Fizz: A plea from a friend of fish

TheGrot··3 votes·964 views

Let me first say that this post is not intended to focus on if fizz is "over powered" or anything. I am going to make a prediction, speak my mind from my knowledge of the game, and hope that I get heard out. Right now I'm scared. I'm scared for Fizz and that's why I'm making this post. Fizz has from what I can tell, become for the most part thought of as a top laner. Not because he has (because he hardly does) any ad scalings or hp scalings whatsoever, but because for 5 seconds he can do 8% of a targets missing health on hit. This change seems to have grabbed everyones attention and most of the time I see fizz being played ad bruiser top lane so that he can build attack speed for this.

Why am I concerned? Here's the thing, Fizz mid is actually still very good. It has gotten very slightly worse in some places because of the changes, but because of how he was changed nothing was drastic to his capability of carrying in the mid lane. Although I know that there are plenty of people who will disagree with me, I believe that fizz is still better mid lane than everywhere else. Of course theory and arguing over numbers can only take one so far, I made a point to seeing Fizz mid in a diamond solo queue setting. I would intentionally pick him into what would previously be even or hard match ups and see how I fared. Of course I did really well and have continued to do really well with fizz mid. He still carries to nearly the same effect, despite what the nerfs may lead you to believe.

(Note: This section is how I see the changes effected fizz mid for those who are interested. This is not my primary concern of the post) I still think fizz is better as a mid laner, and although I do not intend for this to be the main topic of discussion, I will share my logic and reasoning with you. However, I can't share my own in game experiences you that I've had with fizz. Here's what the changes did to fizz mid (if you ask me): 1). His last hitting got a bit harder. Before it was easier to let the damage over time last hit the minions but now that the passive isn't based off of missing health, it's a bit harder. 2). He can no longer can be picked to counter things like soraka or swain. (Grievous wounds removal) 3). His early game is a bit harder. He doesn't deal as much damage early. He can still solo kill people before lich bane, it's just not as easy. 4). You can't miss your ultimate anymore. 5). Your late game is actually scarier since the changes, in a sense. At the very least, his mid to late game (by this I mean any time after lvl6+lich bane) has not been hurt overall. Here's the way I can help you think about this. Your Q (Urchin Strike) scaling got nerfed by 30 percent. OK, at a glance that does seem pretty bad. And your W (Seastone Trident) scaling was also reduced. If they touched his E (trickster) it would've been bad but they didn't. And they buffed his R (Chum the Waters) to give you 20% bonus damage towards the champion you hit with it for 6 seconds. Remind you of anything? Cough cough DFG. This is actually the buff that saved fizz mid from being gone to still being good. 5.1). More on this part: The W changes really didn't even hurt that much. You instantly killed them before right? Well I've got good news for you, you still do! A couple of seconds of damage overtime does not matter if they are already dead! This was primarily a nerf to his early game as well as his Q. The scaling on Q was more significant because you do use it a lot for damage and rely on using it to kill people at all stages of the game. (I say this versus W in the sense that I don't ever expect for a champion to live after I go in on them, nor do I feel I should rely on W to magically kill them if they get away. I don't rely on W to burst people down, though it does help with dealing damage) . The shark buff means you can kill just about ANYONE you want? The AP scaling nerfs can honestly be ignored because of this 20% damage. With Trickster alone this is a ton of bonus damage. (This bonus damage also includes lich bane and with lich bane alone you already scale 15% more with ult). The counter argument to this would be 'What if I don't use ultimate to kill them?'. Well you may not be able to kill anyone in the game super fast, but you can still 2 shot the ADC and mid laner no problem. Assuming they don't have banshee's veils and that if they have stacked MR then you have void staff. Also, I don't think it's a bad thing to have to use your ultimate to be able to kill ANYONE in the game. I'm sorry but when's the last time you saw a zed ult onto a fully built tank and destroy their health bars? You don't see that a lot with other assassins like ahri to be quite honest. I don't think it'd be fair to say that Zed or Leblanc are bad champions because they need their ultimate to kill things, which, not entirely but for the most part, is a pretty fair statement. He still has a lot of AP scalings that go a long way when you build him up. Scalings that don't get abused when you stack AD and Attack Speed. Aside: I have pulled out fizz mid in a solo queue and more than a solo queue setting and will continue to do so.

Now back to why I spent all the time to write everything and make this post. The change to W has made fizz jungle and top a thing and has made it significantly more popular than fizz mid. I realize this. I have played this game long enough to fear nerfs based upon popularity. I predict that in the future, nerfs will be put into place to reduce the effectiveness of fizz top and jungle. I ask, with a very kind heart, that when and if this is done that the changes are thought out well enough such that Fizz's mid lane is not hurt in the process. Example: Let's not kill the base damages and assume they only apply to fizz top. There are changes that can be made to specifically target Fizz top or jungle without targeting his mid lane. If I were to do this (and this is not what I'm suggesting Riot to go do right this minute but to give what I would consider an example of a fair nerf towards Fizz without hurting his mid lane too much) I would look right at his Q because that's what got him here in the first place. You could touch up his attack speed but that would be felt by fizz mid and people would still just stack attack speed on him. OK so I identify the problem as, Fizz top lane or jungle does too much W on hit damage when he stacks a lot of attack speed. Observation: I don't want to touch his attack speed and risk hurting his early game mid. Now, what if I gave his W a cooldown? How can I do this without hurting fizz mid? It would be kind of like a nautilus CD on his passive, but not nearly as long. Let's say that you can only proc the % missing health damage once on the same champion every 1 second. The only exception would be if I use Q, then it may proc again, but I may only count on the damage being applied in an AUTO ATTACK every 1 second. This way fizz's mid damage isn't hurt because he doesn't stack attack speed or attack faster than once a second anyways. It also means that his passive can't be abused in other positions by stacking a bunch of attack speed.

I am not saying that Fizz is overpowered and needs a nerf, nor am I saying he is under powered and needs a buff. Fizz is my friend, my main fish. I am asking, begging, pleaing, that if Fizz gets changed that any effects on his mid lane get taken into account. Thank you for any and all who have read this and have a nice day!

7 Comments

Talinis2 votes

AP fizz isn't better, the only way to go AP fizz is to go BRUISER AP fizz, which is, magic pen and then abyssal and tank. The reason he makes for a good bruiser is because he can do a lot of damage while going tank items. That is what bruisers do, are pretty tanky with the ability to deal out significant damage with just a couple damage items. Most do not have more than 1 CC, and FIzz has 2 slows and a knock up tied to the ultimate. Most bruisers have a gap closer or two. Lee has a couple, Irelia has 1, jax has 1, etc. Fizz's kit actually was built poorly for assassin, it's a very toxic set up. You either insta burst down your target or you are useless/die and when you do insta burst, the E doesn't allow retaliation from the enemy. He doesn't get resets, he doesn't have poke, he doesn't have port backs, he doesn't have a lot of tools that other assassins have. Everything I see in his kit makes for a better bruiser than an actual assassin, I mean really, what use did W ever have in assassination, besides extra damage for Q and E is supposed to be his escape a lot of the time. again every other assassin have resets or port backs or ranged poke, which means that they can either reliably escape after a kill or soften up a target for an easy kill. Fizz has none. Sorry, but unless the kit is reworked to add more assassin tools, it's just way too toxic as assassin, either insta burst or die and his E makes it very toxic when he is able to insta burst. Right now, his kit does not allow him to deal very much damage quickly as AP. His W scaling is over time, his Q scaling was halved. His E is still a skill that can be dodged easily and his R is something that is easily negated, something higher elos have an easy time doing with the plethora of abilities/items that negate it. Not to mention it's a skill shot, unlike Zed's, so you can just dodge. At least Zed can poke without his ult, Fizz... can't do anything.

TheGrot1 votes

The reason I didn't want to center this discussion around a debate over which is better is for reasons like this. I know there are people that are just going to say no and without thinking about it. I have been playing it a decent amount and I know where I stand on the matter. Since the nerfs I haven't even seen those collection of people that normally go back to try it out and see how it works. The Fizz mids besides myself that I have seen have dominated just about every game. I could argue on this matter for a long time and it would be a very frustrating process because unless you go play it and see it for yourself, the numbers are very deceiving and easy to misunderstand. I also am not a fan of the "sorry but no" kind of comments that make logical errors.

What did I intend with this post? I intended to share my prediction that fizz top or jungle would get nerfed somewhere in the near future. I shared my standpoint on where fizz is as a mid laner right now and tried to make it very clear that I did not want or mean for this to be the topic of debate. Fizz is better top and Fizz is better mid are both opinions right now. You can't call one fact unless popular opinion makes something fact here. For that reason I thought it would be interesting to share my honest thoughts on fizz mid at this current time but make sure I was not trying to start an argument to prove or disprove their validity. I intended to share my prediction of a nerf and express that when/if Riot should nerf Fizz's top lane or jungle that they do so while being careful not to nerf his mid lane.

If they choose to nerf fizz's mid intentionally, then I will be rather sad. If they mean to target fizz's top lane in a nerf but unintentionally also end up nerfing his mid lane, then I will be a bit frustrated. Riot will nerf or buff what they want. I'm just asking ahead of time that they be kind and generous to track what exactly they are changing when/if they take a look at fizz.

There's a lot more I could say as to why I think Fizz is better mid than top, but I'm not going to because this is a frustrating argument that I really don't want to start. I know what fizz can do, I know the champion. You don't have to tell me. If you share my feelings about wanting to avoid unintended changes due to a targeted nerf/buff, then great! I'm glad you agree with me. If not, then that's also OK. If you think Fizz top is greater than Fizz mid then that's your opinion. While I appreciate you have that opinion, this is not the forum post intended for it. Thanks!

t0ad51 votes

Stopped trying for mid about a year ago, due to all the drama related in getting the position. I hope they don't ruin fizz jungle, else one less mechanically fun champ to play.

Talinis1 votes

He's not going to be touched much, Riot intentionally made him into more of a bruiser champion with those nerfs. There is 100% no way a person who actually knows much about this game could not know what the changes were going to do. He's no different then a jax right now tbh. If anyone legit thinks that Riot was actually still trying to make him an assassin is kidding themselves. As an assassin, he's like Zed, except much, much worse at the job.

Zed - Relies on ultimate for assasination

Fizz - Relies on ultimate for assassination

Advantages:

Zed: No mana, very long ranged poke, ranged slow, healing because AD items have lifesteal, very strong AA's due to all the AD, ultimate places him next to target, ultimate is targeted, ultimate allows him to port back to safety afterwards and doesn't cost an extra skill to escape, and he is a very large lane bully so easy to get ahead.

Fizz - Has ability to dodge abilities and has a strong dot, can walk through units, ultimate has a slight knock up and big slow attached.

Zed as assassin - 47 - 48% win rate

Fizz as assassin after nerf - 42% win rate

Fizz is played bruiser for a reason, his kit syncs very well with it.

TheGrot1 votes

No actually, not in my opinion at least. I don't see anything in his kit that makes him a bruiser. Fizz's kit allows him to deal a lot of damage really quickly and dodge most things that get thrown at him. Mobility is what makes assassins so good at being assassins, which, on a slightly irrelevant not, is why Talon has fallen out of style. He's just not as mobile as other people. He can get in and deal damage but it's a lot harder for him to get out. I also don't know where you're pulling those win rates (consider citing your sources) from but from my own experience and what I've seen. I've seen Fizz mid succeed a lot more frequently than anywhere else

Darkwind1 votes

To be fair, he actually has pretty solid AD scaling. In particular, he has an AA reset and his ult amps all autos (along with everything else) by 20%. That's not bad.

TheGrot1 votes

Like I said, I'm not saying AD fizz is bad. I do and still think that AP Fizz is better. I have all of these AP scaling that I'm just not abusing. I don't even consider him to have an AD scalings on his abilities since the only one he has is on his Q and that's only there to make it an auto attack reset. Bruiser Fizz doesn't exactly have a lot of reliable cc either. I mean in one case you deal damage in another case you deal damage. I just don't think people have given Fizz mid enough of a second look to reliably say which does more.

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