Sejuani'd.

There is no "if" here, she was Sejuani'd. However, in the case of Soraka and Kayle and Sejuani and Sion and Ekko and Gragas and Hecarim and all the other champs that came before them, the nerfs still proved not to keep them totally down, just temporarily rotated out until we relearned how to build them. Top Shyvana obviously still needs some love, but Jungle Shyvana isn't in the toilet by any means and won't need buffs to maintain a 50% winrate.

Gixia3 votes

Regarding the AP added to her burnout, that wasn't intended to be a 'buff' per say so much as it was meant to be more a quality of life change. It wasn't meant to make Guinsoo a solid part of her kit, so much as it was meant to make Guinsoo's a thing you might maybe consider buying sometimes because otherwise you would never even consider buying such an expensive item when half the stats go to waste. It was also meant to make it so that she gains a bit more value from Baron buff (which is half the reason most AD champs have any ap ratios at all). So, there's really no value in removing the AP ratio, because since it's already not really adding anything to her to begin with beyond making one sub-par item marginally viable, removing it wouldn't suddenly give them more room to buff her.

PapaGreg211 votes

Interesting point with Baron (and dragon) buff. I never thought of that but I realize that is some hidden power in her kit now.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

jungle shyv doesn't need devourer

It just gave her burst, now you just get damage over time and penetration so basically item 1400

PeanutButterFan1 votes

Shyvana the magic dragooon... Yes I'm terrible.

Jungle Lux God1 votes

Twin Bite would be a pretty good place to give Shyvana some love. Making it not terrible as a 1-point wonder in particular would be really good at improving her as a champion since her best level orders leave it like that.

I don't think it's worth getting rid of the AP ratio on Shyv's burnout. It's not helping Shyvana be better as a champion, but it's not hurting her abilities as a champion altogether. It's like Garen's E being able to crit: it's there for off-builds but it's not hurting the champion.

Yaskamasandwich1 votes

Shyvana may need an overhaul. Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't she suffer from the fighter binary problem? Your stats are higher you win, lower you lose sort of thing?

TheUltimateSpear1 votes

I agree with all you said OP; Shyvana's due for buffs because she got nerfed due to a jungle item that doesn't exist anymore, and her top lane game is terrible right now.

What really needs to be done is removeing the % bonus damage on her W vs monsters to free up power. The revert the Q nerf, as well as maybe a few others

Don Cingulum has covered pretty well what should be done to Shyvana I think. If we can somehow convince Riot to go through with these 2 changes they'll help Shyvana greatly, maybe reassess and see if she needs further help after that.

An upvote in hopes that Rito will listen to their players for once. [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Mistress Shyvana1 votes

This is such a good thread with amazing Ideas. Can We at least get a rioters input in this. Anything? Many good points and suggestions have been made. We need answers if anything just to hold us over until SOMETHING changes.

Shyvana is love. Shyvana is life <3

PapaGreg211 votes

Riot has went pretty dark on all post-devourer junglers. I assume they consider they have had their time in the sun and won't be looked at again for quite a while, which is frustrating.

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