Ekko need his W reworked into a dmg ability

The Deckowner·Jun 12, 2016·15 votes·2,277 views

This will make tank Ekko unviable because it removes his aoe stun/slow, and making it into a dmg ability will make AP Ekko actually viable.

For those who think AP Ekko isn't terrible, you are wrong. Too much of AP Ekko's dmg is put into his R, which unless you use a Zhonyas or you are getting chased down, is nearly impossible to land. EQ and passive proc is not enough to kill a target, also considering how squishy ap ekko is, the %hp dmg on w is useless because if you stick around you get blow up. making W a dmg ability with no cc will really help him actually do what an assassin do: kill people.

26 Comments

XeroKimoJun 12, 20165 votes

All of AP ekko's dmg comes from both his passive and his ult actually, most of his damage was shifted from his and E and Q into his passive and ult for whatever reason.

I'm someone who perfers playing ekko like an assassin over his tank style. You mention that his EQ + passive isn't enough to kill a target? Well if it's a tank of course it wouldn't be, if it's a squishy then did you build lich bane? As an assassin you want to deal as much damage as possible on a single target, so you should be getting lich bane over ludens. Even if a squishy target survives, your W passive deals a lot of missing hp dmg thanks to it's ap scaling.

If you stick around you get blown up, well of course, you're an assassin after all, what kind of assassin doesn't get blown up if they stick too long inside the enemy team? As AP ekko you'd want cdr so blowing your ult wouldn't mean too much, and you can proc your passive solely from Q's, if you're running away or chasing an enemy, you don't always have to use your W to stun, the shield also has a huge scaling and late game can effectively have double the health when procing it assuming you don't have any HP/AP items that is.

A normal build for me as AP ekko would be Morello's -> sorc boots -> Lich bane -> Abyssal/Zhonyas -> Rabs -> GA/Zhonyas/Abyssal, and if I really needed to, I can sell Morello's late game for whatever item I didn't get that has //. With it I'd be running around ~160 Armor/MR and around ~600 ap and 40% cdr

I know this isn't a how to play AP ekko thread, but AP ekko is very well viable, it just has a unique style of playing

MunchCrunchLunchJun 12, 20162 votes

{quoted}

All of AP ekko's dmg comes from both his passive and his ult actually, most of his damage was shifted from his and E and Q into his passive and ult for whatever reason.

I'm someone who perfers playing ekko like an assassin over his tank style. You mention that his EQ + passive isn't enough to kill a target? Well if it's a tank of course it wouldn't be, if it's a squishy then did you build lich bane? As an assassin you want to deal as much damage as possible on a single target, so you should be getting lich bane over ludens. Even if a squishy target survives, you're W passive deals a lot of missing hp dmg thanks to it's ap scaling.

If you stick around you get blown up, well of course, you're an assassin after all, what kind of assassin doesn't get blown up if they stick too long inside the enemy team? As AP ekko you'd want cdr so blowing your ult wouldn't mean too much, and you can proc your passive solely from Q's, if you're running away or chasing an enemy, you don't always have to use your W to stun, the shield also has a huge scaling and late game can effectively have double the health when procing it assuming you don't have any HP/AP items that is.

A normal build for me as AP ekko would be Morello's -> sorc boots -> Lich bane -> Abyssal/Zhonyas -> Rabs -> GA/Zhonyas/Abyssal, and if I really needed to, I can sell Morello's late game for whatever item I didn't get that has //. With it I'd be running around ~160 Armor/MR and around ~600 ap and 40% cdr

I know this isn't a how to play AP ekko thread, but AP ekko is very well viable, it just has a unique style of playing

nope ap ekko is not viable. if every mid ekko played ap ekko his winrate would be around 40% if you ask me

Babs2424Jun 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

All of AP ekko's dmg comes from both his passive and his ult actually, most of his damage was shifted from his and E and Q into his passive and ult for whatever reason.

I'm someone who perfers playing ekko like an assassin over his tank style. You mention that his EQ + passive isn't enough to kill a target? Well if it's a tank of course it wouldn't be, if it's a squishy then did you build lich bane? As an assassin you want to deal as much damage as possible on a single target, so you should be getting lich bane over ludens. Even if a squishy target survives, you're W passive deals a lot of missing hp dmg thanks to it's ap scaling.

If you stick around you get blown up, well of course, you're an assassin after all, what kind of assassin doesn't get blown up if they stick too long inside the enemy team? As AP ekko you'd want cdr so blowing your ult wouldn't mean too much, and you can proc your passive solely from Q's, if you're running away or chasing an enemy, you don't always have to use your W to stun, the shield also has a huge scaling and late game can effectively have double the health when procing it assuming you don't have any HP/AP items that is.

A normal build for me as AP ekko would be Morello's -> sorc boots -> Lich bane -> Abyssal/Zhonyas -> Rabs -> GA/Zhonyas/Abyssal, and if I really needed to, I can sell Morello's late game for whatever item I didn't get that has //. With it I'd be running around ~160 Armor/MR and around ~600 ap and 40% cdr

I know this isn't a how to play AP ekko thread, but AP ekko is very well viable, it just has a unique style of playing

It's hard to play Ap Ekko now, I love his kit, I love playing him. Its just his damage isnt enough. Ekko's ap build is expensive, on top of the fact that his early game is only mediocre and his laning phase is sub par until 6 when he can start roaming. Think of it this way, Ekko is an ap assassin who relies on roaming to get fed, but has 2 slows and a stun on his kit, both of which are mostly unreliable, discounting his passive. Now let's swap over to another Ap Assassin, Akali, more damage, more mobility, and she has a more reliable slow than Ekko does in the form of her w. Now you can argue, Ekko Ult does a ton of damage, but in facts that's not true. Yes if you hit someone without any mr items you will do about 50% of their health, but if they have at least 1 mr item, in abyssal, or spirit visage, you're not going to do anymore than 40% of their health. The problem with Ekko is that even if you hit your stun on someone, you can't kill that person fast enough if you're even slightly ahead. I love Ap Ekko's play style but he lacks assassination power, which is attempted to be compensated for with his stun and slows, but his slows are unreliable. I've had multiple cases when I E+Q combo a target and they don't get slowed by my Q, and his stun set up is hard because if you don't play around vision enough people can see your hologram and just run away. His Q has a massive problem as well, it doesn't reward you for hitting the return as much as it should. A good Ekko can play around it and have it hit his enemy fairly often, however a 60% ap ratio doesn't do enough to make a noticeable difference. I mean Ekko's E has a 40% ap ratio and the same base damage, which is sad considering how your reward for hitting your Q is 20% ap over just E, autoing. I feel as though his Q return needs to be more rewarding, maybe if a target has no stacks and gets hit by the return it gives them 2 stacks, or something along that line. Ekko has a really hard time doing his job as an assassin, because hes not an assassin, he's a mediocre damage bruiser. Another thing that would buff Ap Ekko is make his shield last for 3 seconds on his W, like the stun lasts 1.75 and the shield is 2 sec, that is no time to be able to take advantage of that shield.

In conclusion, Ekko needs some buffs to his Ap side, his damage is to low for how unreliable it is and his shield isnt as strong as it should be, being a core part of his kit. I would love to see Ekko get some tiny buffs that push him to at least an 48% winrate because right now having over 125 games on him in mid only rewards you with a 51% win rate. Its another case of, why should I pick this champ over this champ. Why should I pick Ekko over Akali? Akali does more damage, is more reliable, and yes she may not have the hard cc on her kit, but she has more consistent damage and burst because of her low cd's. Ekko has a lot of power in his kit, and I understand why he doesn't do damage, but his power is all super delayed and some of that delayed power, shield, and q return. Is not enough to really be worth picking him when I can pick ahri and do the same thing and be more safe about it.

Here is my standard Ekko build, item 3165 , item 3157 OR item 3001 , item 3100 , item 3020 , item 3089 , item 3135

Later in the game I swap out item 3020 for item 3285

XeroKimoJun 12, 20161 votes

Well for every Tank ekko nerfs, AP ekko get's a buff, like right now as of 6.11, if you have more than 200 ap, your Q initial damage will be greater than before, and your R, having more than 250 ap will deal more damage than before as well

Babs2424Jun 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Well for every Tank ekko nerfs, AP ekko get's a buff, like right now as of 6.11, if you have more than 200 ap, your Q initial damage will be greater than before, and your R, having more than 250 ap will deal more damage than before as well

True but at the same time AP Ekko gets nerfed, remember the passive lock out time was changed to 5 seconds, Ekko's ult takes him back 4 seconds, which means your ult cant give you a passive stack on a target you have popped your passive on. Plus the stun duration reduction hit Ap Ekko aswell, and yes ap ratios got buffed however, base damages got nerfed the return base damage was lowered by 20 at all ranks but for some reason they buffed the outgoing ap ratio instead of the return. All in all tank ekko's nerfs actually hit ap Ekko to. After patch 6.11 Mid Ekko's winrate dropped by 2%

XeroKimoJun 12, 20161 votes

Yes it is unfortunate that they increased the lock out time on his passive, that is what I believe where most of Tank ekko's damage is coming from aside from the missing %hp dmg, being able to proc that multiple times in a fight on an enemy contributes to a lot of his damage, I would've rather have them done the same thing as before, shifting base damage into AP ratio for his passive, that would hurt tank ekko more than people would think.

As for his stun, I don't often use my W to stun in laning phase, it's mostly just mind games and to intimidate my enemy, they know how scary that skill is so you can find ways to actually trick them with that skill Late game against squishies I don't even bother using that skill as a stun since I'd mostly end up killing them, but if I do end up using it, at the very least I'd try to get the shield off so I can stay in the fight longer. If the battle becomes really extensive, I would try to land a stun as it's really game changing

Edit: Looked up his passive, it would probably be tough to even shift the base damage into ratios any farther as it as an 80% ratio, and shifting the passives power anywhere else would end up buffing him as a whole

Babs2424Jun 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Yes it is unfortunate that they increased the lock out time on his passive, that is what I believe where most of Tank ekko's damage is coming from aside from the missing %hp dmg, being able to proc that multiple times in a fight on an enemy contributes to a lot of his damage, I would've rather have them done the same thing as before, shifting base damage into AP ratio for his passive, that would hurt tank ekko more than people would think.

As for his stun, I don't often use my W to stun in laning phase, it's mostly just mind games and to intimidate my enemy, they know how scary that skill is so you can find ways to actually trick them with that skill Late game against squishies I don't even bother using that skill as a stun since I'd mostly end up killing them, but if I do end up using it, at the very least I'd try to get the shield off so I can stay in the fight longer. If the battle becomes really extensive, I would try to land a stun as it's really game changing

Edit: Looked up his passive, it would probably be tough to even shift the base damage into ratios any farther as it as an 80% ratio, and shifting the passives power anywhere else would end up buffing him as a whole

Ekko's W has so much power, in late game fights I always find myself using it, its almost always on CD. And yes his passive has a 80% ap ratio, but it's supposed to be this big burst of damage because you work so hard to proc it but it isnt. What 190 base damage is fine and a 80% ap ratio is nice, but considering his Q has the same ap ratio and a high base damage if you hit both sides, which is actually pretty easy to do if you use your e to change the angle, it's sad that his passive is so lackluster in the damage department I mean it does good damage don't get me wrong but compared to other 3 hit passives such as Vayne w, Vi w, heck even Kindred E hurts a lot. I would be very happy to see them nerf his q and buff his passive ap ratio. Considering it's supposed to be a huge part of his kit.

XeroKimoJun 12, 20161 votes

I don't think it lacks damage at all.... let's see, an average adc has around 1800 hp at lvl 18, taking vayne's W as 12% true damage that's 216 true damage, if the average AP ekko has 600 ap, that's 190 + 480 a total of 570 damage, while not account of MR, against an ADC that should be lowered to around ~500 damage, making Ekko's 3 hit passive > Vayne's 3 hit passive on squishy targets

Now if it's on a tank, let's say the average tank has 3.5k hp and around 150 MR

Vayne's W would deal 420 true damage, assuming that the ekko is using my standard build, i'd have 40 MPEN, and taking the same amount of ap as before I'd be dealing 570 x (100/210) which leaves us at around ~280 dmg.

Of course against a tank magic damage shouldn't deal more damage than true damage

The DeckownerJun 12, 20161 votes

EQ and passive really isn't enough to even kill a squishy target, and in a teamfight if you can't oneshot your target the enemy team won't just watch you auto their adc like 5 times procing w passive, you will get instantly blow up and have to burn ult. his shield is nice but god the duration is so short.

Apostle of LightJun 12, 20163 votes

AP Ekko is definitely not terrible if you're actually willing to put in the time to get good with him. The only reason AP Ekko seems awful is because he's not easy-mode like tank Ekko because you actually have to take risks in order to do well.

The DeckownerJun 12, 20161 votes

AP Ekko mid currently sits at 45.9% win rate right now, which is the third lowest in all mod champions, even lower than Taliyah.

The hardest part of Ekko's kit is landing W stun and do huge aoe dmg with ultimate. hitting eq then proc passive is nothing difficult, and that is the main dmg source of ap ekko, which doesn't do nearly enough dmg to assassinate his targets.

MrryZJun 12, 20161 votes

No idea why people downvoted you this is a great outlining of the differences between tank EKko and Ap Ekko

alfavhunterJun 12, 20162 votes

New W

Paradox effect

Active- causes ekko to jump back one second in time in position and Marks nearby enemies with his passive stack and adds a stack to targets already effected, this is capable of ignoring his passive's CD for a reset on it (weaker version of ult, this gives him more "slippery" mechanics so he can avoid damage by going back in time (doesn't heal)

Passive- when ekko procs his passive's damage (3 stacks) on an enemy champion or large/ epic monster he receives a shield for 40/80/120/160/200 +.4 AP for 2 seconds, this shield stacks and refreshes the duration

(Please note the reason the shield can be very powerful in group effects is because its replacing his AOE stun)

This change also makes ekko more like his cinematic where he repetitively goes back in time in a fight, but also involves the skillful play of proc passive then use it for full effect

This also gives ekko better access to bring out of position and recovering from it in a defensive manner or using it offensively

The DeckownerJun 12, 20162 votes

the back to 1 second feature might get confusing because he already have a ghost from 4 seconds ago, and it's hard to estimate where you were 1 secons ago(might be very close or super far).

alfavhunterJun 12, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Deckowner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3yJNmZzr,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-06-12T03:58:09.817+0000)

the back to 1 second feature might get confusing because he already have a ghost from 4 seconds ago, and it's hard to estimate where you were 1 secons ago(might be very close or super far).

1 second ago isn't as hard to keep track of as 4 seconds ago

Meaning it's easier to tell where you were for it

This change also provides the same purpose of avoiding damage by letting ekko jump in, AAQ then W out, however the 1 second return means a few things

If you CC him he is already to late to W to safety If you run to where he was at 1 second ago when you know he will jump out you can catch him out still

It gives enough counter play while still maintaining his purpose of W for surviving in a fight, letting him jump in and out

It also lets him use R then W for mobility shenanigans and damage escape tactics

This proposed change to ekko makes him have the feel of a time bending hooligan who can use time to escape bad situations or put him into favorable ones

The fact is he is an assassin that shouldn't have aoe stuns, this change keeps his damage relatively the same without being overbearing, ties it into his passive, gives him survival for properly procing his passive (and it can result in a huge shield for multiple procs, which is replacing the aoe stun as a survival mechanic) and still flows well with hit kit and feel

Honestly the proposed W would fit him more than his current one, because his current one is effecting the time of his enemies and not himself, that's zileans specialty not ekko, ekko effects his timeline for his advantage, and that's what this change helps inforce while maintaining the "survival" effect of the spell through shields that proc when an ekko is fighting his target with his passive procing on a constant basis or one quick huge burst. Also I have edited the earlier post to reflect a duration on the shield and that it stacks

MhihnjJun 12, 20161 votes

This means that ekko can teleport from and back to base. in seconds

101100111000Jun 12, 20161 votes

Ekko TPs to lane

Ekko Ws away immediately

Ults back to lane 3 seconds after that

Ekko Ah yes, time shenanigans Ekko

alfavhunterJun 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

This means that ekko can teleport from and back to base. in seconds

If you can buy your items, get your mana and hp back and know you want to go back all in under 1 second, sure, why not

It could have some distance restrictions attached to it, but you get the general idea of what the spell would be like

For example it could have

"Cannot return to a location grater than 800/1100/1400/1700/2000 units away"

The DeckownerJun 12, 20161 votes

the thing is his ghost will just be fucked up if you have a 1 second ghost and 4 secons ghost, the interaction will be so buggy. yes it is a creative idea but it might be too hard to execute.

alfavhunterJun 12, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Deckowner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3yJNmZzr,comment-id=0000000000000001,timestamp=2016-06-12T11:43:26.449+0000)

the thing is his ghost will just be fucked up if you have a 1 second ghost and 4 secons ghost, the interaction will be so buggy. yes it is a creative idea but it might be too hard to execute.

Who said there would be a second ghost?

It already shows a trail that leads to the ghost. It would put him somewhere within the trail

It's a 1 second return not 4, so it's easier to keep track of mentally

MunchCrunchLunchJun 12, 20162 votes

ap ekko always been terrible. except on release when you couldn't see his shadow. which was unfair.

just like you said. ap ekko doesn't have the damage other assassins have. there is no point in playing an assassin for utility. thats why you play him as tank. because he can survive to use his utility

MasziiJun 12, 20161 votes

Lol, is that why i got oneshot by an ap ekko in TT last night with just the Rabbadons/Zhonya item on TT + Phoenix Codex when he only used his e and full q + passive proc on me?

CeexSettJun 12, 20161 votes

Fiendish*

MrryZJun 12, 20162 votes

AP Ekko isn't terrible... he's just weaker than tank Ekko right now. Riot have said in the 6.11 patch notes that AP Ekko is in a fair state of balance right now so he should not need a rework. He doesnt need another damage ability. His current w is fine as it is it just needs higher ap scalings and lower bases on the passive side, in fact all of Ekkos abilities should have that applied. Also Ekkos R isn't as hard to land as you make out, you have to THINK about your positioning and play around that. The EQ passive combo should never outright kill a champion unless they're either incredibly squishy or you're incredibly fed, he's a skirmisher meaning he'll quickly leap on, blow his cooldowns getting as much damage off and run away again. the w passive works on AP ekko as a way to finish people caught in his stun off as his combo likely isn't going to do it.

To be honest I doubt you've even played AP Ekko properly with the amount of errors here.

Akali is SO HOTJun 12, 20161 votes

That's not totally true. E + Passive proc + Lich Bane is easily enough to instantly kill a squishy once he gets some AP items. The problem with AP Ekko is that it is very hard to actually do that in a teamfight. You really have to hope that you can land a good ult against the enemy team because using it defensively makes it almost useless. Tank Ekko is good because he has the utility of AP Ekko but he can survive long enough to go to town on everyone with it.

stealthfox94Jun 12, 20161 votes

Riot either just needs to accept the fact that Ekko is a bruiser/tank and balance him around that or give him a light rework to make him a true ap assassin.