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Scarra 7.2 rundown "darius not that oppressive"

Tychusfindlay919··6 votes·1,676 views

Yet another well respected, high tier player questions the darius nerf decision.

Once again, I question riot's balance team.

https://youtu.be/FBy5JyRxlSA

48 Comments

Ahristocats6 votes

https://i.gyazo.com/edf481fc37921642dc3f5a52d17d1db4.png

WoonStruck2 votes

Quoting the hard-stuck diamond 5 again...huh.

Shame he changed his name so people can't even see for themselves.

Kaioko3 votes

I don't mind the nerfs honestly. My issue with Darius is if he's going to be a lane bully he shouldn't be performing on par with other top laners in the late game. So you either buff his early game and nerf his late game (that spin heal if it hits multiple people is nuts) or you make some early game adjustments so that he's on par with other laners in the early game.

Tychusfindlay9193 votes

{quoted}

I don't mind the nerfs honestly. My issue with Darius is if he's going to be a lane bully he shouldn't be performing on par with other top laners in the late game. So you either buff his early game and nerf his late game (that spin heal if it hits multiple people is nuts) or you make some early game adjustments so that he's on par with other laners in the early game.

Darius's late game is weak. His late game is incredibly conditional on getting noxian might before he gets blown up, if he doesn't get it he's literally useless except for moderate peel and tank.

Kaioko2 votes

{quoted}

Darius's late game is weak. His late game is incredibly conditional on getting noxian might before he gets blown up, if he doesn't get it he's literally useless except for moderate peel and tank.

That was exactly what I thought too! However after looking through multiple champion analytics website his win rate remains positive (50%-52%) even with games going above the 40 minute mark.

On the other hand, early game champs like Lee Sin, Jayce or Pantheon see their late game win rate plummet to the 44%-46% range.

Tychusfindlay9192 votes

{quoted}

That was exactly what I thought too! However after looking through multiple champion analytics website his win rate remains positive (50%-52%) even with games going above the 40 minute mark.

On the other hand, early game champs like Lee Sin, Jayce or Pantheon see their late game win rate plummet to the 44%-46% range.

You're also not taking into account courage of the colossus. Wait for darii to stop running it since the lane phase nerf and watch his win rate past 40 minutes with grasp or something as his highest use and win rate mastery plummet. Have you ever taken a look at darius's win rate before courage was introduced? On patch 6.21 right before the courage update, darius's overall win rate was 50.7%. The patch after it freaking skyrocketed to 52+% and has slowly declined since.

The latest info looking at patch 7.1 before courage was just nerfed had darius's win rate at a little over 51%, and contrary to your findings, he actually didn't remain 50+% win rate past 40 minutes, he was at around 48.9% win rate at 40+

http://champion.gg/champion/Darius/Top

Kaioko1 votes

{quoted}

You're also not taking into account courage of the colossus. Wait for darii to stop running it since the lane phase nerf and watch his win rate past 40 minutes with grasp or something as his highest use and win rate mastery plummet. Have you ever taken a look at darius's win rate before courage was introduced? On patch 6.21 right before the courage update, darius's overall win rate was 50.7%. The patch after it freaking skyrocketed to 52+% and has slowly declined since.

The latest info looking at patch 7.1 before courage was just nerfed had darius's win rate at a little over 51%, and contrary to your findings, he actually didn't remain 50+% win rate past 40 minutes, he was at around 48.9% win rate at 40+

http://champion.gg/champion/Darius/Top

If we assume that champion.gg is more right than other website, sure let's just use that one for purposes of comparison. It still doesn't shake the fact that his win rate is above 51% at the 35-40 minute mark which is absolutely ridiculous for "an early game bully." Darius is not an early game bully he's a champion that does well early and scales decently into the late game.

Meanwhile Jayce who hasn't even received his nerfs yet goes down to a 47% win rate. The nerfs were dedicated to hit Darius' early game domination and they will do just that. If you want to dominate early in the top lane picking an actual early game bully.

Tychusfindlay9192 votes

{quoted}

If we assume that champion.gg is more right than other website, sure let's just use that one for purposes of comparison. It still doesn't shake the fact that his win rate is above 51% at the 35-40 minute mark which is absolutely ridiculous for "an early game bully." Darius is not an early game bully he's a champion that does well early and scales decently into the late game.

Meanwhile Jayce who hasn't even received his nerfs yet goes down to a 47% win rate. The nerfs were dedicated to hit Darius' early game domination and they will do just that. If you want to dominate early in the top lane picking an actual early game bully.

Jayce also can't utilize courage of the colossus, which once again, has been warping win rates across every tanky champion who has access to hard CC.

So you aren't assuming enough.

Kaioko1 votes

{quoted}

Jayce also can't utilize courage of the colossus, which once again, has been warping win rates across every tanky champion who has access to hard CC.

So you aren't assuming enough.

I'm going to stop arguing with you since it's a complete waste of time and you will not be open to think otherwise. I recommend though that when you use a website that includes a section for highest win rate mastery and the one most often used; you make sure the data agrees with you because you look royally stupid when your own website counters what you say :)

I'll spell it out too for you -- champion.gg says the highest win rate and chosen mastery is grasp and not CotC. Byeeeeeee

Tychusfindlay9192 votes

{quoted}

I'm going to stop arguing with you since it's a complete waste of time and you will not be open to think otherwise. I recommend though that when you use a website that includes a section for highest win rate mastery and the one most often used; you make sure the data agrees with you because you look royally stupid when your own website counters what you say :)

I'll spell it out too for you -- champion.gg says the highest win rate and chosen mastery is grasp and not CotC. Byeeeeeee

http://na.op.gg/champion/darius/statistics/top

Wrong site. He has a 50.1% win rate past 40

his highest use mastery is courage. It's also his highest win rate by FAR.

you look royally stupid just because of your typing style.

Byeeeeeeeeeee (like a total fukboi would say).

CppL2 votes

The passive nerf was deserved (that shit was ridiculous,Dmg wise).Not sure about Q nerf.

Tychusfindlay9193 votes

{quoted}

The passive nerf was deserved (that shit was ridiculous,Dmg wise).Not sure about Q nerf.

Interesting observation considering the passive was the same literally for over a year, and no one ever complained until tanks became super meta with courage of the colossus being introduced.

CppL1 votes

{quoted}

Interesting observation considering the passive was the same literally for over a year, and no one ever complained until tanks became super meta with courage of the colossus being introduced.

His passive was the main reason why he was such a huge early game lane bully.You start with W ,hide in the bush.Then you just aa+aa+w+aa,and you just chunk like 80% of enemy hp.ridiculous...

Big Lincoln2 votes

he's supposed to be a bully

Tychusfindlay9192 votes

{quoted}

His passive was the main reason why he was such a huge early game lane bully.You start with W ,hide in the bush.Then you just aa+aa+w+aa,and you just chunk like 80% of enemy hp.ridiculous...

You completely dodged the point of my response and responded with a rehash of whining...

nm10102 votes

I'm not saying this to be offensive, but you can tell someones elo with the strategies used sometimes. The ole' camp in a bush at level 1 lol.

Ad Vitam Aeterna4 votes

lmfao, and only morons fall for that. the first few times playing against a Darius you'll run into that, but then you realize every single Darius attempts the bush strat, so you take the bottom path and hug the river side.

jinxedchef2 votes

Let's play spot the Darius main.

Quepha2 votes

I like how the first thing Scarra actually says is "I can understand why they'd wanna do it."

Tychusfindlay9192 votes

{quoted}

I like how the first thing Scarra actually says is "I can understand why they'd wanna do it."

Understanding does not mean agree with.

I understand why the nazis hated the Jews, I sure as shit don't agree with it though.

Lauchmelder1 votes

It also means that you acknowledge what they did as something you can't change any more.

Karn Bishop1 votes

Darius is not oppressive by himself, but throw him into a team fight with two other tanky bruisers and just watch the oppression happen, though solo wise fiora and riven are far more oppressive.

MLDzXnRRR1 votes

I died at lvl 1 yesteday vs Darius. Decided to try and fight him to see what will happen :D

LadyRenly1 votes

{quoted}

I died at lvl 1 yesteday vs Darius. Decided to try and fight him to see what will happen :D

level 1 darius is a bad idea

Tychusfindlay9191 votes

{quoted}

level 1 darius is a bad idea

Watch olaf do it with ease.

Best princess EU1 votes

you still didn't understand

darius was nerfed FOR LOW ELO, no one cares about high elo of course scarra is going to say that darius was balanced but riot wanted to make darius less oppressive in low elo

Tychusfindlay9195 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sanji fanboy,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3xny8y4t,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-01-26T13:53:04.659+0000)

you still didn't understand

darius was nerfed FOR LOW ELO, no one cares about high elo of course scarra is going to say that darius was balanced but riot wanted to make darius less oppressive in low elo

That's the ultimate point of these threads, riot shouldn't balance for low elo, riot promised they would balance for platinum and above. When you balance for the ignorant and uncommitted, you get a shittier game.

Best princess EU2 votes

that's exactly my point, darius had 52% win rateabove plat and above he was still overpowered there if you want darius to be balanced you need to go to scarra's elo because there people manage to play against him but not in plat and above

Tychusfindlay9191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sanji fanboy,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3xny8y4t,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2017-01-26T14:08:38.338+0000)

that's exactly my point, darius had 52% win rateabove plat and above he was still overpowered there if you want darius to be balanced you need to go to scarra's elo because there people manage to play against him but not in plat and above

darius had a 52% win rate but the caveat is that his win rate was high only when he went courage of the colossus (54% win rate). With other keystones, like grasp, he only had a WIN RATE OF 50.56%

Why don't you actually check your facts. Darius hasn't been overpowered since his heyday during the hueggernaut update.

Ahristocats3 votes

platinium is still low elo, the logic of people is "it's X% of the player that means it's high" it isn't, players are still not good enough to understand things and if you balance around plat+ that means master/challenger players are going to get a shitty game and need to go to plat to play their main cough sona

MLDzXnRRR2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3xny8y4t,comment-id=000300000001,timestamp=2017-01-26T14:10:34.971+0000)

platinium is still low elo, the logic of people is "it's X% of the player that means it's high" it isn't, players are still not good enough to understand things and if you balance around plat+ that means master/challenger players are going to get a shitty game and need to go to plat to play their main cough sona

Aren't the 80 % of the players below Platinum? And there are even people that don't play ranked at all. Balancing around Challenger and Masters is bullshit, because most players play this game for fun, not for profit like the LCS players or the streamers.

Ahristocats1 votes

{quoted}

because most players play this game for fun, not for profit like the LCS players or the streamers.

nothing is wrong with playing for fun, you still have fun by learning the game i don't see any issue if you just play without learning anything whre the fuck is the fun to repeat everytime the same actions without understanding anything?

azrolator1 votes

Not having the best reflexes or the best map awareness is not the same as not understanding anything. The truth is that people that really play ranked don't make up the majority of the players on this game. And that while high elo might make up 10 percent of ranked players, it doesn't make up 10 percent of the player base. Catering to stupid kids who think playing video games is a sport and they are something special because they did well jamming down buttons and getting down timing on a video game is ridiculous. As you make clear, they don't really appreciate it. Most people play games for fun, not for some false sense of superiority as they toil away at clicking while the majority of us are busy working at jobs and taking care of actual responsibilities. If the majority of players are ignored while spoiled lazy children are given all the attention, the player base will dry up. And without the masses of people looking to play a game for some fun giving these kids someone to look down on, these players will move on to the next game. It is a balancing act that designers of these games must perform. And it is one that Riot has been failing at for quite a while now.

Very Hard Engage4 votes

"plat is still low elo" yet its top 10% across the board =/

Tychusfindlay9191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3xny8y4t,comment-id=000300000001,timestamp=2017-01-26T14:10:34.971+0000)

platinium is still low elo, the logic of people is "it's X% of the player that means it's high" it isn't, players are still not good enough to understand things and if you balance around plat+ that means master/challenger players are going to get a shitty game and need to go to plat to play their main cough sona

Objectively speaking, youre wrong, platinum is the starting point of high elo. A lot of memes came about with the introduction of dynamic queue allowing boosted players to climb, but otherwise plat and above is still the cutoff point where around less than 20% of the league's playerbase resides.

ChargeItDownMid3 votes

[deleted]

Ahristocats1 votes

which is why plat and above isn't high elo

Angry Monster2 votes

considering your supposed schooling level, you would understand the term "high" is subjective. You getting stuck on the term "high" is sorta sad.

Ahristocats1 votes

No it isn't subjective

there is a massive skill gap between plat and high diamond and above

if you balance around plat and above which means you consider it's high elo, the skill gap will make people like scarra needing to go into plat to get a real balance which doesn't make sens

by that logic you can consider master/challenger high elo idc it's better than plat, because i may be able to get good enough to get master but i can't get trash at the game to go to plat

Angry Monster2 votes

I never said there was not a skill difference. I said you were hung up on the word high. Maybe this is a language barrier problem for you.

The word high has not defined limit. You can be 1000 feet high or 20 feet high. The term is completely subjective because of the lack of precision using it. A diamond player is high than a plat player but they are not higher than a master player. The fact that they are higher than some but lower than others does not really define anything.

So the term is subjective, context always matters.

if you balance around plat and above which means you consider it's high elo, the skill gap will make people like scarra needing to go into plat to get a real balance which doesn't make sens

Plenty of master plus streamers think low diamond is just as bad plat. The class of dia 3 and lower to them are just filling in the space of who cant be Diamond 1 or higher.

For some reason video games are the only thing i have ever run across where people seem to think that top 10% is bad(league mentality in particular). In most cases this is consider a decent.

The game has to be playable at reasonable point of mastery expecting Riot to only consider only worry about the top .01 % of players is a unreasonable. That is playing at a level that literally not just anyone can achieve. By your argument Riot should only balance around faker since he can do things that others can't and he is held back EU and American players. He can not get a far game since those with lower skills are getting helped.

Ahristocats1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Angry Monster,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3xny8y4t,comment-id=000300000001000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-26T18:11:11.208+0000)

Plenty of master plus streamers think low diamond is just as bad plat. The class of dia 3 and lower to them are just filling in the space of who cant be Diamond 1 or higher.

i didn't say we have to balance the game around low diamond, i said above diamond 1 but if you want to balance around master and above or challenger i'm fine with that

that's better than plat

Darth Sidiouss1 votes

Its a matter of perspective perhaps he has not seen cheese ball Darius summoner 6 summoner 14 , storm raiders. You basically force your opponent to use their summoners right off the back and its too punishing for lvl 1 ! in your own minions as well ! it was one of the most cheesy first bloods ive ever witnessed myself beside the lvl 1 crit frenzy Tryndamere .

Darius also has high base stats and can pull off bs with his passive even when behind in lvl and CS its fucking oblivious why Riot nerfed him

He is well notoriously known for being BULLSHIT we just have too many top laners that play him and enjoy raping with him.

Big Lincoln2 votes

most players in high elo are aware of cheese and don't fall for it

in the hell that is low gold MMR the people here still afk in jungle with a blitzcrank on the other team

WoonStruck1 votes

They do that in plat and diamond too.

WoonStruck1 votes

Darius deserved it~~

GULAG 4 U1 votes

He is the best perfomring melee top later last patch according to lolaytics?

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