but being an immobile melee I guess I should only be useful for 10 minutes after I leave top lane to join my team before being forced to coddle my ADC now that he's got enough items to cover his flaws as a player
when will we get our late game juggernaut riot
is a midgame champion
Ralanr2 votesLaning power? What laning power? You're Nasus.
Big Lincoln1 votesi mean all juggernauts.
I'm including Nasus because I knew someone would try and point to him as a late game champion
Ralanr1 votesFew fighters that are meant to be durable actually scale into late game though.
Hexs Fortune1 votes of course falls off after mid game. His damage is single target and late game his resistances are shredded
franchise76761 votesfarm your q and 1 shot adc
Big Lincoln4 votesnever reach a good ADC who's behind their tank and has a support
good plan, man
Shonjl1 votesWhy are you going after the ADC alone and letting their tank and support focus you by yourself? Of course you will die 1v3, have 2 people with you as well and if you farmed well, you will win.
Big Lincoln2 votesthat's not remotely what i said
my champions fall off a cliff late game despite originally being meant to be a carry class
PermabannedGaren3 votesWhy are you going after the ADC alone and letting their tank and support focus you by yourself? Of course you will die 1v3, have 2 people with you as well and if you farmed well, you will win.
No, he's completely right. Nasus is average at best late game. He is still a great duelist, but it's laughably easy to kite a Nasus, he's quickly shredded, and he deals little damage to the enemy front line and as such can't sustain against it.
There is not a single juggernaut that is particularly good late game. Many are actually bad late game. Trundle might be the best late game due to his ability to designate a single front liner as no longer existing in a team fight, opening up the ADC to getting dove, but no juggernaut compares to ADCs late game, or to other late game carries like Yasuo, Cassiopiea, Jax, Camille, Fiora, Azir, or fucking Xin Zhao.
Shonjl3 votesNo, he's completely right. Nasus is average at best late game. He is still a great duelist, but it's laughably easy to kite a Nasus, he's quickly shredded, and he deals little damage to the enemy front line and as such can't sustain against it.
There is not a single juggernaut that is particularly good late game. Many are actually bad late game. Trundle might be the best late game due to his ability to designate a single front liner as no longer existing in a team fight, opening up the ADC to getting dove, but no juggernaut compares to ADCs late game, or to other late game carries like Yasuo, Cassiopiea, Jax, Camille, Fiora, Azir, or fucking Xin Zhao.
The sad thing is, Fiora doesn't even need to be lategame to be a stupid shit. She just needs Ravenous and BT and suddenly she is unkillable. Xin at least has the decency of diving in alone and while he will most likely kill someone, will die for it and usually he is worth more than whoever he takes with him.
PermabannedGaren2 votesThe sad thing is, Fiora doesn't even need to be lategame to be a stupid shit. She just needs Ravenous and BT and suddenly she is unkillable. Xin at least has the decency of diving in alone and while he will most likely kill someone, will die for it and usually he is worth more than whoever he takes with him.
Xin Zhao is a much better drain tank than Fiora to be honest friend. Fiora simply doesn't attack as often as Xin Zhao, so heals less.
A Fiora who rushes Ravenous and BT is easily bursted and killed mid-game. If you can't do this to her in a team fight you're playing badly.
Big Lincoln1 votesI sense a particular distaste for Xin Zhao
PermabannedGaren1 votes[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=45yeAYOE,comment-id=000200010001,timestamp=2017-03-31T18:42:51.733+0000)
I sense a particular distaste for Xin Zhao
Not really, he's just, of the champions I listed, thought of as being the worst late game, despite the fact that his late game far outstrips any juggernaut's. It's very underrated. The trick is getting there.
WalkingInACircle1 votesHasn't he always been a splitpusher?
ZT Xperimentor1 votesAnd a primary reason nobody wants to play tanks; they rarely, if ever, get to stay durable.
Big Lincoln2 votestanks still last longer than most juggernauts will in a fight
between having CC to interrupt damage dealers and much stronger defensive steroids save for Garen's W, tanks will usually outlast them in a 5v5 except against a Trundle
most juggernaut survivability beyond bases comes from sustain which is easy to counter. tanks have very large shields or % damage reduction
Ralanr2 votes[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=45yeAYOE,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2017-03-31T18:47:36.364+0000)
tanks still last longer than most juggernauts will in a fight
The lack of sustain leads me to disagree.
between having CC to interrupt damage dealers and much stronger defensive steroids save for Garen's W, tanks will usually outlast them in a 5v5 except against a Trundle
Defensive steroids are great when they aren't just flat resistances that get cut by pen items.
most juggernaut survivability beyond bases comes from sustain which is easy to counter. tanks have very large shields or % damage reduction
Easy to counter if people bother to buy Executioners culling, but they don't.
Big Lincoln2 votessoloQ players being dumb doesn't mean juggernauts have an easy time staying alive
most tanks have a shield or % DR, and you can get a hefty amount of regen from a lot of good items.
imo right now I would say juggernauts will do better mid game but when it comes to full build a tank will almost always live longer in a 5v5.
i would rather have at least one juggernaut I can pick to exceed late game though.
Ralanr1 votes[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=45yeAYOE,comment-id=0005000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-31T18:54:13.992+0000)
soloQ players being dumb doesn't mean juggernauts have an easy time staying alive
So are we just talking theory or what's happening?
most tanks have a shield or % DR, and you can get a hefty amount of regen from a lot of good items.
Beyond Galio and Maokai (who is getting his ult changed) I can't think of any tank with %DR. So it's mainly just shields.
And health regeneration is only useful outside of a fight. Both tanks and juggernauts can build Warmogs so it's not that big of a concern.
imo right now I would say juggernauts will do better mid game but when it comes to full build a tank will almost always live longer in a 5v5.
I think the opposite. Tanks do better mid because that's when everyone groups up and teamfights, but ADCs don't have their anti tank gear. Juggernauts in comparison do better late because they have the damage to take people out faster than tanks could.
i would rather have at least one juggernaut I can pick to exceed late game though.
How many durable bruisers are actually meant to exceed late? How many durable champions in general exceed late?
All I can think of is Mundo when he's retardedly fed.
Big Lincoln2 votesI think the opposite. Tanks do better mid because that's when everyone groups up and teamfights, but ADCs don't have their anti tank gear. Juggernauts in comparison do better late because they have the damage to take people out faster than tanks could.
of the juggernaut list, sourcing champion.gg, the only ones that have a steadily increasing curve by game length are Garen and Volibear (which makes no sense to me because voli's late is trash), and Skarner if we still consider him one. The rest of them usually have a slow decline, or a big dip in mid-late before evening out (usually the ones that go full or mostly tank as opposed to heavy AD). most tanks and tank supports usually have the best performance later on, where their utility can immediately decide the game, obvious exceptions for early game tanks like Poppy and gutted ones like Maokai
How many durable bruisers are actually meant to exceed late? How many durable champions in general exceed late?
All I can think of is Mundo when he's retardedly fed.
right, that's what i'm asking to change; it's dumb to make every or almost every champion in a sub group excel at the same stage of the game. makes things get stale really quick; not to mention muddying up why you would pick one of them over the other, or why bother playing them at all when there's only a brief portion of the game they aren't outclassed by tanks or ADCs
PermabannedGaren1 votes[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=45yeAYOE,comment-id=000500000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-31T19:38:32.627+0000)
of the juggernaut list, sourcing champion.gg, the only ones that have a steadily increasing curve by game length are Garen and Volibear (which makes no sense to me because voli's late is trash)
Garen and Voli's win rates climbing upward as the game goes on can be explained by both being trash in general. They're bad early, but at least late game they get to actually be champions, even if mediocre or weak ones. That's why when Voli is good (like he was last season) his curve starts high then goes down.
PermabannedGaren2 votes[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=45yeAYOE,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2017-03-31T18:47:36.364+0000)
tanks still last longer than most juggernauts will in a fight
between having CC to interrupt damage dealers and much stronger defensive steroids save for Garen's W, tanks will usually outlast them in a 5v5 except against a Trundle
most juggernaut survivability beyond bases comes from sustain which is easy to counter. tanks have very large shields or % damage reduction
Late game a bruiser (so two tanky damage items and full tank) Mordekaiser is probably the tankiest champion in the game IMO, but yeah your point is largely correct. Most juggernauts late game are just shitty front liners. Their DPS isn't reliable or safe enough to make them carries (and in some cases their DPS just sucks late game), and their burst tends to fall off, even assuming they can get onto a squishy, which isn't likely.
Big Lincoln1 votesi always forget about mordekaiser because I pretty much only use him as a counterpick for Tryndamere now
buff juggernauts tbh
PermabannedGaren1 votes[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=45yeAYOE,comment-id=0005000000010000,timestamp=2017-03-31T21:26:22.719+0000)
i always forget about mordekaiser because I pretty much only use him as a counterpick for Tryndamere now
buff juggernauts tbh
I'm not sure buffing most of them is the answer (and fuck you for even implying Mordekaiser should be buffed). The class needs some reworks all-around. Some like Darius are fine and don't really need changes, but Garen, Mundo, Volibear, Mordekaiser, and friends all need some serious work done to their kits. I'd also like if if, when Cho'gath gets a rework, he gets turned into a hypercarry Juggernaut. Would fit his theme wonderfully, and be a niche that currently doesn't exist.
Big Lincoln1 votesfinally someone who shares my sentiments about ChoGath. he'd work so well with it and already almost does given his favoring of health, and immobility + telegraphed attacks
I think a big chunk of the jugg class needs reworks as well, I'm with you on that much; it's part of why IMO a lot of people are opposed to them entirely atm, the large majority of the group is sorely outdated
i did a rough draft of a voli rework a while back if you want to read it, make him more fighter-esque instead of transitioning into a secondary tank https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/FRfwWNWr-rough-draft-for-a-volibear-vgu I want to edit it after thinking about him some more, but since it's just theorycraft shit i don't feel motivated to bump it
Elkington VI1 votesAlmost every bruiser is a mid game champion. The ones that scale the best into late game do so due to their utility. That's how it's always been.