Why does it do an aids amount of max HP true damage in addition to 20 / 30 / 40 / 50 / 60 flat true damage. Can we honestly remove this flat true damage? It's not a huge nerf but we'd get somewhere..
67chrome36 votesWhy does it do an aids amount of max HP true damage in addition to 20 / 30 / 40 / 50 / 60 flat true damage.
Doesn't aids specifically not do damage? Thought the way that disease worked is it shuts down you immune system so something like the common cold can slowly kill you, where it's not directly doing any damage itself.
JedenVojak8 votesDoesn't aids specifically not do damage? Thought the way that disease worked is it shuts down you immune system so something like the common cold can slowly kill you, where it's not directly doing any damage itself.
Heh. Take my upvotes sir.
Why does it do an aids amount of max HP true damage in addition to 20 / 30 / 40 / 50 / 60 flat true damage. Can we honestly remove this flat true damage? It's not a huge nerf but we'd get somewhere..
Vayne's will typically take Silver Bolts at 2nd level and level it second, prioritizing their Q. At second level against, say, Ashe, the silver bolt proc will do about 26 damage, 5.85 damage being 4% of Ashe's max health. Even against Braum that's only 6.39 damage from the percentage max health bonus. And that's once every 3 auto attacks, making the average per-attack bonus damage only 9. The second level of this ability will then come at lv 8, by which point 30 damage is a non-factor. I messed up here, the damage should be 43.4 and 45.6 damage respectively, which is about 15 damage per auto attack.
For comparison:
gets +10% of his AD on every auto attack all the time - since they will typically sit on around 72-80 AD at the first level (from runes in masteries) thats 7-8 damage on every auto attack right from level 1. He also has an escape, and long ranged poke, which Vayne does not.
gets +30%-50% on an auto attack after every spell cast (so 22-24 dmg roughly), which can also crit, while also having a dash, poke, and minion penetrating spells.
gets a 50% bonus damage shot every 7/6/5 shots (about 35-40 dmg lv 1, or 5ish damage per auto) which don't have to all be made against the same target, will ignore 50% of armor, while also out-ranging Vayne.
%of AD is typically much more powerful of a bonus than %max health, especially early game, where health totals are so low that the bonus damage is less than minion auto attacks.
Teslyn3 votesmath OP
Phil Fly3 votesVayne's will typically take Silver Bolts at 2nd level and level it second, prioritizing their Q. At second level against, say, Ashe, the silver bolt proc will do about 26 damage, 5.85 damage being 4% of Ashe's max health. Even against Braum that's only 6.39 damage from the percentage max health bonus. And that's once every 3 auto attacks, making the average per-attack bonus damage only 9. The second level of this ability will then come at lv 8, by which point 30 damage is a non-factor.
with your math, lvl 2 ashe has 146 hp at level 2, and braum has 160.
with CORRECT math, silver bolts will deal a total of 20+23.4=43.4 damage to a lvl 2 ashe, and 20+25.6=45.6 damage to lvl 2 braum.
JedenVojak2 votes[{quoted}](name=Phil Fly,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3cbnyn3W,comment-id=000100000001,timestamp=2015-08-12T17:56:56.351+0000)
with your math, lvl 2 ashe has 146 hp at level 2, and braum has 160.
with CORRECT math, silver bolts will deal a total of 20+23.4=43.4 damage to a lvl 2 ashe, and 20+25.6=45.6 damage to lvl 2 braum.
Ah, yes you're correct. Man I'm tired.
So, that's roughly 15 extra damage per auto attack if she can get 3 stacks on her opponent. Which is certainly respectable, but at those low levels she's gonna have like what, a .7 attack speed? Even with the auto attack to tumble reset, it's gonna take like 3 seconds to get off, and with 2 people they can easily punish that.
Remember, the caster minions have 21 ad at first level and Vayne must auto attack to do damage, all you have to do is position back a bit and force her to engage on you and she's eating a face full of minion pie.
Also, remember that that extra damage comes at the expense of an actual ability slot, and while it may seem damagy, is it really more powerful than a whole extra attack?
OyddAWqJ5r8 votesYup, and meanwhile every other marksman presses Q and does nearly double that at double the range.
But you know, silver of the moon OP right?
air tiger2 votesHey, just a small correction and not a disagreement with anything you posted about adcs
Caitlyn's passive shot ignores 50% of bonus armor, I believe. Thanks for the comparative breakdown , it's interesting.
YumaS2Astral2 votesDoesn't aids specifically not do damage? Thought the way that disease worked is it shuts down you immune system so something like the common cold can slowly kill you, where it's not directly doing any damage itself.
So aids is essentially a real life version of Deathfire Grasp
FluxBound1 votesIt's pretty much greivous wounds
RiotRiotRepertoir13 votesCan we honestly remove this flat true damage?
We could do it today, though that isn't to say we necessarily would. Vayne was made at a time when we didn't think as much about what champions strengths and weaknesses should be, and more focused on a fun experience that had some counterplay to it, so it's certainly possible that she could use some re-thinking.
Fadedpf14 votesPlease consider removing it. She has too much going for her right now as a hyper carry with so many escape tools.
LaceUp233 votesOnly thing I'm going to say is that with her flat damage, she does a higher % relative damage to squishies than tanks.
Knight SoIaire 2 votesyeah ... and also the purpose of the skill
its a %hp true damage ... most people think thank busting here
but in fact this skill doesnt do that ... it equalizes the time you take to kill opponents with varying durability
you face an armor loaded tank ... your silver bolts take the initiavive while physical damage is still relevant you face a squish opposite happens
ofc vayne has more physical damage due to crit ... so she does better vs squishies but that skill doesnt realy make her some exceptional tank buster ... but owerall destroyer that is effective againts anything
this is what you can see when you look at fiora ... whether its a tank or a squish .. she will kill it in a similar time frame
Diode5 votesWe could do it today, though that isn't to say we necessarily would. Vayne was made at a time when we didn't think as much about what champions strengths and weaknesses should be, and more focused on a fun experience that had some counterplay to it, so it's certainly possible that she could use some re-thinking.
counterplay vayne pick one
RiotRiotRepertoir7 votesHey, at least I didn't say "lots of counterplay"...
Archenz1 votesI think you should actually make her have a weak early game. Maybe nerf all her base damages and ratios at early levels. Because lets be honest, hooking or landing a cc on vayne in neigh impossible when the vayne is decent.
Ramuhdo1 votesBut Vayne counterplays a lot of people, so you can pick both still. :V
Goodest Gamer1 votesmy favorite kind of thing to watch is late game vayne. condemn the adc and hit him 3 times and see just how nonexistant that champion becomes. balance at its finest :)
ItemsGuy1 votesI don't necessarily think % health true damage is necessarily a problem on Vayne, but rather how accessible constant procs of this true damage is. Making Vayne a champion that must commit to attacking a single target (similar to Mini Gnar) and further limiting her target selection through somewhat unimpressive attack range helps carve out her defined strengths and weaknesses, but perhaps something like increasing the number of hits required to proc that true damage to 4 (or even 5), decreasing the stack duration to make that true damage easier to avoid, or changing Silver Bolts entirely so that it forces her to sacrifice something other options for that true damage could all potentially help bring that ability more in-line.
Dr Poro1 votesIn another post you said that Vayne's supposed to be a tank buster which justifies her %health dmg. But the flat true damage means that it's stronger vs squishies. To me, she just seems like an "anything she sees buster".
thumbnail91 votes[{quoted}](name=Dr Poro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3cbnyn3W,comment-id=001a0006,timestamp=2015-08-14T08:44:19.947+0000)
In another post you said that Vayne's supposed to be a tank buster which justifies her %health dmg. But the flat true damage means that it's stronger vs squishies. To me, she just seems like an "anything she sees buster".
That's because every hyper carry is an anything buster. When you get to late game kog, trist, cait, vayne will all kill anything with little much real trouble. Doing at a max 2% more damage to a squishie then she does to a tank doesn't actually change to much because you will be killed by the physical damage before the real effect of the extra % comes into play. All it does is make sure her damage isn't as heavily effected by mass armor stacking.
It's kinda the same way as the buff to Cait's head shot that makes it auto pen 50% of the bonus armor. They do relatively the same damage after the buff except it scales down a bit harder vs tankier targets because the raw AD it actually takes to make head shot deal high damage. However, you get late game and 6 item cait will destroy just about everything she see's.
These aren't the aspects that make people hate vayne. You only look at what's she's got after she out plays you in a frustrating way. It's mostly because people don't respect the fact she can straight up 1v1 duel like nobodies business. This is the one champion that people would send to split push vs Zed back when he was broken because she could beat him played right. Normally when you roll up on a solo ADC they have to run. Vayne's like I want to kill you and she can. Completely out of the norm for any ADC.
laststanding61 votesSo basically, what you are saying is, vayne is fundamentally flawed design from the bottom up? that same with nidalee?
Dethflash1 votesHow about only having true dmg, or max health % dmg on her W but not both. If her W just does true dmg you can build health and actually have some form of counterplay, where as if its max health % true dmg you just die no matter what you build, so your only hope is build full dmg and killing vayne before she 3 shots you.
junglerboy167 votesRemoving the base value does 2 things: It nerfs her overall DPS by roughly 40 (Since most Vaynes build for close to 2.0 attack speed), and in particular makes her less effective against squishy champions. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it's something you have to keep in mind. damage values are part of a kit for a reason, and just saying "She does so much damage, we should nerf this part of it!" is a sure fire way to end up ruining a champion long term after repeat nerfs of that style.
Maybe you should consider it this way: Why does Vayne get to deal so much damage? What weaknesses should be highlighted to make it fair and fun to play against her with those strengths? is there something about an item that is making her too strong or is it something internet to her kit?
For those few, most would say Vayne's short overall range and relatively lack-luster lane phase warrant having high damage, and also that BotRK is the real problem in this situation. Other than that, she is just good in the current meta because she can shred tanks and is also pretty safe against enemy assassins. If control mages and lane bully ADCs were to receive buffs, or if BotRK were to be nerfed, I would hazard a guess that Vayne would quite quickly fall out of favor pretty quickly.
TL;DR: Don't just point at parts of a kit yelling "SHE'S OP, NERF THIS PART!", instead examine the whole situation and figure out the best course of action for the health of the game as a whole.
The Chuckler1 votesI have made a previous comment on vayne's "short" AA range...
I thought the same thing! I was always told
"vayne is dangerous to play and easy to harass in lane because of her short range"
but I looked and most ADCs have an AA range of 550. shortest is Urgot (425), then Kog, Sivir, and Lucian (500), followed by >Graves/Quinn/Jinx (525), then Draven/Corki/Miss Fortune/Twitch/trsitana(very close)/Ezreal/Kalista/Vayne (550), then Varus (575), then >Ashe (600), finally Caitlyn (650). As shown, she does NOT have what is considered a "short" AA range, as there are only 3 ADCs who >outrange her (excluding abilities and tristana scaling), so the whole "she has short AA range" defense is highly inaccurate. If we look at >other adcs as well, the ones who are considered hypercarries either take a very long time to ramp up, or have no kill potential/easily >destroyed early and mid game. Vayne, when compared to the typical Hypercarry, is a decent threat early (not best, but not horrible) and has >a very safe laning phase. ON top of that, she has 2 self-peel abilities (tumble and condemn) as well as an added one from Ult, where as >most other hypercarries, and ADC's in general, have At Most 1 reliable self peel ability (tristana exception, but she needs to ult). Look at >Kog, he has no self-peel at all and a crappy AA range early game (large late, but only when living artillery activated). I believe that she is too >safe to have that much of a carry potential. I think she has a relatively similar laning phase to some other ADCs, but more carry potential >then them. I believe that she should be tweaked for this reason (NOT GUTTED, but made a little less burdensome). Maybe a reduction in AA >range/number change/whatever, all I know is that she seems to reach the hypercarry state quicker and easier than other hypercarries.
This is my spiel on the discussion on Vayne, do with it what you will.
I do not believe that she has a "short range"
Risurin5 votesMaybe this will help you understand it.
One thing people often outlook, is when people say champion like vayne have low range, they dont purely mean their auto range. Just take the time to consider why people would say such a thing about a champion? I will help you with the range thing :
Ashe W is 1200 range Graves Q is 950 range Ezreal Q is 1150 range lucian Q hit up to 1100 range Corki Q is 850 range
Their threatening ranges are far higher then vayne autos, and she only has auto to fight those (and no, people dont use the high mana cost high CD ability to poke vs these actual poke abilities). Thats why she is considered low range
tl:dr : Vayne range where she can deal damage and be a threat is lower then about everyone in the bot lane (i dont even mention supports in that quote lol), because she doesn't have a ranged poke ability early like most adc.
The Chuckler1 votesI understand where you are coming from on the poke abilities, but in a team fight, where the AA range is one of the major factors in being safe for positioning and the main source of damage (mostly in late mid-late game), she does not have a dangerous range. I completely understand that she does not have poke abilities as these other champs do, but most poke abilities do not get used in later game teamfights (not the pre-fight "dance" where poke abilities are very helpful) and AAs are the depended source of damage. Considering she has 2 relatively reliable escape abilities and an extra escape/engage with her ult, I was suggesting that she is a little too safe in teamfights with her current stats than she should be. I always got the impression that it was her AA range that people were talking about being too short (which is normally a noted factor in teamfight safety... bigger AA range, further back adc can be, safer adc is). This is referring to teamfights and not ability range. Ability range-wise, she IS short range, but AA wise (in regards to teamfights) she has a relatively safe AA range, unlike Graves, Kog, and others under 550 (understand that Kog and other short range ADCs have ways to compensate for that, i.e. Kog's increased range on living artillery or early game bully potential).
TL;DR I am referring to her teamfight range, not overall... overall the poke ADCs make her range look like melee. I also am merely suggesting that, relative to her stats, she is a little too safe. This is just what I have observed.
Risurin2 votesI understand where you are coming from on the poke abilities, but in a team fight, where the AA range is one of the major factors in being safe for positioning and the main source of damage (mostly in late mid-late game), she does not have a dangerous range. I completely understand that she does not have poke abilities as these other champs do, but most poke abilities do not get used in later game teamfights (not the pre-fight "dance" where poke abilities are very helpful) and AAs are the depended source of damage. Considering she has 2 relatively reliable escape abilities and an extra escape/engage with her ult, I was suggesting that she is a little too safe in teamfights with her current stats than she should be. I always got the impression that it was her AA range that people were talking about being too short (which is normally a noted factor in teamfight safety... bigger AA range, further back adc can be, safer adc is). This is referring to teamfights and not ability range. Ability range-wise, she IS short range, but AA wise (in regards to teamfights) she has a relatively safe AA range, unlike Graves, Kog, and others under 550 (understand that Kog and other short range ADCs have ways to compensate for that, i.e. Kog's increased range on living artillery or early game bully potential).
TL;DR I am referring to her teamfight range, not overall... overall the poke ADCs make her range look like melee. I also am merely suggesting that, relative to her stats, she is a little too safe. This is just what I have observed.
well, to begin with,
Since her threatening range is lower during the early game, and for most of the lanning phase, she is prone to go into the mid game with a gold deficit compared to her opponent (of course it wont happen every single game. it doesnt for any late game champion). Then as you said since her auto range is all she got in those team fight, there is more chances that she is closer to the enemy front line then some other adc (as i pointed out, most can stay away to poke before a teamfight starts and vayne has to be at max at 550 range of a champion to do any damage.), when the fight start, which makes her an overall easier target to engage on to start this actual fight. Thats a clear weakness in itself and make positionning on her rather difficult to maximize your damage output from a safe distance. Yes, autos are the base damage of adcs, but that doesnt mean their poke abilities cant give a significant advantage before any fight start. Every advantage count in PvP.
No. she doesnt have 2 reliable escape abilities and no, her ult isnt an extra escape engage (vaynespotting level of engage doesnt count.). Q is a repositionning tool and part of her mobility strength, but not an escape. the range on it is barely 300 unit, most champions can hit her still at that range. E can be used for a single target disengage (not really an escape, you arent blinking away, you are pushing them away), its distance is less then auto range for most ranged, and easily countered if you dont waste your gap closer left and right, and still will only push 1 guy, in a team fight i'm assuming more then 1 guy is going to dive on a team if any at all. oh and it has 20s CD at rank 1 and is maxed last (12sec at lvl 18), so vayne isnt going to land more then 1 in a normal fight, maybe 2 in a prolonged one. Then her ult doesnt give much in term of escaping, maybe just stealth, but ever heard of pink ward against stealth champion ? i mean a 100 gold item counter a part of her ultimate, that doesnt sound like too reliable to me. And come on engage ? what ? you are comparing final hour to stuff like leona E or sejuani ultimate ? its just a steroid that give her a slightly better chase ( the passive only work when she move toward enemy, not away), more ad (like some other steroid in the game) and stealth on tumble (pink ward (100g on use) or upgraded red trinket (250g for the whole game and have about the same CD as her ultimate at max rank too lol.)
how is average auto range, with no poke abilities is too safe ? like look who has lower range without any way to make their aa have more range : Graves Lucian Sivir Quinn
They all have actual long range abilities, sivir give her whole team an engage, have a long range poke that can deal a lot of damage on its own, and ricochet to hit a full team at a time, lucian and graves dashes have more range and lots of AoE damage. quinn become melee with a lot of speed blind and execute. in no way their threatening range are lower then vayne because of their AA range being 25 to 50 unit lower. of course if you compare only AA, the ones with build-in on hit effect will look better, but this game isnt just point and click. every champions have a passive, 3 normal abilities and 1 ultimate (on top of items and summoners), and their kit should be considered. Even in the late game, you should always use your abilities lol.
not sure what you refer as too safe for her stats; her lanning isnt safe, her mid-late isnt too safe etiher. her mobility and true damage on 3rd hit on the same single target, is literally all she has. She doesnt have any form of AoE damage, she doesnt give any buff to her team, she doesnt have any form of poke, all she got is mobility, and single target damage. I dont and probably cant understand what you have observed in your games, but i dont think it make vayne a safe champion. when i play a safe adc, i play something like ezreal and caitlyn, not vayne.
tldr : i think you just have a misconception of vayne strengths and what is safe in general.
The Chuckler1 votessir, I upvote you for your in depth description and rebuttal (which covers decent points). I may be slightly biased, but you do bring up very valid points. I was merely suggesting the fact that I have heard people say she has a short aa range and I disagree with that statement (note: AA range, not overall range... overall range she is short). I was also asking if she may need a minor (emphasis on minor) change to make it so she is known mostly as the tank buster, and not a squishy buster as well. BUT I digress... well said
Risurin2 votesperfectly understandable, and thank you for taking the time to read my wall of text.
I forgot to mention one thing that could also help put thing in perspective tho. Twitch is also often branded has having short range (outside of his ultimate) for siegeing purposes and fights (again without his ultimate). Even caster would agree on this term. How many time in LCK they would say twitch has such a short range. And yet, his range is 550, the same as vayne. simply, you dont want to fight wihtout your ultimate (pretty much like vayne), because you lose any threatening range you should have. Looking at twitch kit, i wouldnt really call his W a poke ability, so he has again about just his AA has threatening range (before 6 at least), just like vayne.
Critmaster Garen5 voteslet her keep the flat part. thats not even bothering me as much, since you can itemize against it by stacking health.
but she shouldnt have the % bonus. or simply just turn the % part into physical damage. 8% against a target with 3k health are 240 true damage. together with the flat portion, thats almost as much as the base damage on darius ult from 1 w proc.
LadyRenly2 votesLate game you tend to get deleted out of existence before you can consume the w stacks
Sir Yamazuki6 votesLate game you tend to get deleted out of existence before you can consume the w stacks
So do other adcs if they can't position, yet I don't see them running around with high true damage into their kits. There are even other adcs with less safety than Vayne.
JedenVojak4 votes[{quoted}](name=Lord Yamazuki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3cbnyn3W,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-12T17:13:22.490+0000)
So do other adcs if they can't position, yet I don't see them running around with high true damage into their kits. There are even other adcs with less safety than Vayne.
Her true damage is not high. Against, say, a 3000 hp tank, it would take 30 auto attacks to kill that person with the true damage. At lv 18 with these attack speed items (
) she's making 1.86 auto attacks a second, that's 16 seconds of straight pew-pewing to kill that person.
Also, you say "other adc's if they can't position" but other ADCs have access to long ranged poke, which Vayne does not - she must move into auto attack range to contribute to fights, meaning she must be within range of almost every melee gap closer in the game.
Sir Yamazuki7 votesHer true damage is not high. Against, say, a 3000 hp tank, it would take 30 auto attacks to kill that person with the true damage. At lv 18 with these attack speed items (
Also, you say "other adc's if they can't position" but other ADCs have access to long ranged poke, which Vayne does not - she must move into auto attack range to contribute to fights, meaning she must be within range of almost every melee gap closer in the game.
I have no idea why people who argue her true damage is "low" like to completely ignore her Q+R boosts her damage which that tied with her W is the reason she can just rush attack speed instead of actual damage. No one says a tank dies purely to true damage, but fact of the matter her true damage is 20~35% of her damage. That isn't "low", that's all damage no other adc can just bring out of no where as building armor against a lot of them actually prevents them from killing you quickly. She assassinates squishy targets quickly while being good at killing tanks. Champions who excel at both are stupid. It's not like her auto attacks are doing 0 damage, they are extremely high in addition to her true damage.
You realize "poke" is 100% useless when being jumped on, which is when an adc "dies instantly". What is Ashe going to do if someone enters melee range? Oh right, die unless her team helps, what does Varus really do? Oh he dies too, Kog? Same thing. Not even Ezreal with a blink is that great unless he hops over a wall and that means he isn't really doing consistent damage, which in many cases consistent damage is better than poke unless you built the team around constant poke. Vayne just tumbles and condemns and kills the target before they can even jump back onto her, and she doesn't care if you're a tank or not as you're dead quickly regardless. You also can't "dodge" any of her damage. There are adcs that have their usefulness lowered if they miss, all of Vayne's damage is 100% through auto attacks.
Finn Teh Human3 votesVayne doesn't have range or attack speed steroids like many other ADC's. OFC she is going to do better 1v1, that's what she's made for. But she is a heck of a lot harder in team fights, especially if the Vayne isn't experienced in them.
stuartk112 votesVayne is one of the best ADCs in the game at eliminating front liners.
Sir Yamazuki4 votes[{quoted}](name=Finn Teh Human,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3cbnyn3W,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-12T19:23:31.978+0000)
Vayne doesn't have range or attack speed steroids like many other ADC's. OFC she is going to do better 1v1, that's what she's made for. But she is a heck of a lot harder in team fights, especially if the Vayne isn't experienced in them.
She has steroids, that's what her Q, R and essentially W is. I also no where in my response mentioned 1v1ing Vayne anywhere. if you can't even be bothered to know what her kit is don't talk about balance.
JedenVojak3 votes[{quoted}](name=Lord Yamazuki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3cbnyn3W,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-12T19:10:53.994+0000)
I have no idea why people who argue her true damage is "low" like to completely ignore her Q+R boosts her damage which that tied with her W is the reason she can just rush attack speed instead of actual damage. No one says a tank dies purely to true damage, but fact of the matter her true damage is 20~35% of her damage. That isn't "low", that's all damage no other adc can just bring out of no where as building armor against a lot of them actually prevents them from killing you quickly. She assassinates squishy targets quickly while being good at killing tanks. Champions who excel at both are stupid. It's not like her auto attacks are doing 0 damage, they are extremely high in addition to her true damage.
Well, Q and R boost her physical damage which is commonly resisted by armor. She can, of course, build full attack speed, which will make her very specialized at killing tanks but at the cost of killing squishier targets or even fighters - in a normal ADC build, squishy targets should die to attack damage long before the % max health bonus would kill them. Other assassins or burst adcs can very easily make short work of her, and while she can make relatively quick work of a tank, a tank by themself should not be attempting to solo Vayne. Also remember that too fast of an attack speed will actually lower Vayne's DPS since she wants to tumble in between attacks for MAXIMUM DAMAGE.
You realize "poke" is 100% useless when being jumped on, which is when an adc "dies instantly". What is Ashe going to do if someone enters melee range? Oh right, die unless her team helps, what does Varus really do? Oh he dies too, Kog? Same thing. Not even Ezreal with a blink is that great unless he hops over a wall and that means he isn't really doing consistent damage, which in many cases consistent damage is better than poke unless you built the team around constant poke. Vayne just tumbles and condemns and kills the target before they can even jump back onto her, and she doesn't care if you're a tank or not as you're dead quickly regardless. You also can't "dodge" any of her damage. There are adcs that have their usefulness lowered if they miss, all of Vayne's damage is 100% through auto attacks.
-_-
In the first place, all ADC's have the option of fighting with auto attacks; access to other options such as utility, dodges, and poke are a bonus and provide the ADC additional options when simply performing auto attacks is not a realistic option. Ashe has a slow on every auto attack, long ranged poke, and a stun. Varus has a snare and %max health based magic damage, and burst. Kog'Maw has an attack range steroid, %max health magic damage steroid, attack speed steroid, and an armor/mr shred - he can out dps Vayne. These marksmen are immobile because they have powerful abilities which contribute to their damage or to the team as a whole; fortunately for them, they have a champion on every team whose whole job is making sure they stay alive.
The problem seems to be that you are looking at Vayne in a vacuum, where she's always in her best case fully built and fed and in a 1v1 scenario. Vayne as an assassin/carry is extremely specialized in 1v1 battles through high sustained auto attack damage, but she does very poorly in a scenario where she has to deal with more than one opponent at a time, since switching targets automatically resets her passive. Her range is also limited without poke, so she has to put herself at risk in order to attack an opponent.
If you really hate her so much, play champions that counter auto attacks - 
KONO RUBICK DA1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3cbnyn3W,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-08-12T16:42:15.457+0000)
let her keep the flat part. thats not even bothering me as much, since you can itemize against it by stacking health.
but she shouldnt have the % bonus. or simply just turn the % part into physical damage. 8% against a target with 3k health are 240 true damage. together with the flat portion, thats almost as much as the base damage on darius ult from 1 w proc.
if you remove the flat amount, you can itemize by going full armor
Critmaster Garen2 votesif you remove the flat amount, you can itemize by going full armor
are you kidding right now? what about max health % true damage dont you understand?
Abyssphere3 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3cbnyn3W,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2015-08-12T17:55:23.601+0000)
are you kidding right now? what about max health % true damage dont you understand?
He's right though. Silver Bolts is more difficult to itemise against than it otherwise would be because it has both flat damage (which encourages health stacking) and %HP damage (which discourages it). If she only did %HP damage you would prioritise armor against her, not against Silver Bolts but against the rest of her damage. If she only had flat damage you'd get health. But when you stack armor to reduce the amount you take from her %HP, you take a bigger fraction of your health from the flat amount.
You're not supposed to itemise to counter %HP true damage, the entire point of the ability and Vayne as a champion is that tanks can't counter her W. But if they removed the flat damage you would at least be able to say "Screw it, I'll just prioritise armor to negate the rest of her damage", which is a fine idea because she does a ton more physical damage than she does true damage anyway. The problem here is that the flat damage COMBINED with the %HP damage means you're screwed either way.
Slamurai Jack4 votesIt allows them to keep the % health portion a bit lower so it's not too oppressive against tanks without making silver bolts bad against squishies.
Hello I am Bird1 votesIsn't the point for it not to be good against squishies? Is that not the entire point o Vaynes w? Or is she just supposed to auto-kill anyone that comes in range?
TheXtractor2 votesShe is still and ADC, an adc should be able to do good damage to squisies, just like kog maw is a tank shredder but also a strong adc vs squisies. Vayne is build for 1v1ing basically
Ramuhdo1 votesThe problem with that argument is that nearly every other ADC doesn't have Vayne's true damage to help them against squishies, and they still do good damage against squishies. Why exactly does Vayne need base true damage in addition to %max HP true damage in order to do good damage to squishies whereas others need no such mechanic?
TheXtractor1 votesI think its a matter of give and take really, Vayne gets a lot of extra damage because she is meant to be a killing dueling machine. Because of that she is limited to low range skills and low waveclear, while other adc carries might not have the same damage but get other things like long range poke, better escape, more reliable cc or waveclear.
I think its okay for vayne to be an insane hypercarry since that is the only thing she can do really. She is shit in poke comps and can't do anything against pushing. If she gets caught out she will die quickly but works well if she had a good team behind her protecting her.
MakeABronziesDay3 voteswhy? she only does damage from auto attacks? she has to have damage somewhere
Ariel the Cruel2 votesTo get to the other side (of the health bar)!
NullDragon2 votesIf 8% of max HP true damage every three autos is aids, what's 15%(or more) of max HP true damage per vital strike for Fiora?
