This isn't complaining about how op thresh is. It's actually really cool how many different things that thresh cam actually do. He is hands down the most versatile support. I wish that there were other champions who had as many options as thresh.
SEKAI41 votesI wish that there were other champions who had as many options as thresh.
There is a thing called too much utility, just like you can have too much damage. Utility is not just something free and independent of power budget calculation, but Riot seem to just forget that sometimes.
Thresh is a cancer. It should be target treated and reduced.
KONO RUBICK DA15 votesthresh doesn't have free utility, nothing is free in his kit, he has 47% win rate and i wish people would stop complaining about him already
SEKAI21 votes[{quoted}](name=Im ur Blitzcrank,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3e3hG8ZF,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2017-08-02T11:10:22.823+0000)
thresh doesn't have free utility, nothing is free in his kit, he has 47% win rate and i wish people would stop complaining about him already
According to OPGG, he has a 49.7% win rate while sporting a 27.15% pick rate and a 51.16% ban rate. Even just at a slightest glance, anyone would conclude that this champ definitely needs some solid QQ.
KONO RUBICK DA11 votesi'm not playing in korea, i don't know why i would take stats from korea, and i know that riot balance around only one region
That isn't a champ who doesn't deserve some QQ even at the slightest glance.
that is your own vision, and you should just say that you hate him yourself but then, don't try to make it sound like everyone should hate thresh with things like "free utilty" "too much utility" because nothing is free in thresh kit
his cd are hilariously high his tankiness is low af his spells are delayed his damage is low compared to alistar/braum/blitzcrank
SEKAI7 votes[{quoted}](name=Im ur Blitzcrank,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3e3hG8ZF,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2017-08-02T11:19:09.232+0000)
i'm not playing in korea, i don't know why i would take stats from korea, and i know that riot balance around only one region
It's almost like KR is better at League than NA on average and so their perspective on the game balance is more valuable.
When Thresh is capable of achieving 50% pick rate despite the massive pick rate, and that half of the Plat+ community in KR straight up ban him outright. It proves Thresh's problem, too much utility. Just because NA on average sucks at bringing his dreadfully unfair utility out and use it to its potential, it doesn't make the champ balanced.
There is a reason why he's also very high up in the pick/ban in pro scenes as soon as he arrived on the roster, and has been there for god knows how long already. He is a generalist, not only that, he does everything far better than "just average". And it's a problem.
that is your own vision, and you should just say that you hate him yourself but then, don't try to make it sound like everyone should hate thresh with things like "free utilty" "too much utility" because nothing is free in thresh kit
his cd are hilariously high his tankiness is low af his spells are delayed his damage is low compared to alistar/braum/blitzcrank
Yes I hate him, did I say otherwise? I have my reasons to hate him, justified too, does that trigger you?
Your comparison with other supports also make no sense, because you dodged the biggest problem and why I even posted the comment in the first place: He has too much utility, which is the thing he's actually valued by.
You also convenitnely forgot that Thresh is actually a ranged support. Yeah don't you think you're actually comparing him with tank supports to be an actual problem in and of itself?
...................
Also the hook's hitbox is still broken, the same goes for Blitz. Fix it already.
KONO RUBICK DA10 votesIt's almost like KR is better at League than NA on average and so their perspective on the game balance is more valuable.
teach that to riot then, until then i don't care about kr
There is a reason why he's also very high up in the pick/ban in pro scenes as soon as he arrived on the roster,
pro scene is not solo queue, and pro scene didn't play on 7.15 where thresh has been massively nerfed
Yes I hate him, did I say otherwise? I have my reasons to hate him, justified too, does that trigger you?
yes, how you try to make your hate seem like a fact about thresh being cancer
He has too much utility
he has as much utility as any other support if a support has less utility than him, then they have more damage which makes it balanced
Yeah don't you think you're actually comparing him with tank supports to be an actual problem in and of itself?
you can compare him with any support, except if they're outdated like sona/janna they will have as much utility than him
do it with lulu karma i will watch, and don't forget ANYTHING like their ability to reveal stealth with a point and click spell
SEKAI2 votesYes, because there are more busted champs out there doesn't mean Thresh is not a problem also.
Lulu will get her own thread, oh boy would we have some fun in that (I'm not too sure about Karma tho). I only brought Thresh up because this thread is about him.
TyrekGoldenspear10 votesI think you are mistaken about Thresh.
He cannot do everything as you claim.
The more accurate description of his kit is that he can move people from one place to another.
Q moves the enemy, W moves the enemy, E moves allies and shields the. R slows them down.
Now let me tell you what he can't do.
He cannot survive a poke lane becuase he has no sustain.
Unless he builds damage, he is not dealing damage.
He cannot poke on his own.
He is maddeningly squishy until he farms a ton of souls, which makes him vulnerable.
Any more questions/concerns?
SEKAI5 votesI think you are mistaken about Thresh.
He cannot do everything as you claim.
The more accurate description of his kit is that he can move people from one place to another.
Q moves the enemy, W moves the enemy, E moves allies and shields the. R slows them down.
Now let me tell you what he can't do.
He cannot survive a poke lane becuase he has no sustain.
Unless he builds damage, he is not dealing damage.
He cannot poke on his own.
He is maddeningly squishy until he farms a ton of souls, which makes him vulnerable.
Any more questions/concerns?
You got his W and E backwards. But aye.
Thresh can use Lantern and toss it on the ground for as a shield "power node", most Thresh does this when harassed and poked. Souls also give him armour. So he's not that vulnerable to pokes. Thresh also build Targon route, it gives him and his lane partner more sustain.
EDIT: He also doesn't need raw sustain, because he has the HOOK, that zone enemies back whenever it's off CD.
Thresh is a support, he does not need damage, he's prized for his utility which he has more than plenty. Not to mention his soul farming also gives him bonus AA damage, so it's not like he doesn't have damage or is incapable of poking on his own (remember he's ranged, so his AA can reach a bit to poke).
He's also a ranged support, who is meant to have a bad time CS'ing hence not capable of building Targon route. But Thresh can, thanks to the bonus AA damage that's there for no reason, just so he can have more shields and other lane sustain.
"Too much utility" also extend to things like "self-covering" or whatever it's called. This happens when a champ have so much in their kit they literally fixed their intended weakness. Thresh is one of them. Because when your kit is a little too big, things like this is really easy to happen, that's why giving a champ too much utility, and worse it's scattered across multiple spells and not just overloading it all into one, is always a bad idea.
oSEXYPLATYPUSo6 votesthresh starts the game game with 16 base armor that dont scale per lvl he has the lowest armor in game ... the only way his armor gets stronger is via his passive collecting souls and buy building armor and when you are in bot lane with 16 base armor vs AN ADC ALL GAME that is a clear weakness so he is very very vulnerable to poke cuz he is a front line champ he isnt jana, raka sitting in the back spaming heals and shields
SEKAI3 votes[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3e3hG8ZF,comment-id=0002000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-08-02T12:43:17.202+0000)
thresh starts the game game with 16 base armor that dont scale per lvl he has the lowest armor in game ... the only way his armor gets stronger is via his passive collecting souls and buy building armor and when you are in bot lane with 16 base armor vs AN ADC ALL GAME that is a clear weakness so he is very very vulnerable to poke cuz he is a front line champ he isnt jana, raka sitting in the back spaming heals and shields
He has Targon sustain, his bonus AA damage and it being ranged allows him to at least poke back a bit if he has to (that and, it also means he won't be standing at the very front so his tankiness is less of a problem), he has Lantern shield and later that passive shield from Targon, Thresh typically go Courage for keystone, he gets more armour just by standing in the bot lane and occasionally roam the ally jungle, and he has big zoning when his Q is off CD (this one is HUGE).
I'm not sure if there are other things I've missed.
When all of these are factored in, he isn't exactly what we call "very very vulnerable to poke". Again, he's not a front line champ, he's not a tank support, and he's also ranged himself, he's got tools to take care of himself for the most part, and he has a god damn hook so less poke to begin with. He isn't the squishies champ in the world, far from it.
oSEXYPLATYPUSo3 voteshe cant proc the execute passive with relic shield.. he has to legit last hit to get the heal proc passive and gold share... he auto attacks are listed as range so the execute passive on relic shield don t work so that takes another skill curve to over come to be effective on him most are now running coin on him.
his lantern shield ? if he burns it to shield himself from poke then he dont have it to make a play to bring in jungler for gank or to pick adc /teammate out of a bad spot to save him Cooldown: 22/20.5/19/17.5/16 it has very long cool down
his Q cd Cooldown: 20/18/16/14/12 which is a skill shot, has a wind up animation that is very easy to tell when he wants to use it, it is slower then BLITZ Q which is instant cast
he has TONS of weaknesses... high cooldown... none ideal starting items, bad base armor ...
thresh is a champ of great utility, a high skill cap... who scales through the game
and if you go look at his win % vs game time graph his win rate pre 25 mins is shit and it hits a spike at 25 min game time , clearly shows he is a scaling support which is very very rare ... and unique in the game therefore you have to get through his shit early game til he scales and is truly effective
LethalTempo Jhin1 votes1.
teach that to riot then, until then i don't care about kr
That's your problem. Chances are that the top players from the strongest region will know what's particularly strong.
2.
pro scene is not solo queue, and pro scene didn't play on 7.15 where thresh has been massively nerfed
While patches are generally targeted around soloQ, with the exceptions of:
Worlds/MSI
specific outliers (
; Lethality 
(I don't mention 
because he wasn't redside permaban IIRC); the unholy trinity of 
; support 
; even pre-nerf 
; 
Thresh was overperforming in solo queue and that was clear ever since midseason patch. His winrate spiked like number 2 or 3 IIRC.
And I don't call the bugfix a nerf. In reality, yes, it was a nerf, but it was a removal of an interaction that shouldn't have existed in the first place.
This is from the tooltip (from Thresh's league wiki page:
Flay
ACTIVE: Thresh sweeps his chain in a broad line towards the target direction, dealing magic damage to enemies hit, knocking them in the chain's direction, and slowing them afterwards for 1 second.
Show me where one word about stunning Flayed targets for a brief moment after displacing them. If you tell me it doesn't exist, that interaction was bullshit to begin with and shouldn't have been there at all.
3.
he has as much utility as any other support
if a support has less utility than him, then they have more damage which makes it balanced
Let's list his abilities:
Q - hook, same range as Nautilus, higher than Blitzcrank; is non-commital compared to the other 2, stuns for 1,5s, reduces cooldown by 3s on-hit (ANYTHING), trajectory is hard-to read because of the animation, janky hitbox as well.
W - gives vision, picks up souls lying around it, gives a shield with infinite scaling, pick-up range is twice as big as deploy range.
E - gives AA bonus damage when charged, provides a lockdown from your hook engage/disengage, slows targets hit
R - lockdown/disengage, brutally slows first champion, deals quite a lot of damage actually
Tell me what champion has as much utility as him and does even comparable damage. Name me like 2 or 3 champions that do nearly enough things as Thresh does.
hsumis1ove1 votesReworked Galio before they nerfed him.
oSEXYPLATYPUSo5 votesso just curious, thresh is a popular champion that alot people play. and picked alot? and played alot... so would it be safe to assume cuz a lot of people are playing the champ and over time from playing become very effective on him and his mechanics therefore maintain a soild win rate because they actually got good at him?
and if so many are picking and playing it will take time to get good at him due to the skill cap his kit has... so until you have put in the time and work to be good on him you would be playing him less effectively and therefore by sheer masses of playing him would bring his win rate down , if you have less then 50 games on his win rate is far lower then people who have 200+ games meaning as you play him more the better you are with him
the stats you provided from op.gg is for plat + so the argument that "bad players" such as gold and below bring down his win rate is thrown out cuz that isnt included in the stats.
the stats i provided were for THIS PATCH , all regions for plat +
he gets played alot due to the diversity in his kit, cuz he can do many things has such great utility and play making abilities. but with out taking the time to learn him and the game and practice him he is in effective just as any other champ.
Ariel the Cruel2 votesAlso the hook's hitbox is still broken, the same goes for Blitz. Fix it already.
From my understanding, Thresh hook is working an intended. Two things to keep in mind about Thresh hook:
I don't know about Blitz. I don't run him so I can't check it either.
THE RlVER KlNG4 votesTo be fair you are convinced that Thresh is the most balanced and perfectly designed champion in the game
KONO RUBICK DA3 votesmost balanced? yes he is, 47% win rate is more than balanced he returned to what he was before 7.9 which is the patch that buffed him
perfectly designed? never said that, most problematic part with thresh is that he doesn't use the souls he captures unlike soulstealer in dota2, they just give bonus armor and bonus ap (which is useless)
oSEXYPLATYPUSo5 votesThresh has a win rate 47.61% for Platinum+ players whilst the very best Thresh's are earning a win rate of 55.96% with the average rank of these top players being in Diamond I.
LoLalytics ranks Thresh at 101 amongst all champions earning a tier grade of Gold.
This ranking takes into account the win rate of Platinum+ players, the pick/ban influence of Thresh, the win rate and average rank of the best Thresh players.
http://current.lolalytics.com/champion/Thresh/
his win rate went from roughly 52-53% down to 47.61% this patch after a bug fix on his E
Thresh's E - Flay no longer leaves enemies stunned for a brief moment after displacing them http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-715-notes#patch-bugfixes
SEKAI2 votes[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3e3hG8ZF,comment-id=0002000000000001,timestamp=2017-08-02T11:45:20.651+0000)
his win rate went from roughly 52-53% down to 47.61% this patch after a bug fix on his E
This is still in adjusting period. We'll see if that his win rate would just stay there (if so, good, because his pick rate is sky high anyway which makes sense for lower win rate), or if it doesn't, welll...
I doubt his win rate would just stay there tho, given how much utility he has in his kit. Especially that lantern, arguably the biggest wildcard in the kit.
oSEXYPLATYPUSo4 votesan adjustment period ? that is taken in account 17 million + games
and his win rate is that
SEKAI2 votes[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3e3hG8ZF,comment-id=000200000000000100000000,timestamp=2017-08-02T11:55:34.636+0000)
an adjustment period ? that is taken in account 17 million + games
and his win rate is that
Yeah but there are so many Thresh players. How many games have they played individually after the patch, 5, 10, 20 on average?
KONO RUBICK DA4 voteshow is a thresh player going to change his playstyle with that E bugfixe?
oSEXYPLATYPUSo2 votesTop Thresh's Worldwide
55.96% Win Rate
Analyzing 2600 games played by the top 488 Thresh players worldwide over the last 7 days. The average rank of the top Thresh's was Diamond I.
Taking into account win rate and summoner rank Thresh is ranked 39 amongst all champions in the hands of an expert.
Maximum 50 summoners are used per region with a minimum of Diamond V and 50 games played on Thresh to be elegible
Hyperiön1 votesAccording to OPGG, he has a 49.7% win rate while sporting a 27.15% pick rate and a 51.16% ban rate.
A high pickrate, low WR - This is what you call balanced. Its not like he is sporting a 55% WR with that high of a PR.
SEKAI1 votes[{quoted}](name=FF Hyperion,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3e3hG8ZF,comment-id=0002000000000003,timestamp=2017-08-03T13:42:40.064+0000)
A high pickrate, low WR - This is what you call balanced. Its not like he is sporting a 55% WR with that high of a PR.
0.3% off 50% is not "low".
It will be low if we're talking about 46-47% or something more drastic, now that's something what we usually expect from either a highly played champs or a very feast-famine one. Not 49.7%.
Hyperiön1 votes0.3% off 50% is not "low".
It will be low if we're talking about 46-47% or something more drastic, now that's something what we usually expect from either a highly played champs or a very feast-famine one. Not 49.7%.
Look at the top supports right now. Janna has almost a 56% wr, Sona is at a 53% wr, Taric and Soraka are at a 52% wr.
Thresh it sitting at number 11 wr wise.
SEKAI1 votes[{quoted}](name=FF Hyperion,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3e3hG8ZF,comment-id=000200000000000300000000,timestamp=2017-08-03T15:08:55.900+0000)
Look at the top supports right now. Janna has almost a 56% wr, Sona is at a 53% wr, Taric and Soraka are at a 52% wr.
Thresh it sitting at number 11 wr wise.
Only Janna has a play rate comparable with Thresh, rest outside of 1 don't even reach the theoretical average play rate which ofc means their win rate can be slightly higher (plat above).
Just because Janna is a bigger trouble, doesn't mean Thresh can't be one too.
This thread is in the end about Thresh, that's why I brought him up.
Vallalan1 votesthey haven't forgotten. if you watch ghostcrawler's latest video about what makes a successful champion thresh is one of the champions he looks at. they have 5 pillars and one of this is "fair to play against". He said Thresh falls short in this category because when played properly he feels he has too many tools. He has an answer potentially for every situation which means its hard to find a window to abuse him.
Highly recommend the video, btw. It is a good insight to how Riot looks at champions and you can see they are well aware of their own failures and successes.
It gives me a lot of confidence in their team. Yeah they inevitably will fuck up at some point, but they have a good basis for what makes a healthy/successful champion.
SEKAI1 votes[{quoted}](name=Charlie Loves U,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3e3hG8ZF,comment-id=00020003,timestamp=2017-08-03T01:31:48.738+0000)
they haven't forgotten. if you watch ghostcrawler's latest video about what makes a successful champion thresh is one of the champions he looks at. they have 5 pillars and one of this is "fair to play against". He said Thresh falls short in this category because when played properly he feels he has too many tools. He has an answer potentially for every situation which means its hard to find a window to abuse him.
Highly recommend the video, btw. It is a good insight to how Riot looks at champions and you can see they are well aware of their own failures and successes.
It gives me a lot of confidence in their team. Yeah they inevitably will fuck up at some point, but they have a good basis for what makes a healthy/successful champion.
I didn't watch the vid before (have now).
That's good to hear. It gives me some confidence in Riot's design and balance teams at least, which is just what we all need.
For those who are interested it's this one (I think)
hsumis1ove1 votesReworked Galio lol.
OHminus1 votesThresh isn't the cancer in the bot lane. He's the third worst offender imo
Ahristocats12 votes
Salson4 votesTrue, but damn, dude when was the last time you were below Plat. No Bronze-Silver-Gold is going to spend 6300 on a support (Lulu is only 4800 since recently).
The one exception is Thresh, probably because of #MadHookSkills or some other bullshit. He is fine overall, but do you really think he's not overloaded compared to Blic?
KONO RUBICK DA7 votesblitz has more burst and more engage than thresh, and more tankiness better base stats, mana shield while you build glory and abyssal mask
his W bonus ms into instant hook is a better engage than thresh no bonus ms into delayed hook he has a higher base AD hook deals 300 damage+AA+ AA reset with E double damage+R passive into R active can remove 60% of an adc hp (more if you take thunderlord)
W attack speed and R passive also allows for a better DPS
blitz has less utility than thresh, but compensates it with something else
Jmman2 votesThresh hook has a 1.5 stun and can decide weither or not to go in. Thresh also has free scaling from souls. He is more tanky than blitz. Both have a knock up thresh is aoe blitz is single target and have to melee them. Thresh knocks them which way you want too. Lantern is hands down better then overdrive. Blitz ult is more damage but thresh ult does good damage with a lot of cc.
Blitz is a better at engaging for sure. But thresh can engage almost as well. while bring friends in / out of the fight. Blitz has counter play. Tank jump in front of hook or dodge it. Thresh counter play is hope you can jump or ward on the lantern at the right time. Both and hook hit boxes are jacked.
What happens is if thresh is left on the table the support fills like he has to pick him weather they are good or not with him. Because if the other team is good with them you lost bot lane.
50000000000000006 votesthe "free scaling" he pays for by not having any natural armor growth
KONO RUBICK DA4 votesalso gets bypassed by LW
Jmman1 votesYea that sounds soo cool to say.... lets look at what is really happening. Tanks supports get about 4 ac a level. Meaning that is thresh gets 4 souls per lvl he will be the same. If he get more then he is ahead. But he also get AP with the souls this makes is skills do more damage. (after 40 souls I think its .5 ap and ac per soul)
But he has a ranged attack for poke. Blitz don't have this. But you are talking about 10 to 20 less armory early game to have "free scaling" late game. yea give that to blitz and the QQ would be endless.
I would love for them to take away the soul things and give him armor. But there will be a reason all the thresh player will complain. average is 100 to 150 in 45 mins game by my research and asking thresh friend. That is 95 to 70 armor gained. Tank support get 68 ac. So on average thresh will have 2 to 27 more ac. Yep that is bad. We should remove it.
50000000000000003 votesSince you're using Blitzcrank to compare, let's actually look at their stats.
Thresh starts at 16 armor and gets additional armor from souls (and items). Blitzcrank starts at 24.4 armor and gains 4 per level, ending at 92.4 armor. Each soul gives 0.75 armor (and AP), so to catch up with Blitzcrank, Thresh needs 11+5/level souls to have the same amount of armor. Thresh also has slightly less hp and significantly lower hp regen. On top of that, Blitzcrank has his mana barrier. Until mid to late game, Thresh is going to be squishier than most (all?) other tank supports. By level 6, Thresh needs 41 souls to be even in armor with Blitzcrank. By level 11, Thresh needs 66 souls.
On top of that, You can deny Thresh his souls by pushing or punishing him when he goes for them. He can't use W to collect souls often, because of the mana cost and cooldown. If you deny them, his armor scaling is going to suffer.
Just to clarify: I'm not saying he gets less armor than other tank supports. I'm saying that he relies on soul collection to get his "base" armor up, which has counterplay.
Jmman1 votesLoving how you are trying to make thresh sound weak and bad. you point out blitz shield. But what if its on a long CD. you can't poke it then is on CD.
When blitz grab is down he is useless. Thresh can still lantern people in or out and a ranged aoe knock u[/back/or forward.
I'm sure you play him because I didn't know it was changed to .75 instead of 1 per lvl. But you are also looking at the grass is greening on the other side and forget all his CC and utility compared to Biltz. I don't ban blitz because you can dodge a grab to beat him. That is not the case for Thresh and when I play support I will ALWAYS ban him. he is the most overload champ in lol. 2nd is lee.
warmcorntortilla9 votesThresh has Yasuo syndrome. An average Thresh is bleh, but a good Thresh has basically no counterplay, because he can do everything your champion can do, as good or better, and there's not jack shit you can do about it. A good Thresh makes sure you can never punish positioning failures, he peels, he picks, he engages, he disengages, he offers a shield/heal, he has his own infinity scaling, he has bonus damage for ranged harass, gets tanky af late game, blah, blah, blah, he does EVERYTHING well.
Does your average Thresh player play him that well? Probably not. But the CHAMPION has no weaknesses, and when he's in the right hands he can just roflstomp your whole game with impunity. If you're not That Thresh Main, and you let him slip through the ban phase, and the other support is That Thresh Main, you have just fucked yourself, and your whole team.
Ban him. Ban him. Or experience 
Nea1045 votesThe same coder/rioter made Tresh and Yasuo, indeed. Good job...
Ariel the Cruel2 voteshe does EVERYTHING well.
Fun trivia: CT admitted he didn't design Thresh to be a support. He wanted to make a champion that could go anywhere and it just happened to fit into the 1 support per year slot (Yes, that used to be a thing).
TotalJerk2 votesEarly into his release he was actually a pretty cheesy ADC and Top Laner. They nerfed his ass directly into the support role and now he isn't viable anywhere else.
TotalJerk1 votesThresh is countered pretty hard by 
, and he used to be countered by before they added a delay on his voidlings because Malz could block his hooks. Now Malzahar is only a soft counter.
His primary weakness is he is tied for one of the lowest base armors in the game, giving him a particularly weak early game, and being forced to collect souls to scale with everyone else means he is vulnerable to being poked down whenever he attempts to collect them.
hsumis1ove1 votesDon't forget the off meta picks such as shaco support lol. He can still do the Malzahar voiding trick.
TotalJerk1 votesThe voidlings spawn so slow you'd have to predict the hooks to block them. Before Malzahar could block hooks on reaction.
hsumis1ove1 votesya, shaco can still do this.
deadlychuck1 votesDoes your average Thresh player play him that well?
What i find funny about this, is that it doesn't even matter how well the average thresh player can play. All that matters is how relatively good a thresh player is. Even if you're against that average thresh player, it's because you're an average w/e player, and as a result, that thresh will basically always feel like he has no counterplay.
