If a champion has 2 or more dashes

The thigh guy·Aug 22, 2019·4 votes·1,947 views

They are not difficult to play to an acceptable level.

Maybe to master completely. But to play and do well on. No.

You just handed a “hard champion” a way to nope out of anything they don’t like instead of actually learning to not put themselves in those situations.

Hence champions like draven, will ALWAYS be harder to play and execute than yasuo.

A champion like gangplank will always be harder to execute well on than irelia.

Azir will always be harder to play than akali.

33 Comments

usul1202Aug 22, 20196 votes

Gonna call bs on that. From that perspective Annie is a pinnacle of skill, and velkoz is harder to execute well than Lee sin...

DuskDaUmbreonAug 22, 20194 votes

According to OP, Nasus is even harder than Annie. He doesn't even get access to item 3152 .

Riven is now pathetically easy compared to him as well. Good to know it's the difficulty of my champion holding me back instead. :^)

The thigh guyAug 22, 20192 votes

{quoted}

According to OP, Nasus is even harder than Annie. He doesn't even get access to .

Riven is now pathetically easy compared to him as well. Good to know it's the difficulty of my champion holding me back instead. :^)

Riven is incredibly easy to play to an acceptable level. Animation canceling is not that difficult a mechanic.

DuskDaUmbreonAug 23, 20192 votes

W H E E Z E

usul1202Aug 22, 20193 votes

Ooh, if I build protobelt on Lucian that bumps me from 1 dash to 2, does that mean he's automatically easy enough for my mechanically-awful play to do well on him?

DuskDaUmbreonAug 23, 20191 votes

Exactly!

The thigh guyAug 22, 20193 votes

{quoted}

Gonna call bs on that. From that perspective Annie is a pinnacle of skill, and velkoz is harder to execute well than Lee sin...

Did I say lack of mobility makes a champion hard? No. I’ve stated that insane mobility makes a champion easy.

usul1202Aug 22, 20192 votes

You stated that Draven will always be harder than yas because yas has dashes so... Yes you did?

The thigh guyAug 22, 20191 votes

{quoted}

You stated that Draven will always be harder than yas because yas has dashes so... Yes you did?

Dashes makes a champion easier to play to an acceptable level.

It is laughably easy to not feed in a bad matchup as yasuo.

It’s significantly harder to not feed into a bad matchup as draven.

usul1202Aug 22, 20191 votes

I disagree. For example, if you're using ult as akali defensively to cover your mistakes, you're not going to be at an acceptable level because you lack kill/snowball pressure, the only thing you bring. If you're not able to dash aggressively as trist you'll never get your reset and have kill pressure, which murders her.

Now, you look at velkoz, if you fuck up your positioning minorly then you'll take free damage, majorly you'll die (side note, major fuckups also kill dash champs). However, you're balanced around that as an immobile mage, so while you're punished more, you should never be in that position with the barest level of competent play. I can go even in lane without ever interacting with my lane opponent by maxing w and shoving mindlessly, because my immobile champ is balanced around it.

Yas is an interesting point. His safety largely comes from windwall, since his dash is minion gated, and that (ww) has a significant cd. This makes him weaker as his opponent gains competency, more so than he gets stronger through player competency, to a point. (this is because cd gating and trade windows heavily reward enemies for taking the initiative against the champ wasting abilities) At very high levels it certainly balances out, but that's challenger/pro play.

Similarly interesting is Annie, who is trash at pro levels and uncommon at high elo, yet incredibly strong due to her simplicity. Even if you've gone 0/10 due to mistakes, you can fulfill your job as a stunbot chunking engage. Her playstyle is simple, her csing easy, and her mistakes are easily forgiven as well.

It's about kits, dash's (and other safety mechanisms) have a cost within champion power budgets, and ignoring how those costs factor into acceptable play/mastered play is very significant.

preternaturalAug 22, 20195 votes

i'm sorry, but draven honestly plays himself. the only thing that's hard about him is farming because he doesn't play himself there, but against champions that thing just plays itself you can never drop an axe unless you do it on purpose and all adc positioning is the same.

also akali is definitely difficult to play because she has such a variety of approach options that one can just get lost in it. yasuo does this too if he has minions, and they both have to go melee. gangplank on the otherhand doesn't really have to go melee and once you learn how to barrel you know how to barrel, yeah you can present advanced mechanics like teh ghost barrel and shit but yasuo has keyblade and akali is still being learnt by the experts. gp in lane is either casino or farmfest, pending his rune setup, barrels make him too safe, orange means i can't trade. yo Gangplank this thing has a "press to fix anything" button and we're talking about mobility being a nope out option?

usul1202Aug 22, 20192 votes

To be fair, a large part of Draven skill is getting axes to drop in the right spots in fights. For me at least that's quite difficult.

The thigh guyAug 22, 20194 votes

{quoted}

i'm sorry, but draven honestly plays himself. the only thing that's hard about him is farming because he doesn't play himself there, but against champions that thing just plays itself you can never drop an axe unless you do it on purpose and all adc positioning is the same.

also akali is definitely difficult to play because she has such a variety of approach options that one can just get lost in it. yasuo does this too if he has minions, and they both have to go melee. gangplank on the otherhand doesn't really have to go melee and once you learn how to barrel you know how to barrel, yeah you can present advanced mechanics like teh ghost barrel and shit but yasuo has keyblade and akali is still being learnt by the experts. gp in lane is either casino or farmfest, pending his rune setup, barrels make him too safe, orange means i can't trade. yo this thing has a "press to fix anything" button and we're talking about mobility being a nope out option?

Akali is difficult to master. Not to play. When you have 4 abilities that can all be used as an escape of some sort, the champion is not hard.

preternaturalAug 22, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3kufJ1E0,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2019-08-22T16:12:43.305+0000)

Akali is difficult to master. Not to play. When you have 4 abilities that can all be used as an escape of some sort, the champion is not hard.

so if you just always escape and don't use those abilities to do damage on akali how exactly are you gonna be executing her correctly? cause she's supposed to do dmg you see, she isn't providing much else, and 2 of those dashes are on a long ass cooldown like wtf. this is stupid.

The thigh guyAug 22, 20191 votes

{quoted}

so if you just always escape and don't use those abilities to do damage on akali how exactly are you gonna be executing her correctly? cause she's supposed to do dmg you see, she isn't providing much else, and 2 of those dashes are on a long ass cooldown like wtf. this is stupid.

That’s not the point. The point is her insane safety let’s her choose whatever fight she wants and forgives any mistake she could ever make.

Oh you got caught out because you mispositioned? That’s okay, use 2/3 of your dashes a ms steroid and a stealth to get out.

You CANT fuck up hard enough to die and have it not be 150% your fault.

preternaturalAug 22, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3kufJ1E0,comment-id=0000000100000000,timestamp=2019-08-22T17:13:36.633+0000)

That’s not the point. The point is her insane safety let’s her choose whatever fight she wants and forgives any mistake she could ever make.

Oh you got caught out because you mispositioned? That’s okay, use 2/3 of your dashes a ms steroid and a stealth to get out.

You CANT fuck up hard enough to die and have it not be 150% your fault.

so she's not doing dmg and is using her stealth and a dash? well done you executed correctly against akali.

The thigh guyAug 22, 20191 votes

{quoted}

so she's not doing dmg and is using her stealth and a dash? well done you executed correctly against akali.

Okay? Damage is not the point. SAFETY is the point. Sure. She isn’t using them to do damage now. Great. Any other champion would be punished with instant death, but because she has all this safety she isn’t.

“They have to use their abilities to do things!!!!!!” Is not a valid argument.

preternaturalAug 22, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3kufJ1E0,comment-id=000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-22T17:26:59.763+0000)

Okay? Damage is not the point. SAFETY is the point. Sure. She isn’t using them to do damage now. Great. Any other champion would be punished with instant death, but because she has all this safety she isn’t.

“They have to use their abilities to do things!!!!!!” Is not a valid argument.

she does dmg, that is her point. if she is using those moves that permit her access to key targets and not getting access to those targets then well done you did the thing correctly. this stays true for all the assassins not just akali. kha, ahri, kata, talon, zed, fizz, kass, nidalee. this is nothing unique to akali, her obscurity was unique but that's gone and now one can actually play against her stealth.

The thigh guyAug 22, 20191 votes

{quoted}

she does dmg, that is her point. if she is using those moves that permit her access to key targets and not getting access to those targets then well done you did the thing correctly. this stays true for all the assassins not just akali. kha, ahri, kata, talon, zed, fizz, kass, nidalee. this is nothing unique to akali, her obscurity was unique but that's gone and now one can actually play against her stealth.

Okay. So Lissandra doesn’t have a stun or a free zhonya’s. Because to have them she has to use them, so she doesn’t have them anymore? That’s exactly what you are saying.

Not to mention. Who cares that she isn’t doing damage with it. If she’s trying to escape she doesn’t give a fuck how much damage she is doing.

ZephyrDrakeAug 23, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3kufJ1E0,comment-id=0000000100000000,timestamp=2019-08-22T17:13:36.633+0000)

That’s not the point. The point is her insane safety let’s her choose whatever fight she wants and forgives any mistake she could ever make.

Oh you got caught out because you mispositioned? That’s okay, use 2/3 of your dashes a ms steroid and a stealth to get out.

You CANT fuck up hard enough to die and have it not be 150% your fault.

The point is that you have no point. If you just run away with akali you are not playing her in any acceptable way. If you cannot use the combos of a character you are literally unable to play them at any acceptable level. It doesn't matter if you don't die. You are providing nothing to the team.

Overlord ForneusAug 22, 20195 votes

[deleted]

The thigh guyAug 22, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Overlord Mengsk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3kufJ1E0,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-08-22T15:11:42.539+0000)

Sounds like someone hasn't played Draven or Irelia. Or someone that gets stomped by assassins... either case, pathetic.

You realize this is a post saying that draven is hard to play right?

HotarµAug 22, 20195 votes

#Going to post this here since unfortunately the other post was deleted before I could respond to your comment.

Your response to me claiming that Enchanters are Pyke's hardest matchups: "Or maybe the fact that more people agree with me than you shows that you are wrong by miles? But you know."

1 - I've got 500k mastery points on Pyke.

Does that mean I know everything and I'm the best player in the game? No.

But that does mean I've got a lot of experience and from my 700+ games: Enchanters are always the best pick into Pyke for the reasons listed above. By the way, you haven't given a single reason as to why you think they aren't a good pick into him, you've just said that I'm wrong (which is incorrect.)

2 - Hey, maybe my experience doesn't matter at all. So let's ask other people.

##Counterstats.net lists Rakan, Janna, Zilean, Sona, Soraka, and Nami as some of Pyke's hardest counters.

##Rankedboost lists Nami, Sona, Janna, Soraka, and Lulu as some of his hardest counters.

##Champion.GG lists Sona, Nami, Zilean, Janna, and Lulu as his worst matchups.

The only tanks on any of these lists are Leona and Nautilus, who aren't consistently good and usually only win in the late game.

3 - 3 websites still not enough information for you?

Let's check out MOBAfire, where some of the best Pykes from across the world come to share their information.

Here's Bizzleberry's guide on Pyke - Bizzleberry is a Diamond 1 player on EUW, his guide is also the most viewed one by far. Pyke's hardest matchups according to Bizzleberry are Enchanters like Sona/Soraka/Nami and in most of his videos he goes in detail as to why he thinks that.

Here's Thefwnk's guide for Pyke - Thefwnk lists Sona, Soraka, Lulu, Rakan, and Yuumi as some of his hardest counters.

The only person who thinks that Pyke's hardest counters are tanks is Hanjaro - a Master tier player. However at that level of play, people know how to stretch out games and shut Pyke down with any champion. He also lists most of the tank matchups as "skill matchups" and some of his information doesn't align with other guides of the same level.

Also, pretty much everyone in the Pykemains Discord agrees that Yuumi/Sona/Soraka/Nami are strong into Pyke.

#So, let's recap.

I've got 500,000 points and 700+ games of experience on Pyke. I've provided 3 separate websites that go in detail as to what counters Pyke with the highest results being Enchanters, not Tanks. I've also got multiple guides from players ranked anywhere from Gold-Diamond+ that list Enchanters as his hardest matchups. I also spend a lot of time in the Pykemains Discord, where we constantly debate about Pyke's performance and counters, the general consensus of which is that Enchanters tend to be his hardest matchups as they have the tools to beat him.

You've got anywhere from 1-4 votes on a Boards post, a website known for it's nonconstructive discussion where people with actual objective, statistical evidence get downvoted and bashed because they don't agree with the majority of people here, which by the way, is NOT representative of the playerbase at large, not by a long shot.

DuskDaUmbreonAug 23, 20192 votes

Upvoted for that amazing formatting alone.

The facts are a bonus, but damn that formatting.

HotarµAug 23, 20191 votes

Ty! <3

Looking forward to OP's response (if they even make one.)

CrazyMonkeyCZAug 22, 20194 votes

Lol, my comment made you to create entire thread on this topic.

Stats speaks differently, but I will believe in your words mr. ILUVTANKMETA.

Just listing Draven/Gankplank amongst the hardest champs is stupid and shows that you lack knowledge.

The thigh guyAug 22, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Lol, my comment made you to create entire thread on this topic.

Stats speaks differently, but I will believe in your words mr. ILUVTANKMETA.

Just listing Draven/Gankplank amongst the hardest champs is stupid and shows that you lack knowledge.

You clearly don’t know how to play either of the champions mr.rangehateboner

Sky CardisAug 22, 20194 votes

I just want to see the Summon Spell summoner 4 disappear and watch everyone panic about their 'gaming skillz' being in jeopardy because they can just flash in and ult/ability combo you to death. XD Watch the whole meta get flipped on it's head.

MagapiffAug 27, 20191 votes

a no flashes game mode actually sounds kinda fun as long as no one tryhards it, to bad riot killed off game modes and soon 3v3's for TFT

EkhasmAug 22, 20191 votes

Wrong. Gankplank is harder because of barrels, not lack of dashes lol. Old GP was braindead. Garen is braindead, etc.

preternaturalAug 22, 20191 votes

oh look, the 500k+ pyke main is saying that janna gives him a hard time. GEEE what have i been saying this whole time about janna on these boards? zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz