Riot, please finally address lifesteal so you can start putting everything else in line.

WoonStruck·Jan 14, 2017·75 votes·2,975 views

Physical on-hits/on-attacks (Graves, Draven, etc) should not apply to lifesteal. It causes the same issues that AoE vs DoT vs single target caused for Spellvamp. Lifesteal should apply to total AD, and possibly crit, ONLY.
Reduced effect vs minions who, outside of supers, now have 0 resistances and higher health unlike most prior seasons.
If you really want to balance lifesteal completely, make ranged heal 25% less. 75% instead of 100% value.

**After this, tune damage across the board so ADCs are actually capable of deciding for themselves whether or not they get to participate in games. **

No more mages being better assassins. No more high damage anti-carry tanks.

Melee carries have something they are explicitly better than ranged at, and helps with one of their core issues: survivability compared to ranged carries.

Game fix'd. At least more than it was.

40 Comments

ForgiveColourJan 15, 20179 votes

Mages shouldnt have range, burst, cc, utility, wave clear at the same time

But since theyre a mage its fine xddd

Master ArtoriaJan 15, 20174 votes

You mean like how how adc's have range, burst, cc, utility and wave clear?

The key difference between a mage and an adc is that if you catch them when they are either OOM or their abilities are on CD then they have no damage. A ADC on the other had is still going to bring damage, even if they can't cast an ability

ForgiveColourJan 15, 20178 votes

Did you just compared adc range burst cc utility wave clear to mages? LOOOOOOLLLLL LMAOOOOO

notice me Sin piJan 15, 20174 votes

only thing adc does better than mages is dps

WoonStruckJan 15, 20171 votes

Yeah, pretty much.

Mages are overloaded. There's a reason Baron Buff had to be made so absurd.

MunchCrunchLunchJan 14, 20178 votes

actually lifesteal should not apply to crit. because crit is an attack modifier its not an on hit phyiscal damage. so it should not be counted.

crit needs to be removed. dps needs a rework to make ad carries relevant earlier. and less stupid when ahead.

WoonStruckJan 14, 20174 votes

Crit is fine if properly managed from a balance perspective.

Crit is not properly managed in this game.

For starters, other games you often can't get higher than 50% effective crit chance.

Usually each item has an individual chance of proccing, with varying crit chance and crit damage. Only the strongest applies on any given attack.

Another factor is that, generally, the stronger an item's crit is, % crit damage-wise, the lower chance it has of proccing.

AD carries SHOULD NOT be more relevant early. They are hard carries. Hypercarries compared to all other classes. They should not have potent early games as well.

Ranged ADs should not automatically be made to be hypercarries, though. If that's what you mean, I'd agree.

Photos of GhostsJan 14, 20171 votes

Honestly I'm fine with them getting close to 100% crit lategame because it allows to differentiate items for different classes.

WoonStruckJan 14, 20175 votes

You don't need 100% crit to differentiate items for different classes.

What you said actually makes no sense.

Besides, if this game were properly balanced, people would be buying an item for that item's intended purpose.

The whole "X item should be exclusive to Y class" is exactly why Riot is so bad at balancing their game.

LordGeovanniJan 15, 20172 votes

People like to cry about crit being rng but the point of crit is to have that rng boost if its not significantly rng its effectiveness needs to be significantly reduced to something like 10%

Naomi CoffeeGoatJan 15, 20171 votes

It was removed when the armor pen builds existed for adcs in season 6. We saw how much of a shitstorm that was. Some liked it as they felt it was balanced because of no rng element, some hated it because it granted adcs early power spikes and let champs like lucian absolutely dominate their lane.

Spice POWAHJan 15, 20177 votes

I think lifesteal's biggest problem is that there's just so many sources of it.

They should just make lifesteal, at least, stack diminishingly with itself.

WoonStruckJan 15, 20178 votes

It shouldn't stack at all with itself.

You have Warlord's? No Doran's for you. No Bloodthirster for you. No BotRK for you.

Only the greatest source of lifesteal at any given time should apply.

Chaos689Jan 15, 201716 votes

No. That's just stupid. We already have ignite and morello and Mortal Reminder if ANYBODY EVER BUILDS MORE THAN ONE LIFESTEAL ITEM.

Lifesteal is FAR from a problem in any game unless you are against A: A Graves/Draven or B: Somebody so fed they can heal all their hp in a few hits, at which point that's not the real issue.

WoonStruckJan 15, 20176 votes

Gee, you don't think that sustain champs should be able to function just because ADs can stack lifesteal?

AnidanJan 15, 20177 votes

Unique Attack Modifiers inbound, bois! Or at the very least, making Lifesteal not stack, like you mentioned - largest value only.

That'd help solve that, since only one source of lifesteal could apply barring limited exceptions. You bought a Bloodthirster? Nothing else will stack with its lifesteal, not even another Bloodthirster. You have Warlords? That will only apply its lifesteal if it comes in a larger amount than any other form of lifesteal you have available. And so on. This also means non-lifesteal stat forms of attack healing, such as Aatrox's W, would add on in addition to lifesteal, making his draining more of his own trait, assuming Rito doesn't rework it out of his kit. This would allow Riot to give combat healing to people's kit directly rather than just appending a lifesteal stat if they want that champion to be able to buy Lifesteal (meaning Olaf and Lee wouldn't be able to buy any without making that part of their kit redundant).

SchàdenfreudeJan 15, 20174 votes

That moment when you get downvote bombed by salty ADC mains.

It's okay man.

Chaos689Jan 15, 20172 votes

Tell me how many times you've lost lane as Aatrox or Morg because the enemy Garen bought a BT and a Deaths Dance. Tell me how many times your enemy has bought multiple lifesteal items, enough to power through ignite or morello and win the lane.

Chaos689Jan 15, 20172 votes

Sustain champs: Garen/Mundo: I guess OK...

Nasus: No. A oneshotting tnak shouldn't have a free BT

Morg: Umm ok I guess?

Xin/Aatrox: Lul what even is an aatrox

Seeing as it's usually ONLY melee assassin/fighters and ADCs who buy lifesteal, yes, I do think it's very fair that they have a way to recover from either the enemy's poke and harass or the enemy ADC's damage - and the enemy ADC has LS too.

TeCoolMageJan 15, 20174 votes

the on-hit lifesteal scenario is completely different from aoe vs single target spell vamp.

on-hit effects are balanced around increasing damage dealt in the same scenario while survivability in teamfights and 1v1 duels have varying degrees of usefulness and AoE is more useful than single target in one than the other.

Also, single target abilities are almost always connected to a strong alternative effect like CC while AoE is usually more damage oriented. On-hit effects are always damage.

Champions like Shyvanna and Warwick enjoy on-hit effects, why should caitlyn and vayne benefit more simply because they get the same thing from different places

WoonStruckJan 15, 20171 votes

One could also argue that Cait and Vayne need to be changed. Mini-crits that can crit are an absurd thing for anyone to have in the first place.

Warwick and Shyvanna like on-hits, but neither gets ANY physical on-hits that benefit from lifesteal outside of BotRK which explicitly states that its on-hit heals. These changes would not affect Shyvanna or Warwick at all.

Xin, someone who would have been a better argument, would be negatively affected, but also benefit more than not from the change, since the only healing item he buys is BotRK and he has innate healing in his kit already. This change would also make it easier to balance him overall since his Q wouldn't 100% break him via sustain if he's viable anymore.

Also, single target/AoE has nothing to do with whether or not an ability has CC. Go look at every ability in the game. You'll find that AoE abilities have just as much CC as single target, if not greater.

Going alphabetically, up to Hecarim, there are 45 AoE abilities that have CC. 19 single target. I can keep going through all of the champions if you want though. It only gets worse.

TeCoolMageJan 16, 20171 votes

I said that the focus of single target abilities tend to be alternative effects, not that AoE always has low CC. And I was saying it under the context of champions that could buy the spellvamp items (including death's dance and old hextech gunblade).

Champions that buy at least some spellvamp/lifesteal rather than full tank stats with hard CC in spammable AoE abilities: Aatrox Anivia Annie (barely) AurelionSol Bard (barely) Chogath Darius Diana Draven Ekko Fiora Heimerdinger (barely) Janna Jax Jinx Lissandra Lux (barely) Nami RekSai Riven Sion Soraka (barely) Swain Syndra Taliyah (barely) Veigar Velkoz (barely, I think) Viktor Yasuo Yorick (barely) Zac Ziggs Zilean Zyra

Of these, the ones that are actually made to hit more than 2 targets (simply being able to hit more than two isn't enough, some abilities have an extremely tiny hitbox that makes hitting more than one guy based on luck), these ones are not focused on damage (either because they have some sort of mobility component, or the CC is more important) AurelionSol Chogath Darius Diana Draven Ekko Janna Jax Jinx Lissandra Nami RekSai Riven Sion Soraka Swain Syndra Veigar Velkoz Viktor Yasuo (questionable) Zac Ziggs Zilean Zyra

As for single target CC on champions that want the sustain stats over outright tankiness Ahri Amumu Annie (barely) Caitlyn Elise Fiddlesticks Gragas Irelia Ivern Jayce Jhin Karma Kennen (barely) Leblanc Leona Lulu Morgana Pantheon Renekton Rengar Ryze Singed TwistedFate Vayne Volibear Xerath XinZhao

Focused more on the CC or another component than damage Ahri Amumu Caitlyn Elise Fiddlesticks Gragas Irelia Ivern Jayce Jhin Karma Leblanc Leona Lulu Morgana Pantheon Renekton Rengar Ryze Singed TwistedFate Vayne Volibear Xerath XinZhao

There's a general rule with abilities: It's either AoE, damage, or CC you sacrifice per ability, unless there's some other extreme weakness that is emphasized heavily, there's a useless ability in the kit to compensate, or the ability is an ultimate.

Champions like Draven actually need the sustain more than Vayne and Caitlyn due to extreme need to be in a certain position after an auto attack which makes him take a lot more damage. Crit is simply broken, the problem is with that stat, not lifesteal. Other champions with physical on-hit like Kindred build a lot less AD and crit.

If crit didn't exist or was toned down, Draven would've relied on his Q damage more and his lifesteal would be fair. It's critical strike that's the problem.

Lifesteal does, however, pose another problem. It's 'just a stat' unlike spellvamp which had a few niche items but you feel its strength in that one item. Similar to the Rylai's problem, when you introduce something like sustain or slows to an entire class, the class becomes less unique. Lifesteal should be limited to items like Death's dance where it's niche not something that can 'just be built' like attack speed or AD. It's also the reason why Swain and Vlad tend to be very.. bleh. Their niche, healing from damage, is stolen by ADCs who don't treat sustain as a unique trait like it should be, instead they just treat it as a stat that happens to be around.

Big LincolnJan 14, 20172 votes

do think this would be a good start. Lifesteal and crit need to be given some big changes (adjusting Ashe in the same timespan) of we want them to be 'healthier'

I think supports need to be looked at as well

WoonStruckJan 14, 20171 votes

All of these changes would pretty much require a pass-over of the entire game...which is long since overdue anyway.

Supports would be included in that. More interactive gameplay like Nami/Braum, less of the Janna/Sona/Taric.

6SfoolJan 15, 20172 votes

I agree, except for that first point. On-hits are part of the basic attack, and it would not seem right if they did not count for lifesteal. But the reduced healing on range and minions I agree with. I think tanks should have better in-lane sustain than ranged champs, and that's not the case when someone builds bloodthirster. You also didn't mention grievous wounds, which is like a tourniquet on the entire issue of sustain- It's a horrible fix that lets you ignore a horrible problem.

WoonStruckJan 15, 20171 votes

Magic or True damage on-hits do not apply to lifesteal though. Just physical.

I agree on GW. However, Riot has shown time and time again that they don't want to remove it, no matter how many times they admit its a huge problem.

6SfoolJan 15, 20172 votes

I almost wished magic or true damage applied lifesteal, but for the most part those damage types are tied to ap champs with low ad, and that would lead to problems in itemization.

I think with grievous wounds it's just Riot's laziness in that they don't feel like reworking a stat that has such dramatic effects on the game. There have been many ideas for fixing it, but every one that doesn't just say "remove it" is too wordy to get any attention. I posted one about 2 weeks ago that turned grievous wounds into a flat value debuff, but you know what happens to in-depth posts. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/ij9BLbiH-my-solution-to-the-sustain-problem

General Esdeath Jan 15, 20172 votes

Yasuo : Crit only, you say? I agree

TheIronRevenantJan 15, 20172 votes

Tryndamere : Seconded

Backup4nowJan 15, 20171 votes

It causes the same issues that AoE vs DoT vs single target caused for Spellvamp.

How so? DoT and single target spellvamp were the same. AoE was reduced because you can apply it to many things at once. What is it about increasing your physical on-hit damage by something other than your AD and crit chance that equates to the problem of vamping off of multiple things at once? Besides Graves, of course.

Reduced effect vs minions

I might agree with this, but maybe not necessarily for the same reasons. WHY do you believe this? What role do you want Lifesteal to fulfill, if not for sustain? Do you want it to be a draintank stat? Clearly not, by some of the things you've posted here. You don't want it to stack, so you don't want it to be a strategy. If you nerf it on minions, you don't want it to be for sustain (and you'd have to nerf it on monsters too, since the original reason lifesteal was ever nerfed was because adcs went into jungle and got to full off of one camp). What do you want?

Ranged heal 25% less

Once again, I might agree with this, but why do you believe this? Remember, Lifesteal should be a marksman's ONLY defensive stat. Do you want marksmen to be weak early? Lifesteal cuts aren't the way to do it, lol. They should be weak to all-in and getting caught, and nerfing lifesteal only makes them weaker to poke.

WoonStruckJan 15, 20171 votes

{quoted}

How so? DoT and single target spellvamp were the same. Both DoT and AoE had 1/3 effectiveness.

The problem with Spellvamp is that it wasn't a straightforward stat to balance because some champions intrinsically got much, much greater effect out of it. The same can be seen with lifesteal based off of range and on-hit physical damage.

Ranged champions with on-hit physical damage get much, much greater effective use out of lifesteal than a melee without it even if that melee builds full AD and even if they stack lifesteal.

I might agree with this, but maybe not necessarily for the same reasons. WHY do you believe this? What role do you want Lifesteal to fulfill, if not for sustain? Do you want it to be a draintank stat? Clearly not, by some of the things you've posted here. You don't want it to stack, so you don't want it to be a strategy. If you nerf it on minions, you don't want it to be for sustain (and you'd have to nerf it on monsters too, since the original reason lifesteal was ever nerfed was because adcs went into jungle and got to full off of one camp). What do you want?

The reason for the reduction is simply that ranged have a much, much easier time applying the stat than melee. Something's got to give if melee ADCs are ever going to end up viable in this game without being absurdly broken to accomplish it.

Lifesteal should not be a drain-tanking stat in the sense that most people think of it. It should be a tool that effectively increases your HP. While its 'basically' the same thing, the difference is healing 100-300% of your health over the duration of the fight and getting around 30-80% more effective health over the duration of a fight. One is much, much healthier and manageable from a balance perspective.

Stacking lifesteal should not be a 'strategy' because it becomes an uninteractive stat-check gimmick. You just right click and win if they don't 1 shot you, even if they have more tankiness and damage.

Nerfing it on minions still lets it be for sustain...it just puts it more in line with previous seasons where lifesteal was more balanced. Minions had resistances back then, which effectively accomplished the same thing. At some point Riot removed resistances and increased HP because some people were terrible at last hitting. It wouldn't be an issue in the jungle because camps already have resistances.

Once again, I might agree with this, but why do you believe this? Remember, Lifesteal should be a marksman's ONLY defensive stat. Do you want marksmen to be weak early? Lifesteal cuts aren't the way to do it, lol. They should be weak to all-in and getting caught, and nerfing lifesteal only makes them weaker to poke.

Lifesteal should not be a marksman's only defensive stat. Back when marksmen functioned a bit more healthily they'd often buy a Randuin's Omen, Banshee's Veil, or QSS (back when it couldn't be upgraded). There was no issue with this. Giving up damage in order to survive a situation that will be occurring in a match is not bad for the game in any way, shape, or form. Half of the game's issues right now come from the fact that ADCs are now balanced around 6 damage items, unlike in the past.

Lifesteal cuts ARE the way to do it. Its not about making them weak early, its about adjusting mid-late game lifesteal to a healthy, more balanced state and adjusting the rest of the game around it to solve all of the other HUGE, GLARING issues the game has at the moment. One of which is anything that isn't an ADC/Support effectively functioning as an assassin.

Right now, everything HAS to effectively function as an assassin because lifesteal is so strong later in the game. ADCs would be invincible if divers, mages, and even some tanks couldn't practically 100-0 them. However, 100-0 patterns as a standard are not healthy.

Backup4nowJan 16, 20171 votes

Ranged champions with on-hit physical damage get much, much greater effective use

Dealing more damage, and thus stealing more health, is kind of the point of lifesteal. Who cares what's adding the physical damage? That is in no way comparable to applying spellvamp to multiple units at once, it's more comparable to a mage having very strong, very consistent dps vs one that doesn't, and that's not an issue at all. Saying the stat is stronger on some champs than others is not a good argument either; obviously, malphite won't get as much use out of lifesteal as a high physical dps character. Having a stat be better on some characters is not a problem.

Something's got to give if melee ADCs are ever going to end up viable

Lifesteal imbalance isn't what's making melee adc's unviable. You could give melee adcs a +1000% lifesteal buff during teamfights, and nothing would change; they'd either get stunned and die instantly, or kill everything: exactly the same scenario as now. More likely the former. Additionally, lifesteal ALREADY doesn't heal someone's healthbar multiple times over in a teamfight. We're not talking about old Sion, here, we're talking about ADCs that get bursted to 1 hp and then heal back to half, which is very close to what you're suggesting.

An ADC, believe it or not, only gets like 20% lifesteal on average during a fight; being warlords+bork or mercurial, or a bloodthirster. Stacking lifesteal is not a viable strategy as-is; that's why you don't see ADCs with a bork, bloodthirster, mercurial, and warlords all stacked at once. Even if you did, they'd be better off with one lifesteal item at most, and it only works because they're way ahead. It's currently a way to stay in the fight if you didn't die instantly, not a way to just stand still and deal as much DPS as possible to regen it all back, like actual draintanks.

Right now, everything HAS to effectively function as an assassin because lifesteal is so strong later in the game.

No, everything has to function as an assassin because the peel and damage in the game is so incredibly high, that if you don't kill them instantly they'll be healed back to full and saved by summoner heal, redemption, locket, face o t mountain, flash, and exhaust. Then you die instantly, because defense is pretty meaningless when you're focused by the damage character in this damage-saturated gamestate. In previous seasons, you needed dedicated peelers to keep your adc from being run down by divers; now, any team just builds certain items and picks exhaust, and this very fact is what is letting people go 6 damage items: Just let the team peel and item me to victory! No need to build defense. Lifesteal isn't the issue here.

That's not to say I don't want lifesteal changed in some way. It's just that I don't agree with why you want these changes.

ReZisT LustJan 15, 20171 votes

If draven cant heal off axs rip lol

statelesskillerJan 15, 20173 votes

he would be able to heal off them, just not the bonus AD from them is what he is suggesting

Pentium2Jan 15, 20171 votes

That would be a ridiculous nerf, but I would be fine with it if they remove the vision of the axe markers for the enemy team.

But then why can Vayne crit on her bonusdmg on her Q? That's still busted.

ReZisT LustJan 15, 20171 votes

i now it was a joke on how his q just makes him start spinin.

SmileInABoxJan 15, 20171 votes

While I'm not a fan of nerfing lifesteal, it could get rid of those clutch 1 v 2 moments where you survive through good positioning and Warlords, I'm all for it if it's lets ADCs actually itemize differently or helps make them feel less feast or famine.

WoonStruckJan 15, 20171 votes

Crit needs to be a tool, not a crutch.

Lifesteal needs to be a tool, not a crutch.

Then ADCs can itemize in ways that don't combine the two in the most excessive way possible in order to attempt to stat-check everything to death.

Stat-check, by nature, is extremely feast/famine.

Removing the issue allows ADCs to be balanced in ways that are not feast/famine in nature. The problem is the effort it would take to do this because the rest of the game would have to be dialed back, and it needs to be either way, in order to accommodate the new patterns of ADCs.

agbudarJan 15, 20171 votes

Nasus stackkers would never be played anymore they would all play ap/splitpush nasus as that would be the only viable method of playing.

this champ would be COMPLETELY destroyed half of his tankyness comes from the fact that he can sustain of his onhit effects.

WoonStruckJan 15, 20172 votes

Half of his problems (reasons he gets nerfed) also come from the fact that he can sustain on his on-hits, considering the fact that its impossible to avoid his Q and his E reduces armor significantly.

Also, his passive/Q could always be modified somewhat, like Yorick's, if it REALLY needed to be there.

Its really not that hard to find work-arounds for specific cases.