Many will disagree with me, but Zhonya is now a much better purchase

YumaS2Astral·May 4, 2016·88 votes·3,790 views

Yes, it lost AP. Yes, its active has a higher cooldown. However, the fact that not only it has a lower price, but also a better build path - I can buy a Seeker's Armguard and then another amplifying tome (which I can then upgrade to a Fiendish Codex, making the final combine cost even lower), which helps especially if I am behind - means that this item is much less awkward to buy. No longer, when behind, I will have to farm and hope that I can get 1250 gold for the NLR then spend another thousand gold just to complete this item. Did I mention that it has cooldown reduction now, too?

While one can argue that the nerfs to the AP amount and the higher cooldown were unecessary changes, this item is, in general, in a better state than before. It is not the perfect solution to the lack of itemization for AP mages against AD assassins, but it is better than before.

67 Comments

VekknaMay 4, 201618 votes

Remember when it had 120 AP for 3200 gold and a 500g combine? It's not better than then.

YumaS2AstralMay 4, 20165 votes

{quoted}

Remember when it had 120 AP for 3200 gold and a 500g combine? It's not better than then.

Well, it is not better than it, but it is better than costing 3500 gold and having a 1050 gold combine, even though it had more AP.

RossendaleMay 4, 201641 votes

{quoted}

Remember when it had 120 AP for 3200 gold and a 500g combine? It's not better than then.

I remember that. I also remember that it was so fucking good it was core on basically every AP midlaner with the defensive active being a cherry on the top.

Which is funny because mage players are complaining about Maw for the exact same reasons.

YumaS2AstralMay 4, 201612 votes

{quoted}

I remember that. I also remember that it was so fucking good it was core on basically every AP midlaner with the defensive active being a cherry on the top.

Which is funny because mage players are complaining about Maw for the exact same reasons.

There weren't many big AP items back then. Other than it and Rabadon, we only had Deathfire Grasp, and this item was lacking in synergy on many AP champions (burst mages could take advantage of it, but DPS mages could not). I feel that's one of the reasons why every mage purchased Zhonya.

Nowadays we have item 3116 item 3285 item 3027 item 3165 as well as many 80 AP items like item 3151 item 3135 and the new Hextech items.

Remember when Liandry only had 50 AP? Or when Rylai only had 80 AP, Morellonomicon only had 75 AP, and there was a real lack of AP items with interesting effects that were viable on most mages.

XeroKimoMay 4, 20161 votes

I remember when liandry's %hp was 3% over 2% and had 60 ap which made any mage able to kill tank at ease like an ADC, now it's better again thanks to the added ap, tho it's still only that good of an item on certain mages in comparison to before

VekknaMay 4, 201619 votes

Full disclosure: I don't have a horse in the Zhonya's race because I hate the item and have rarely played champs that required it as a core item (aside from Lissandra).

The issue with Maw, imo, is not that it's powerful but that it's power is entirely passive. Zhonya's has a skill element that is virtually absent altogether from Maw. Maw procs when you're in a cc, when you're out of position, and when you would be assassinated without time to react. In other words, it passively requires less skill from the AD and more skill from the AP.

Zhonya's doesn't do that. If you're caught out, and use Zhonya's, you'll probably die anyway. If you're cc'd you can't use the active. If you're assassinated before you can hit the button, you die anyway. Outside of full-swing teamfights or inherent kit synergy (eg Fiddles, Morg, Heimer, etc), Zhonya's isn't a great "oh crap" button to compensate for mistakes.

In general, Maw gives a much larger EHP advantage than Zhonya's due to the MR + Shield + LifeSteal + Pen. Maw is just a vastly superior dueling item.

tooomineMay 5, 20164 votes

this comment needs WAAAAY more visibility, man. You're dead on.

NinjaFiferMay 5, 201611 votes

Don't forget that Zhonya's makes you untargetable, so unless you timed it perfectly, the enemy still has the spell ready to go for when you pop back out. Maw gives a shield that you have to beat through, wasting spellcasts and damage potential.

Mai Waifu IreliaMay 5, 20161 votes

Case in point, fakers last hourglass in their final dragon fight that ended the game earlier. iirc he had to hourglass as soon as leblanc Q'd to avoid the combo and then the other team (don't remember which match) moved up on top of him while he was in stasis, prep alistar pulverize gg Though I do agree with OP, it does feel better in terms of build path compared to what it was recently.

PDE5 InhibMay 5, 20161 votes

I also remember infinity edge being core on basically every ADC. Nerfs?

MazariamontiMay 4, 20167 votes

Lol yeah, you can't increase the price then act like its a buff when you lower the price back down to where it was before, while also nerfing every other aspect of the item, all in exchange for a measly 10% cdr.

junglerboy16May 4, 20164 votes

Because then it was hands down the strongest item in existence. It needed to be nerfed because it strangled build options (only a lunatic wouldn't buy the strongest offense, defense, and utility all wrapped into one item).

So they nerfed it—by making it incredibly expensive without fixing the root flaws—leaving mages in the lurch.

Now you can weigh the advantages (super strong defense+utility in a rush item) vs the cons (low AP and late game slot efficiency). This is what Zhonya's should have been ever since the removed Zhonya's Ring.

chipndip1May 5, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Remember when it had 120 AP for 3200 gold and a 500g combine? It's not better than then.

Wasn't it EXTREMELY broken back then though? I remember a ton of people complaining about the item back then.

SirsirMay 5, 20161 votes

It really is because now you aren't forced to build it 1200g at a time

Trias000May 5, 20163 votes

Large Rod was 1600g back then

tainteddazeMay 5, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Remember when it had 120 AP for 3200 gold and a 500g combine? It's not better than then.

i remember when it was called zhoynas ring. Those were the days before they spit the item into 2. Man I miss those games.

ÇhåryzårdMay 4, 201612 votes

Maybe at first but later in the game when Zed can ult you multiple times before the cooldown is up it isn't as good anymore.

YumaS2AstralMay 4, 20169 votes

{quoted}

Maybe at first but later in the game when Zed can ult you multiple times before the cooldown is up it isn't as good anymore.

Fun fact: Before, with enough cooldown reduction, Zed could already ult you before the cooldown from Zhonya was up.

HawkefireMay 4, 201613 votes

Except now it is a guarantee. The window of vulnerability is also much higher.

Jungle Lux GodMay 4, 20162 votes

You can also stay away from Zed until your Zhonya's cooldown comes up, so it's not completely a guarantee.

HawkefireMay 5, 20164 votes

That is actually my point.

Now I have to stay away longer and earlier than I would have had to before.

GayFluffyUnicornMay 5, 20161 votes

I cri evritim. mages now actually have to THINK about where to stand and what to do and not blindly spam every ability to shred anyone in their path and just zhonya out of danger.

HawkefireMay 5, 20161 votes

Bullshit. Mages, especially of the immobile category have always been reliant on proper positioning to survive.

Also, this talk of blindly spamming abilities is archaic. Mages haven't been able to blindly spam abilities for a good while now, even more so with the item changes.

Iridescent PoroMay 5, 20161 votes

Except you can get it earlier (vie decreased overall cost) so for early to mid game you have more overall zhonyas uses than you did before.

ElindiirMay 5, 20162 votes

MY thoughts on this though is that NOBODY uses Zhonya's OR Zed ult on cooldown... They are both abilities that require the right opportunity to use them, unlike say, Annie or Veigar, who will use their ults anytime they are in range and are off CD.

GayFluffyUnicornMay 5, 20161 votes

So i'm nobody, k. There are enough situations where i just when i get back to lane all in the enemy laner with ult. As far as i know where the enemy jungler is ofc.

QuephaMay 4, 20169 votes

It's astonishing to me that anyone thought this was a nerf.

stealthfox94May 4, 20162 votes

According to some people Ziggs and Velkoz got nerfed. People are dumb.

EvewynnMay 4, 20162 votes

I'm 95% sure that no one ever thought that.

EvewynnMay 4, 20164 votes

The only thing people don't like is the active cool down increase

Guy Fox TeemoMay 4, 20163 votes

IT would be to strong if it was slower, for such a good build path and cost.

RocketRelmMay 5, 20161 votes

I'm going to be blunt, I remember making a thread similar to this way back when the Zhoynas item was brought up. I got down voted to hell and told "10 AP > 10% cdr". Like, not even exaggerating or presuming anything, that was the literal stated reasoning.

ZoeeeeMay 4, 20163 votes

I'm not sure why they increased the active cool down when it was a healthy answer to Zed ult. A Zed with 10% CDR can now ult you at level 6 then ult you again before your cd is up again.

Zed needs a full rework now that his ult is almost garen-teed to land with no counter play.

NyhverMay 4, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Crusty Juggler,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4927uZH5,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2016-05-04T20:25:16.614+0000)

I'm not sure why they increased the active cool down when it was a healthy answer to Zed ult. A Zed with 10% CDR can now ult you at level 6 then ult you again before your cd is up again.

They wanted to make it better but 'balance' it, so it appears they traded things around instead of just giving only numerical buffs.

Zed needs a full rework now that his ult is almost garen-teed to land with no counter play.

You can still dodge his abilities the same as always, but, yes, he'll be ridiculous late game if he isn't beaten by current mid picks. Pre-mage patch Zed primarily relied on using 'w' and 'r' as gap closers, to avoid CC, damage and essentially shadow dance with his target, now his death mark actually will deal a lot of damage so his kill ability is extremely high in the right circumstance.

They could just shift power out of his death mark to his Q/E, even make it a scaling thing where they scale better at rank 4/5 or something, or once he hits a certain level.

ZoeeeeMay 4, 20163 votes

{quoted}

They wanted to make it better but 'balance' it, so it appears they traded things around instead of just giving only numerical buffs.

You can still dodge his abilities the same as always, but, yes, he'll be ridiculous late game if he isn't beaten by current mid picks. Pre-mage patch Zed primarily relied on using 'w' and 'r' as gap closers, to avoid CC, damage and essentially shadow dance with his target, now his death mark actually will deal a lot of damage so his kill ability is extremely high in the right circumstance.

They could just shift power out of his death mark to his Q/E, even make it a scaling thing where they scale better at rank 4/5 or something, or once he hits a certain level.

I toyed with the idea of a reworked passive, and moving its execute to his ult, and removing the death mark damage. So his ult gives more %dmg but is no longer a free win ability. Zed would have to use positioning, and shadow dashes to outplay as an ASSASSIN.

Right now Zed ult is just a stat check on how much armor you have, and if he can land his spells.

GayFluffyUnicornMay 5, 20162 votes

I love these kind of comments from people with barely 10 games on Zed (bad games on top of that). He already needs positioning to outplay. Ofc not against the generic bronze 3 because they just melee farm as mage in lane and cry about getting a full combo to the face.

jdizzle367May 4, 20162 votes

Its really hard to dodge 2 fast projectiles at once from point blank range while slowed if you have no dashes.

Crokinole AceMay 5, 20161 votes

So what are you doing with your ult while his is down? Zed is really, really vulnerable without his ult available.

HelmightMay 4, 20162 votes

Thank you for this post. I'm of the same opinion that Zhonya's Hourglass is in a much better spot now. It kinda fills the same role for mages that Maw of Malmortius does for assassins/AD champions. The active is long, but it's a damn strong active as-is. I just feel as though we've gotten spoiled always having it available and never really stopped to think how powerful it really is.

Sure, it lost AP, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make for the sake of being able to get this baby earlier.

WinBoatMay 4, 20162 votes

I think the changes to items overall are not too bad.

I mean anything negative about the Zhonya's change is just not being thought through. Spirit Visage and MR items got a nerf too. So while Zhonya's lost AP, Spirit Visage lost HP, and MR. So I think it works out. The tanks will be killed just a tad bit faster now, but still be annoying of course.

TTK DreadnoughtMay 5, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Best EV3R NA,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4927uZH5,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-05-04T19:39:05.744+0000)

I think the changes to items overall are not too bad.

I mean anything negative about the Zhonya's change is just not being thought through. Spirit Visage and MR items got a nerf too. So while Zhonya's lost AP, Spirit Visage lost HP, and MR. So I think it works out. The tanks will be killed just a tad bit faster now, but still be annoying of course.

almost correct there. Spirit visage had MR reduction but had its healing passive increased. and Banshee is the one with the health reduction. this was to separate their roles more

BisaknospMay 5, 20162 votes

the active cd needs to be lower

MrLlamaWaffleMay 4, 20161 votes

indirect fiddle buff, im down

TotalJerkMay 4, 20161 votes

Naw, man this was totally a nerf on a champion with high base numbers like Fiddle! It's not like people prioritized magic pen and semi defensiveness over raw AP, or something.

MrLlamaWaffleMay 4, 20161 votes

uh no. Fiddle builds hourglass as his first large item, every single time, doesn't matter the team comp, it's a necessity. It cost less now so he can build it sooner, yes please. Of course fiddle has many problems and his passive change hurt his damage a bit but meh

PoskeMay 4, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Yes, it lost AP. Yes, its active has a higher cooldown. However, the fact that not only it has a lower price, but also a better build path - I can buy a Seeker's Armguard and then another amplifying tome (which I can then upgrade to a Fiendish Codex, making the final combine cost even lower), which helps especially if I am behind - means that this item is much less awkward to buy. No longer, when behind, I will have to farm and hope that I can get 1250 gold for the NLR then spend another thousand gold just to complete this item. Did I mention that it has cooldown reduction now, too?

While one can argue that the nerfs to the AP amount and the higher cooldown were unecessary changes, this item is, in general, in a better state than before. It is not the perfect solution to the lack of itemization for AP mages against AD assassins, but it is better than before.

It depends on champion

Its worse on katarina now because idgaf about cdr

YumaS2AstralMay 4, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sub HeroCro,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4927uZH5,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2016-05-04T19:49:10.198+0000)

It depends on champion

Its worse on katarina now because idgaf about cdr

It is worse due to the loss of AP. However, Katarina does not completely dislike having cooldown reduction. Her passive makes purchasing dedicated cooldown reduction items unecessary, but it is still welcome if she is able to afford it, especially because she is not always guaranteed to activate the passive. And thanks to Zhonya having CDR, she is always guaranteed to get at least 10% cooldown reduction. This makes her do things such as reliably poke the enemy with Q or having her Shunpo avaliable more times to escape, without relying on her passive.

JMoormannMay 4, 20161 votes

The problem with Zhonya's is that it has some clear abuse cases. It's intended to prevent being focused in teamfights and as defensive item in AD matchups.

However, it has also has a situational but very powerful function as engage enabler. Lissandra, Azir, TF and maybr a couplr of others can jump straight in the middle of the enemy team. There is a huge difference in power between the average defensive use and the sitiational offensive engage use, which means it can never be balanced around both of them.

KrinuMay 6, 20161 votes

If they really wanted to make it not a dual-purpose item, they'd make the special effect something on the order of "puts you in stasis for X seconds, rendering you untargetable and preventing all damage dealt and taken."