PSA: All of the mages getting nerfed needed nerfs even without DFT.

WoonStruck·Dec 2, 2015·4 votes·488 views

If they got popular by other means, they'd still end up getting nerfed. If you look at the numbers and functionality of their kit, its extremely powerful in general, and very little play against it.

If you're wondering how brand and anivia fit into it, think about how Anivia can afk farm, how its impossible for melee to fight either of them if played properly, and the huge numbers in their kit overall.

We all know Cass isn't that great even with DFT. She should be a prime candidate. This says something about all four mages getting nerfed. Its not just DFT making them strong.

20 Comments

ChargeItDownMidDec 2, 20153 votes

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WoonStruckDec 2, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Except that is completely untrue. Champions like anivia, brand, and malzahar get wrecked by the league of mobility and have been getting wrecked for the past 2-3 years. None of them have been top pick/ban the past few seasons (just an fyi, pick/ban rate is the best stat to look at and have historically always correlated extremely well with champion strength).

The only one that is moving into a top pick/ban right now is brand and that is only with dfg. None of the champions would move beyond mid pick/ban without the dfg. League is defined by mobility and immobile champions often have insane numbers while still being completely outclassed by their mobile counterparts (see Nasus and his infinite q).

Well, first off, this is League of Bruisers right now, not mobility. Anivia and malzahar both excel in the game's current state when played properly. Malz isn't there to 100-0 someone, its to shut someone's aggression down and eliminate them with his team.

Brand actually is broken. Take a look at his numbers before the patch as well. Just because you can't hit skillshots doesn't mean he wasn't insanely strong already. He just wasn't popular because he's not super easy. We all know League players absolutely love braindead simple champs now.

Swain's play-pattern was very binary and stops several champs from even being able to lane. He wins just by being there. He needs to be toned down in various ways, and actually needs a minor rework on pretty much all of his non-ult abilities.

Anivia stops many champs from functioning already (anyone without a long-range gapcloser). Her safety and numbers are far too high considering that 'niche.' Otherwise, the 'niche' needs to be toned down.

Kitten of EvilDec 2, 20151 votes

this is League of Bruisers right now, not mobility

You say that like it's a bad thing!

Brand, Malz, and Anivia excel against bruisers and struggle against mobile bursty assassin-type champions. I don't see a problem here. That is their niche. DoT is going to be strong against bruisers because it is sustained magic damage. It didn't need the extra help from Deathfire.

ChargeItDownMidDec 2, 20151 votes

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WoonStruckDec 2, 20152 votes

{quoted}

It is still the league of mobility first and foremost. Champions are tankier now than they were last season but it doesn't change the fact that the game is defined by mobility. Also, brand was never impressive before this patch, his numbers simply were not good enough to overcome being immobile. Compare him to someone like viktor who has limited mobility or azir who had a dash and it is easy to see why he was not played.

Swain and anivia were binary but that didn't make them good. Their lack of mobility made them lose to the mobile champions who dominate the game.

So you're saying that nearly a 55% win-rate pre-patch wasn't impressive for an immobile mage? His numbers have always been insane and worth utilizing. It came down to whether you were bad at utilizing him or not.

ChargeItDownMidDec 2, 20152 votes

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WoonStruckDec 2, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Considering his pick rate, not really. Tryndamere had a 58% winrate and singed topped 60% while they weren't all that good. Remember, pick/ban rates are far superior to winrates when it comes to champion strength. A champion that is picked less will naturally have a higher winrate than a champion of equal strength that has a higher pick/ban rate because of how much high pick/ban rates artificially deflate winrates.

And now that people realize their strength, everyone is playing them. And now they're getting nerfed. Thank you for pushing my argument further. DFT isn't as insane as you guys think. Its a help to them, but do the numbers really quick. If it were as powerful as you're implying, Talon would seem more useful than he is. For that matter, so would Twitch and DPS mages.

We all know Cass isn't that great even with DFT. She should be a prime candidate. This says something about all four mages getting nerfed.

ChargeItDownMidDec 2, 20152 votes

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WoonStruckDec 2, 20151 votes

{quoted}

It has nothing to do with people realizing their strengths. People realized their strengths last year, those strengths were simply not enough to make them playable. They needed deathfire touch to compete with the mobility champions. The entire "they were strong without deathfire touch" argument is complete bullshit and proven by how much they were dominated by the mobility meta last season.

Swain's problems aren't due to mobility. Anivia's problems aren't due to mobility. Malzahar's problems aren't due to mobility.

They're harder to execute vs mobility, depending on how drastic, but they've never been pushed out by it. There was never anything that stopped them from functioning. They simply weren't in favor due to not being in the limelight.

People in this game are sheep. How long will it take you to realize this? So few people play a champ because they're attached to it. They play a champ because its easy, mobile ("fun"), or powerful. J4 is a perfect example. He's still potent. A lot of control, mobility, damage, tankiness. Yet, he's very rarely played compared to what's FotM. Does that mean he's not still very powerful? No. People just flock to what's already popular.

ChargeItDownMidDec 2, 20151 votes

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WoonStruckDec 2, 20151 votes

{quoted}

They were all completely pushed out last season by the mobility meta. They were not in favor simply because there was no reason to choose them over azir or viktor who did everything the immobile mages did while still retaining some mobility. The problem wasn't that they were harder to execute vs mobility champions, the problem was that they had nothing to offer to play them over mobility champions.

Also, you can't call the playerbase "sheeple" when they constantly change their champion pool based on what is strong. How many people picked up on veiger being overpowered 1 day into patch 5.18? How many people picked up on viktor when he got pushed over the top? Runeglaive ezreal? 5.3 ahri?

There were over 20 different mid champions (none of which were the immobile champions you mention) that dominated the meta at one point or another last season and the player-base was extremely fast to learn those champions. The community is extremely good at identifying what is overpowered and abusing it in ranked. That does not make them "sheeple"

They weren't ever in meta, outside of Anivia and release Brand, so please tell me how they were 'pushed out.'

And switching your champion pool based on what is OP (not strong, OP) is the exact definition of 'sheep.' Many champs remain strong despite there being OP champs, yet those top getting played.

And really? The main AP that went mid were Ahri, Viktor, Azir. The other ones were far, far less popular.

Besides, that's not the argument. You're basically supporting me in saying that the 4 champs getting nerfed were still strong, but people knew ahri, vik, and azir, etc were stronger, so they played them instead. Also, Vik being strong highlights that 'league of mobility' isn't why Brand, Swain, Aniv, and Malz weren't played. Especially Malz and Aniv.

Thus, DFT didn't make them strong, it pushed their already strong kits even further.

Pasta Help DeskDec 2, 20151 votes

So because a champion excels when played properly they deserve a nerf due to your incompetence to just get better or try other things?

WoonStruckDec 2, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pasta Help Desk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=47XAEgZL,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-12-02T21:02:29.178+0000)

So because a champion excels when played properly they deserve a nerf due to your incompetence to just get better or try other things?

First off, bad argument because you're trying to insult someone at the same time.

Second, what other champ when played properly to high success wasn't nerfed? Please clarify this one so you realize how bad you are at creating a point.

You sound like a biased freelo sheep.

Pasta Help DeskDec 2, 20151 votes

First off, bad argument because you're trying to insult someone at the same time.

WoonStruckDec 2, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pasta Help Desk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=47XAEgZL,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2015-12-02T21:20:51.738+0000)

First off, bad argument because you're trying to insult someone at the same time.

You sounding like a biased freelo sheep isn't a part of my argument. Its a statement separate from from my argument.

Pasta Help DeskDec 2, 20151 votes

First off, bad argument because you're trying to insult someone at the same time.

So your aloud to insult me and its a good argument, but if I do it to you it is a bad argument?

All I was trying to point out is I don't get your argument. The way I read it and it came off to me is nerf xx champions because I played against one where the person playing them knew that champ and well I want them punished for taking the time to learn X champ.

WTF is a freelo sheep? Last I checked not a single champ has a 100% win rate so your freelo point is meh at best.

WoonStruckDec 2, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pasta Help Desk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=47XAEgZL,comment-id=000100000001,timestamp=2015-12-02T21:22:59.275+0000)

First off, bad argument because you're trying to insult someone at the same time.

So your aloud to insult me and its a good argument, but if I do it to you it is a bad argument?

All I was trying to point out is I don't get your argument. The way I read it and it came off to me is nerf xx champions because I played against one where the person playing them knew that champ and well I want them punished for taking the time to learn X champ.

WTF is a freelo sheep? Last I checked not a single champ has a 100% win rate so your freelo point is meh at best.

I'm not talking about my experiences with them at all. I'm talking about the champions in general. Everyone knows from ARAM that all of their kits are inherently powerful compared to others. Anyone that knew how to play brand, anivia, or malz knew that their team was likely to win in ARAM unless the other team has several strong champs while they were the only force on their team.

Their power has always been there, people just didn't play them on SR because other things had more attention surrounding them. People sheep in this game. Everyone knows that. It doesn't mean unpopular champs aren't broken as well. Any Skarner player knows that. I'm sure anyone else has noticed that people are no longer re-rolling Anivia anymore because now they've tried her and realize how broken she is, even without DFT. There's been a HUGE surge of Anivias in ARAM.

insaiyanbaccaDec 2, 20151 votes

yeah brand anivia were pretty strong already, and i guess i understand nerfing malz buuuuut i think they nerfed the wrong part of his kit. like why nerf the w? nerf the q or e tbh the w nerf is barely a nerf and if he needs a enrf thats not where he needs it.

WoonStruckDec 2, 20151 votes

{quoted}

yeah brand anivia were pretty strong already, and i guess i understand nerfing malz buuuuut i think they nerfed the wrong part of his kit. like why nerf the w? nerf the q or e tbh the w nerf is barely a nerf and if he needs a enrf thats not where he needs it.

Because they want to trim away excess powerful. They don't want to make them weak, they want to stop them from being over-bearing. I agree with that notion. I'd love for less mobile champs to be considered strong again. However, a lot of them haven't been touched in years, thus still have extremely powerful numbers still. All of them, even ones that aren't getting nerfed atm, need heavy tuning.

Remember when blitz was considered bad in season 3, then surged in popularity? His Q had 320 or 360 base damage. Its been a while so I don't quite remember, but I know it was absurdly high. A lot of immobile champs that don't have a huge strategic niche or aren't over-tuned, thus show up in competitive, still have archaic values that only worked when people had insanely high defenses compared to the current League of Legends. Its that excess power that they're taking away. Its not needed for them to do their intended purpose.

Unpopular champs are some of the most likely to be over-tuned at this point.