Healthy vs unhealthy true damage.

FistOfSharkiesha··4 votes·3,171 views

Look at some of the most broken or toxic champions in the game with true damage. Darius Fiora Irelia Vayne. Notice anything about them? Their true damage has high base value, and is spammable. Darius and Irelia's true damage is mentioned somewhat frequently as being overpowered, but not unmanageable, while Fiora and Vayne's % maximum health true damage has 0 counterplay and is connected to champions who have the means to solo carry (Fiora's riposte + dash + massive heal, Vayne's tumble + condemn). Darius and Irelia are examples of champions with extremely powerful but not toxic and broken true damage. Fiora and Vayne are the poster children for toxic as fuck champions with no counterplay.

First of all, % max hp true damage should not exist, especially not in spammable form. If you want to give it to someone's ultimate so they can only use it once every 80 or so seconds, depending on the nature of their kit, this can be dealt with. However, giving it to a champion on her permanent passive is just inherently toxic, even without taking into account that the 2 champions with this permanent true damage have kits that synergize with it to make it even less manageable. % current health or flat true damage is bad enough but % max health just doesn't fit into this game. Fiora is especially toxic as a drain tank now. A Fiora who went even in lane can 1v3 any composition that isn't just flat out high dps because when she's built drain tank she can win trades with anyone in the game all while healing any of the damage she may have sustained.

Now look at the champions with healthy true damage. I have never seen these champions called toxic or overpowered because of their true damage, not even once. Velkoz Ahri Corki Zyra KogMaw Twitch

Notice anything? Corki will most likely never build more than 350 or so AD, so his true damage is very minimal. Ahri can't spam her true damage and it's a tiny 35% AP ratio. Vel'Koz must hit 3+ skillshots to deal a small amount of true damage and will never reliably proc his passive more than twice in a fight. Zyra and Kog'Maw both have 1 off true damage that can't even activate unless they're dead, ensuring they don't go on a 1v5 neverending true damage rampage like Vayne and Fiora. Twitch, like Corki has extremely low true damage, but his doesn't even scale by any means. One more thing to note, all of this is flat true damage. These champions can't walk up to a tank with 4000 HP and 300 Armor and melt them.

So let's try to learn our lesson and not release any more % health true damage into the game, especially when it scales with items and is on champions with kits who make it even more toxic than it is by itself.

18 Comments

HaIlMonitor1 votes

Irelia isnt "op" because of 75 true damage at level 7. She has a really well made kit with cc, sustain, gap closer, and has a one item power spike. If you took away her true damage you would probably have to rework the whole champion or make her base attacks hit harder.

FistOfSharkiesha3 votes

Her kit is all very interconnected. Without her true damage she couldn't grab a bork or triforce and then go full tank and proceed to melt everyone. I don't have a problem with Irelia, just giving her as an example of a champion on the stronger side of true damage. When she can get off 10+ attacks while her W is active thats 750+ true damage that can't be itemized against with anything but hp stacking.

Again, don't have a problem with her. This was a thread trying to give perspective on true damage. %max hp is a problem.

HaIlMonitor1 votes

And her autos hit for about 200 after getting a TF at level 11 or so.

Primaquarius1 votes

Healthy TD: Vayne

Unhealthy TD: Garen

You read that right, I'd rather take on Vayne and her HP-based TD than see a Garen run up on me from nowhere and ult my for 45% Max HP after Silencing me.

Gigahappytown1 votes

{quoted}

Healthy TD: Vayne

Unhealthy TD: Garen

You read that right, I'd rather take on Vayne and her HP-based TD than see a Garen run up on me from nowhere and ult my for 45% Max HP after Silencing me.

Neither of them are heathy

Healthy true damage is something that can be outplayed or avoided

darapier171 votes

vel and twitch have td?

KayleeT1 votes

Vayne's true damage has counterplay rofl and it really doesn't hit that hard, she does about 2-3x more physical damage than true damage depending on how tanky you are

EndlessSorcerer1 votes

If you trust Champion.GG, her damage dealt is about 80% physical damage and 20% true damage, which is even better.

WarlockLaw1 votes

I feel that Vayne's true damage is fine so long as her laning phase is weak. She only has the tools to reliably peel one champion off of herself. Maybe it shouldn't have the base damage, but the % max health true damage is fine on her as its consistent and you know about it the whole time.

Fiora shouldn't have % max health true damage as I feel that is Vayne's shtick. Also since it scales with her ad and she can reliable proc 2-3 times consecutively with an ideal possibility of 5, assuming the target lives that long. This should be swapped for flat damage.

Darius' true damage is fine, bigger problems in his kit are the bonus ad from passive (200 at level 18 btw) and low mana costs.

Irelia's true damage is strong but still less do than her stun and healing, and it hits carries worse than tanks.

Twitch's true damage isn't healthy it's just on the other end of the spectrum. His passive deals less damage than some champions hp5 especially if it isn't fully stacked. It's weak, but since it's a passive on hit idk if it should be buffed.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

I feel that Vayne's true damage is fine so long as her laning phase is weak. She only has the tools to reliably peel one champion off of herself. Maybe it shouldn't have the base damage, but the % max health true damage is fine on her as its consistent and you know about it the whole time.

Fiora shouldn't have % max health true damage as I feel that is Vayne's shtick. Also since it scales with her ad and she can reliable proc 2-3 times consecutively with an ideal possibility of 5, assuming the target lives that long. This should be swapped for flat damage.

Darius' true damage is fine, bigger problems in his kit are the bonus ad from passive (200 at level 18 btw) and low mana costs.

Irelia's true damage is strong but still less do than her stun and healing, and it hits carries worse than tanks.

Twitch's true damage isn't healthy it's just on the other end of the spectrum. His passive deals less damage than some champions hp5 especially if it isn't fully stacked. It's weak, but since it's a passive on hit idk if it should be buffed.

Yeah, Twitch's passive is extremely weak. Contaminate only does good damage early game (if you have about 2 attack speed). 216 true damage over 6 seconds is nothing compared to 3 auto's from Irelia (which takes a good deal less time).

'Nother Darius problem: Built in Armor Pen. Built in. So 250-300 AD is enough to last all game.

Irelia has tons of Tenacity, which is the main problem. How do you kill people with lots of sustain/damage? Lock them down. Can you lock down Irelia? Not for more than 0.5 seconds at lvl 18. Seriously, once I used a 2 second stun on Irelia, it basically didn't do anything because by the time she could auto attack again, it was gone.

Fiora... I have not played against enough.

I agree with removing the base damage from Vayne's W, as long as it scales back up late game. The main problem is it's uncounterable - build life and it only does more damage; armor does nothing. I mean, it shouldn't be able to proc on you more than once over 10 seconds or so (only on champions, else it'd kill Vayne jg) Here's a comparison, perhaps the fairest one - Vi.

Vi has 4 - 10% scaling on 35% Bonus AD of your max life every 3 auto's, breaking 20% armor and granting 30 - 50% attack speed.

Vayne has 20 - 60 + 4 - 8% of your max life every 3 auto's.

Clearly, true damage is better than Armor Break (1v1). Vayne is much stronger early game, because of the 20 base damage, and assuming you have 700 life, 28 more, adding up to 48 true damage. Still not as strong as Irelia's, I might add. But Vayne has no counter (besides Randuins and Frozen Heart, actually).

Vi has less damage, 28 assuming 700 life, not even counting armor. Additional 30% attack speed is nice, but (probably) not enough ( it might actually be).

Garen's just got too much execute against squishies. His ult will kill enemy villain if they're at half health.

WarlockLaw1 votes

For what its worth Garen's ult is forecasted on whom it will deal true damage to, though its damage is pretty high.

I don't think Vayne should have to wait any amount of time to reproc her silver bolts, in order to do that it would need its damage buffed, and i don't think % max health true damage should go over 10%. Also jungle Vayne was killed with the ranged sated devour nerf.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

For what its worth Garen's ult is forecasted on whom it will deal true damage to, though its damage is pretty high.

I don't think Vayne should have to wait any amount of time to reproc her silver bolts, in order to do that it would need its damage buffed, and i don't think % max health true damage should go over 10%. Also jungle Vayne was killed with the ranged sated devour nerf.

Jungle Vayne was viable before Dev. It's also fine with Warrior, she can kite the camps, and has percent life damage, and also a stun.

What I thought you said was this, correct me if I'm wrong: After 3 auto's, every attack should apply silver bolts.

Y'know what? I say yes!

But Silver Bolts would have to be heavily nerfed, after all, Vayne doesn't need it to kill tanks - she's got BoRK. Maybe just flat true damage, say, 10/15/20/25/30?

WarlockLaw1 votes

Imo Vayne is % max health true damage, so whatever changes she does get I hope this remains in her kit. And no i was only saying that she shouldn't have a period of time where you can't reapply silver bolt stacks.

As for jungle Vayne, I will only say it's been viable during the period of time where sated worked for ranged junglers. Now it's nothing more than any other off-meta, off-build, bad/unviable but can work if you are good enough/the stars align perfectly.

And no, Vayne doesn't care for warrior anymore than Fiddle cares for Runeglaive, sure it gives stats that they can use, but their gold is best spent elsewhere.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

Imo Vayne is % max health true damage, so whatever changes she does get I hope this remains in her kit. And no i was only saying that she shouldn't have a period of time where you can't reapply silver bolt stacks.

As for jungle Vayne, I will only say it's been viable during the period of time where sated worked for ranged junglers. Now it's nothing more than any other off-meta, off-build, bad/unviable but can work if you are good enough/the stars align perfectly.

And no, Vayne doesn't care for warrior anymore than Fiddle cares for Runeglaive, sure it gives stats that they can use, but their gold is best spent elsewhere.

Clearly you have not spent enough time experimenting with ranged junglers. Vayne works fine, her problem's not in the jungle, it's that she has weak early ganking. She doesn't have too good damage, and her CC only works if they are positioned right. Also, she is squishy, so she may be bursted by her target.

WarlockLaw1 votes

I had a friend running Vayne jungle before Sated was even dropped on the pbe, he usually did well when he wasn't dodged for it. I'm still not considering it a good pick because the early clears aren't that fast and a lot of assassins can easily kill her during invades. Also it lends itself to low tank team comps which are usually bad due to the current position for tanks are jungle and support

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

I had a friend running Vayne jungle before Sated was even dropped on the pbe, he usually did well when he wasn't dodged for it. I'm still not considering it a good pick because the early clears aren't that fast and a lot of assassins can easily kill her during invades. Also it lends itself to low tank team comps which are usually bad due to the current position for tanks are jungle and support

You can have a tank going top, but that means you'll usually be ganking mid/bot, until you get enough damage. I recommend tank supports, because it lets top and jungle build damage.

Weiner the Pooh1 votes

Just fyi fioras base damage on her passive is pretty shitty and requires her to build heavy ad for it to be noticeable, this "drain tank" Fiora you refer to would get rofled by full ad Fiora or full ad anyone, and her passive does have counterplay btw, you see exactly where it is for one and it can be qss'd, and if shes too close it wont proc.

EviL GameZ

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