riot really likes garens passive
so far it is on an item, a mastery, and a drake buff.
just an observation. theyve been putting it into more and more parts of the game.
38 Comments
Snowball4u1 votesAnd its on another champion 
Critmaster Garen1 votesAnd its on another champion
i mean. thats still kinda different for the aura effect and its active all the time.
but warmogs passive, and ocean drake are almost 1:1 the same.
Buff Jax please1 votesIts on red buff too.
Critmaster Garen1 votes[{quoted}](name=Buff Jax please,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=47w5jLsB,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-09-26T21:18:06.007+0000)
Its on red buff too.
wow, thats right actually. forgot about red buff.
Penns1 votesWell... Its basically just health reg.
PermabannedGaren1 votesYeah it's weird. Let's get rid of it and give him one that is less shit.
Critmaster Garen1 votesYeah it's weird. Let's get rid of it and give him one that is less shit.
what would you recommend?
i mean apart from the fact that its pretty weak early right now, he kinda needs it to not get shiton in lane. i guess the main reason its there is that its kindof a safety net for him.
the only thing i could see is make the regeneration effect a lot stronger, but have it scale with missing health instead of straight maximum health. and some form of mechanic that lets him benefit from it during fights. but i dont know what this trigger would be without them just removing some other part of his kit like the damage reduction or resistance bonus.
PermabannedGaren1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=47w5jLsB,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2016-09-26T21:24:13.309+0000)
what would you recommend?
i mean apart from the fact that its pretty weak early right now, he kinda needs it to not get shiton in lane. i guess the main reason its there is that its kindof a safety net for him.
the only thing i could see is make the regeneration effect a lot stronger, but have it scale with missing health instead of straight maximum health. and some form of mechanic that lets him benefit from it during fights. but i dont know what this trigger would be without them just removing some other part of his kit like the damage reduction or resistance bonus.
My problem with it is that it is literally Mundo's passive, only it only works out of combat (but I guess it gives him more health than Mundo's passive does). It's literally the same passive as another juggernaut's, but sort of worse.
He does need sustain, but I'd prefer to move that to his Q or E to reward him for sticking to a target rather than giving him some weird passive that promotes hit and run tactics on a champion as slow and unwieldy as Garen.
As for what his new passive could be, don't know.
Critmaster Garen1 votesMy problem with it is that it is literally Mundo's passive, only it only works out of combat (but I guess it gives him more health than Mundo's passive does). It's literally the same passive as another juggernaut's, but sort of worse.
He does need sustain, but I'd prefer to move that to his Q or E to reward him for sticking to a target rather than giving him some weird passive that promotes hit and run tactics on a champion as slow and unwieldy as Garen.
As for what his new passive could be, don't know.
ive thought about in combat sustain before aswell. problem is that he would get absolutely obliterated by top laners who can kite and poke him.
worse than it is now. because against these types of champions he wouldnt have any sustain at all.
it would really need to be some sort of ability that allows him to trigger his current passive in combat for a short time. so he can profit outside of fights aswell, when he has to fall back and play passive.
they could add to his w that his passive cant be deactivated while his w is active. but then theyd have to change the general scaling so it wouldnt get obscene lategame.
PermabannedGaren1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=47w5jLsB,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-26T21:33:00.572+0000)
ive thought about in combat sustain before aswell. problem is that he would get absolutely obliterated by top laners who can kite and poke him.
This already happens.
worse than it is now. because against these types of champions he wouldnt have any sustain at all.
He'd have more if it worked on minions.
it would really need to be some sort of ability that allows him to trigger his current passive in combat for a short time. so he can profit outside of fights aswell, when he has to fall back and play passive.
The ability to use it in-combat is interesting, but this is still stepping on Mundo's identity.
they could add to his w that his passive cant be deactivated while his w is active. but then theyd have to change the general scaling so it wouldnt get obscene lategame.
It still wouldn't be obscene late game tbh, because he would still be a low damage and low mobility champion.
Garen won't be fine until there is a meaningful reason to pick him over Darius.
Critmaster Garen1 votesThis already happens.
He'd have more if it worked on minions.
The ability to use it in-combat is interesting, but this is still stepping on Mundo's identity.
It still wouldn't be obscene late game tbh, because he would still be a low damage and low mobility champion.
Garen won't be fine until there is a meaningful reason to pick him over Darius.
i mean. i think it could kinda work if they made the passive scale with % missing health, and if it couldnt be deactivated while his w is active.
that would give him some outplay potential in lane and to answer poke, if he went in to cs and reacted correctly by hitting his w in a timely manner when his opponent pokes.
he would have to manage the cooldown, that he mostly uses it when semi low on health, to get more out of the effect.
not sure.
PermabannedGaren1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=47w5jLsB,comment-id=000300000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-26T21:42:24.967+0000)
i mean. i think it could kinda work if they made the passive scale with % missing health, and if it couldnt be deactivated while his w is active.
that would give him some outplay potential in lane and to answer poke, if he went in to cs and reacted correctly by hitting his w in a timely manner when his opponent pokes.
he would have to manage the cooldown, that he mostly uses it when semi low on health, to get more out of the effect.
not sure.
Scaling with missing health is a pretty healthy mechanic that has served Darius and Illaoi well, but as I said my main issue is that this is just reinforcing Garen as a sort of worse Mundo (kit-wise, Mundo is bad due to his numbers). Giving him in-combat sustain is a step in the right direction, but he needs more IMO to make him a truly good champion kit.
As I've said in other threads, I'd like for Riot to emphasize Garen's identity as a duelist/assassin juggernaut who deals great damage in his small threat radius if he gets on someone. He'd need in-combat sustain to do this, and the Villain mechanic would have to go.
SP Dodgecity1 votesI understand why his passive is needed early game or in the laning phase, but mid-late game it's straight broken. He builds tank, with some damaging items, he's able to run around and do pretty much whatever he wants, then goes into jungle for a few seconds and comes out with full HP. It eliminates his need that most of us have to go back to base when we're super low. Now if you're a healer or have life steal thats different. With life steal you have to kill something nearby to get it back and it costs you an item slot. With healers it costs them mana and with additional items that becomes less of a problem but it still has a cost. Garens passive is honestly just a free-by they throw newer players so they have someone easy to play thats still semi strong
Critmaster Garen1 votes[{quoted}](name=SP Dodgecity,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=47w5jLsB,comment-id=000300000001,timestamp=2016-09-26T21:33:46.367+0000)
I understand why his passive is needed early game or in the laning phase, but mid-late game it's straight broken. He builds tank, with some damaging items, he's able to run around and do pretty much whatever he wants, then goes into jungle for a few seconds and comes out with full HP. It eliminates his need that most of us have to go back to base when we're super low. Now if you're a healer or have life steal thats different. With life steal you have to kill something nearby to get it back and it costs you an item slot. With healers it costs them mana and with additional items that becomes less of a problem but it still has a cost. Garens passive is honestly just a free-by they throw newer players so they have someone easy to play thats still semi strong
its not broken mid to lategame. not any more broken than warmogs passive.
all it does really is the same as a lifesteal item on any carry. after a fight they clear a jungle camp or heal up on a minion wave while pushing and arrive at the enemy turret at full health.
it can be useful, but youre overestimating the effect.
SP Dodgecity1 votesNot when a garen tank builds 
and 
The affect is more than doubled. He gets his life back nearly 3X's as fast.
Now a Healer and an ADC are traditionally squishier champs, they need those affects to help them not get deleted during fights. Garen is a straight tank, and if warmogs already gives the buff, then Tanks should go to it often. But Garen being able to heal himself just by disengaging for a few seconds is ridiculous.
Tanks shouldn't be able to heal themselves that much, thats the entire point of having a support, or building lifesteal or spell vamp. Tanks are supposed to be supported by the team and thats how they live through the fight or die trying to give a team an advantage.
I just feel like its broken that a tank has an execute, mobility, a silence, and AOE damage source constantly, no cost to energy or mana, and can then heal himself entirely after diving non stop. To me a tank shouldn't have ALL of those things. Maybe some but not all of them.
Critmaster Garen1 votes[{quoted}](name=SP Dodgecity,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=47w5jLsB,comment-id=00030000000100000000,timestamp=2016-09-26T21:44:33.784+0000)
Not when a garen tank builds
The affect is more than doubled. He gets his life back nearly 3X's as fast.
Now a Healer and an ADC are traditionally squishier champs, they need those affects to help them not get deleted during fights. Garen is a straight tank, and if warmogs already gives the buff, then Tanks should go to it often. But Garen being able to heal himself just by disengaging for a few seconds is ridiculous.
Tanks shouldn't be able to heal themselves that much, thats the entire point of having a support, or building lifesteal or spell vamp. Tanks are supposed to be supported by the team and thats how they live through the fight or die trying to give a team an advantage.
I just feel like its broken that a tank has an execute, mobility, a silence, and AOE damage source constantly, no cost to energy or mana, and can then heal himself entirely after diving non stop. To me a tank shouldn't have ALL of those things. Maybe some but not all of them.
warmogs kicks in after 8 seconds. by that time garens own passive has regenerated a lot more.
still, while its useful in siege scenarios, its not that powerful when it comes to roams and pushes after a fight. at least not really more powerful than the other sources of out of combat sustain. im not saying its not useful, but i think youre reading too much into it.
id trade his passive for 
passive any day tbh. that shit is godlike.
SP Dodgecity1 votesThats true, volibears passive is insane haha. I'm just saying that I understand the early game application but with the right build it gets a little ridiculous.
Off question though, does add more regen to voli's passive?
Critmaster Garen1 votes[{quoted}](name=SP Dodgecity,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=47w5jLsB,comment-id=00030000000100000000,timestamp=2016-09-26T21:44:33.784+0000)
Not when a garen tank builds
The affect is more than doubled. He gets his life back nearly 3X's as fast.
Now a Healer and an ADC are traditionally squishier champs, they need those affects to help them not get deleted during fights. Garen is a straight tank, and if warmogs already gives the buff, then Tanks should go to it often. But Garen being able to heal himself just by disengaging for a few seconds is ridiculous.
Tanks shouldn't be able to heal themselves that much, thats the entire point of having a support, or building lifesteal or spell vamp. Tanks are supposed to be supported by the team and thats how they live through the fight or die trying to give a team an advantage.
I just feel like its broken that a tank has an execute, mobility, a silence, and AOE damage source constantly, no cost to energy or mana, and can then heal himself entirely after diving non stop. To me a tank shouldn't have ALL of those things. Maybe some but not all of them.
also, pls stop calling garen a tank.
high amounts of sustain isnt unusual for a juggernaut. the main difference is, that they usually have this sustain available in combat.
even 
with his shield mechanic, which is essentially a sustain mechanic.
PermabannedGaren1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=47w5jLsB,comment-id=000300000001000000000001,timestamp=2016-09-26T21:57:13.300+0000)
also, pls stop calling garen a tank.
high amounts of sustain isnt unusual for a juggernaut. the main difference is, that they usually have this sustain available in combat.
even
Mordekaiser also has actual health sustain with his W and his R. He's actually the hardest juggernaut to kill if itemized defensively.
And yeah, that's basically the issue. Juggernauts are meant to be big badasses up close in team fights to allow them to carry, and have sustain tools in combat to help them with that.
Garen has nothing of the sort.
SP Dodgecity1 votesLmao dude juggernaut is a word made for overpowered tanks XD
Just because you give it a name doesn't make it ok.
Lets talk balance. A character, with high damage output, high defense, good mobility and cc, is overpowered. What weakness do they have?
Mundo, weakness? Grevious wounds, cc, and armor pen/magic pen can wither him down pretty good. Which means the support, the adc, and the apc have to build specifically or pick a champ to counter one champion. Thats not balanced.
Darius, weakness? Armor pen/magic pen again, grevious wounds again for healing, cc again. So again. 3 champions at the very least have to build or have to counter pick for 1 champ.
Volibear, same. (A throw, a slow, speed boost, and damage boost)
Trundle, same. (A slow, a speed boost, damage boost and health boost.
Illaoi, same. (A slow, an engage, lots of self healing during combat, and an ability that can possibly do 40% of if you don't dodge or run/engage)
Yorick, same. (Yep again cc, damage boots, mobility, and higher damage scaling.)
Again just because you give a broken system a name doesn't mean its balanced or right haha.
Lets take away Vaynes range, give her 2000 more health and keep all the damage. Thats fair? To you that would be balanced?
PermabannedGaren1 votes[{quoted}](name=SP Dodgecity,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=47w5jLsB,comment-id=0003000000010000000000010001,timestamp=2016-09-26T22:33:54.480+0000)
Lmao dude juggernaut is a word made for overpowered tanks XD
Nah, you're just not smart enough to understand the difference.
Just because you give it a name doesn't make it ok.
It is okay. All the juggernauts are either bad to mediocre or, in the case of Darius and Illaoi, pretty good. None are OP right now.
Lets talk balance. A character, with high damage output, high defense, good mobility and cc, is overpowered. What weakness do they have?
Juggernauts only have the first two.
Even Darius, who has more CC than most juggernauts, doesn't have as much CC as a tank like Zac. Or even some divers like Vi.
Mundo, weakness? Grevious wounds, cc, and armor pen/magic pen can wither him down pretty good. Which means the support, the adc, and the apc have to build specifically or pick a champ to counter one champion. Thats not balanced.
Every team should have crowd control and penetration. This isn't something teams have to go out of their way for.
Do you not typically buy armour penetration on ADCs?
And grievous wounds is a counter stat for champions like Mundo. It also counters ADCs, who have the same weaknesses, only swap armour pen/magic pen with AD/AP.
Your argument is nonsensical. "Why should builds have to take into account the enemy team's champions wtf this is bullshit" lol, how clownish.
Darius, weakness? Armor pen/magic pen again, grevious wounds again for healing, cc again. So again. 3 champions at the very least have to build or have to counter pick for 1 champ.
Lets take away Vaynes range, give her 2000 more health and keep all the damage. Thats fair? To you that would be balanced?
There is no juggernaut that has Vayne's single target DPS, not even Yorick, who I suspect probably has the best of his class.
SP Dodgecity1 votesJuggernauts only have the first two. Even Darius, who has more CC than most juggernauts, doesn't have as much CC as a tank like Zac. Or even some divers like Vi.
You're saying only darius has a speed boost??? What are you talking about Every single one of the examples you used have an ability or passive that increases mobility except maybe Illaoi I can't quite remember for her.
You're right every team team should have a support, armor pen/magic pen, etc. You're absolutely right, support to keep the tank alive, armor pen/magic pen to kill tanks. Juggernauts require all of it. I'm saying that yes a team should have it to fight collectively the other team, but a team shouldn't need all of that to kill a single person. The point of that is a "juggernaut"/OP tank is that a juggernaut has the aspects of a tank, with enough damage to take out priority targets on their own, with self regeneration. They hit hard, they're tough as nails, and they heal more than a support ever could in that amount of time (maybe soraka could combo her ult with some healing to match mundo and voli and garens regen. )
Juggernaut and Tank, really the only difference is how much damage they do. Tanks do some, juggernauts do alot more. Some juggernauts come be built. For example, I can somehow do so much damage as worwick but I build primarily tank items. Warwick isn't a juggernaut, he isn't a tank either, but somehow I can build one maybe two offensive items and then 4 tank items and I can walk all over anyone I want, I can still take out an adc 1v1.
PermabannedGaren2 votes[{quoted}](name=SP Dodgecity,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=47w5jLsB,comment-id=000300000001000000000001000100000000,timestamp=2016-09-27T02:58:53.191+0000)
You're saying only darius has a speed boost??? What are you talking about Every single one of the examples you used have an ability or passive that increases mobility except maybe Illaoi I can't quite remember for her.
No, in fact Darius doesn't have a speed boost at all. Not sure where you got that. Though speed boosts aren't good mobility. Most non-juggernaut fighters have better.
You're right every team team should have a support, armor pen/magic pen, etc. You're absolutely right, support to keep the tank alive, armor pen/magic pen to kill tanks. Juggernauts require all of it. I'm saying that yes a team should have it to fight collectively the other team, but a team shouldn't need all of that to kill a single person. The point of that is a "juggernaut"/OP tank is that a juggernaut has the aspects of a tank, with enough damage to take out priority targets on their own, with self regeneration. They hit hard, they're tough as nails, and they heal more than a support ever could in that amount of time (maybe soraka could combo her ult with some healing to match mundo and voli and garens regen. )
Your argument is incredibly stupid.
"Well yeah, all teams should have CC, penetration, and the ability to itemize for grievous wounds b-b-but juggernauts are weak to all three so they're OP!"
Ridiculous. Also no, juggernauts and tanks are very distinct. Juggernauts do more damage, but are less mobile than many (Gragas, Sejuani, Amumu, and Zac have mobility tools to reach the back line far more readily than any juggernaut). Tanks also tend to be a bit tankier, and have much more utility.
Shen for example has a slow, a zone for his team where he and his allies are immune to auto attacks, an AOE taunt, and a global teleport that gives an ally a shield.
Darius has his W for a slow, and his E which is an AOE pull into a brief slow.
See the difference?
Juggernaut and Tank, really the only difference is how much damage they do. Tanks do some, juggernauts do alot more. Some juggernauts come be built. For example, I can somehow do so much damage as worwick but I build primarily tank items. Warwick isn't a juggernaut, he isn't a tank either, but somehow I can build one maybe two offensive items and then 4 tank items and I can walk all over anyone I want, I can still take out an adc 1v1.
Warwick is:
A. Gonna be reworked soon
B. Possessing of a point and click gap closer, so of course he isn't a juggernat.
C. A diver, he's a damage threat to the ADC who jumps on them and kicks their ass.
Tanks also
Big Lincoln1 votesgaren is a juggernaut not a tank
and unlike the other juggernauts Garen has no in-fight healing to keep him alive
so it's completely fine that he has great out-of-combat sustain to make up for it.
oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votesall champs have some form of health regen
Critmaster Garen1 votes[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=47w5jLsB,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-09-26T21:44:35.536+0000)
all champs have some form of health regen
i meant % health out of combat sustain specifically. though the perseverence mastery doesnt fall into that category i guess.
oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=47w5jLsB,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2016-09-26T21:45:43.485+0000)
i meant % health out of combat sustain specifically. though the perseverence mastery doesnt fall into that category i guess.
part of why garen is considered a counter to riven is he has a silence that stops her combo and damage dealing... he can out sustain her cuz her base sustain is trash and he gets free armor and he is resource-less as well.
Critmaster Garen1 votes[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=47w5jLsB,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2016-09-26T21:48:52.354+0000)
part of why garen is considered a counter to riven is he has a silence that stops her combo and damage dealing... he can out sustain her cuz her base sustain is trash and he gets free armor and he is resource-less as well.
a bad garen counters a bad riven.
between a good garen and a good riven, the matchup is entirely skill based. especially since they cut the silence down to 1.5s
oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=47w5jLsB,comment-id=0004000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-26T21:50:24.066+0000)
a bad garen counters a bad riven.
between a good garen and a good riven, the matchup is entirely skill based. especially since they cut the silence down to 1.5s
i dont even use garen anymore ( and i love my garen ) i use 
to counter riven
PermabannedGaren1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=47w5jLsB,comment-id=0004000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-26T21:50:24.066+0000)
a bad garen counters a bad riven.
between a good garen and a good riven, the matchup is entirely skill based. especially since they cut the silence down to 1.5s
I guess Box Box isn't a good Riven, because he thinks Garen is the single hardest lane match-up Riven has.
Critmaster Garen1 votesI guess Box Box isn't a good Riven, because he thinks Garen is the single hardest lane match-up Riven has.
a good riven can e out of garens q and absorb the damage, she can interrupt his animations with her w and knockup and kite him around.
its a skill based matchup. it might be her most difficult, but maybe that says a lot about riven, if her most difficult lane matchup between 2 competent players is even.
garen being a straight up counter was true when garens q could still silence for a full 2.5 s if maxed, but not anymore.
PermabannedGaren1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=47w5jLsB,comment-id=000400000000000000010000,timestamp=2016-09-26T22:57:00.414+0000)
a good riven can e out of garens q and absorb the damage, she can interrupt his animations with her w and knockup and kite him around.
A good Garen can auto Riven instead of Q'ing her (or use it as a reset), baiting out the E or making her take free damage, use his W to blunt her damage, and Q to interrupt her attempt at kiting, which is a laughable notion by the way. Garen's Q outranges any of Riven's ability threat radii. He also runs grasp, which is by a fair margin the strongest of the masteries early on.
its a skill based matchup. it might be her most difficult, but maybe that says a lot about riven, if her most difficult lane matchup between 2 competent players is even.
Nah, now you're twisting his words into bullshit to suit your argument.
Box Box is probably better at playing Garen than you are, much less Riven, and he says Garen is a very rough match-up in lane (but he doesn't mind it because Garen is a useless sack of shit after laning phase, as opposed to Renekton, who is less difficult but can actually do stuff).
Now, Riven can still potentially win the match-up if she plays much better than Garen. This is a good thing. Hard counters are stupid.
garen being a straight up counter was true when garens q could still silence for a full 2.5 s if maxed, but not anymore.
He's a better counter now, since he doesn't need to itemize for armour due to his W's stacking mechanic. He can start with a Doran's Blade and have health, damage, sustain, and armour in lane, and itemize for that health and damage first, either through a Bami's Cinder or a Phage.
Critmaster Garen1 votesA good Garen can auto Riven instead of Q'ing her (or use it as a reset), baiting out the E or making her take free damage, use his W to blunt her damage, and Q to interrupt her attempt at kiting, which is a laughable notion by the way. Garen's Q outranges any of Riven's ability threat radii. He also runs grasp, which is by a fair margin the strongest of the masteries early on.
Nah, now you're twisting his words into bullshit to suit your argument.
Box Box is probably better at playing Garen than you are, much less Riven, and he says Garen is a very rough match-up in lane (but he doesn't mind it because Garen is a useless sack of shit after laning phase, as opposed to Renekton, who is less difficult but can actually do stuff).
Now, Riven can still potentially win the match-up if she plays much better than Garen. This is a good thing. Hard counters are stupid.
He's a better counter now, since he doesn't need to itemize for armour due to his W's stacking mechanic. He can start with a Doran's Blade and have health, damage, sustain, and armour in lane, and itemize for that health and damage first, either through a Bami's Cinder or a Phage.
garen doesnt start to scale before lvl 5 to lvl 7 after his rework. he will lose trades before he has at least 1 or 2 items and enough levels for the spin to scale.
riven powerspikes much earler and can easily outtrade him and snowball. the infamous early riven all in cheese. honestly, i still think its a skill matchup and varies heavily between the players.
it often feels like whoever tries to initiate the trade loses, because the other side has abilities to react to evey of his opponents ability.
riven can dash out of garens q, stun the spin to disengage then turn on him. garen can interrupt her animation cancelling chain with his silence and absorb damage with his w like you said., then deal damage through her cc with the spin.
EndlessSorcerer1 votesThey even created a champion which creates more bushes for him to be in.
Critmaster Garen1 votesits not even true for tanks that they dont have a lot of sustain.
they usually have high base health regeneration, that goes as far as restoring 20 to 25 health per second with some items. which is quite a lot.
and then there are actual tanks with pretty good sustain mechanics built in.
i mean galio can literally heal on a laser turret.
oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votesway is it that when you have to counter pick or counter build in the game of league people call it unbalanced? that is the point... the counter picks and counter builds are the balance
like really?
Critmaster Garen1 votes[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=47w5jLsB,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2016-09-26T23:01:59.227+0000)
way is it that when you have to counter pick or counter build in the game of league people call it unbalanced? that is the point... the counter picks and counter builds are the balance
like really?
i dont know what in specific youre talking about, but there is a point where counters go too far.
remember 
being designed as an anti mage/assassin, right? do you also remember when he still had his silence on his q? the entire lane phase from lvl 6 on was him flashing in, poking with his q and walking/flashing back out. THATS taking it too far for example.
so is 
passive slow right now.
its the same reason 
gets reworked and 
gets changed. theyre assassins and supposed to counter ad carries and mages. but that doesnt mean they should be able to delete the opposition without any counterplay at all.
you can make the same argument for melee top laners vs. ranged champions. while ranged champions and kiting are supposed to be somewhat of a weakness for them, they shouldnt just be able to dispose of them effordless.
its a reason i have issues with 
design. shes taking the concept of tank shedding too far and takes far less of a risk than 
to do so for example.
oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=47w5jLsB,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2016-09-26T23:05:06.009+0000)
i dont know what in specific youre talking about, but there is a point where counters go too far.
remember
so is
its the same reason
you can make the same argument for melee top laners vs. ranged champions. while ranged champions and kiting are supposed to be somewhat of a weakness for them, they shouldnt just be able to dispose of them effordless.
its a reason i have issues with
was referring to the post made by SP Dodgecity but in general majority of the threads on the boards about unhealthy champs /toxic kits etc is people refusing to learn to counter play... that is part of the game and strategy of the game
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