Counter play doesn't mean "Dodge [X] ability"....

The Jokes On U·Sep 4, 2015·4 votes·900 views

Had a Yasuo tell me that the counter play to him is if you dodge his knockup.

Do some people really think that that's, the actual meaning for counter play to certain champions?

If you do let me school you please.

Counter play, in no way means that if you avoid a certain ability, or avoid a certain point in the game.

For example. "Dodge his hook." is not counter play to Blitzcrank or Thresh. Or my favorite as a Shaco main "Just wait till 30 minutes, he'll fall off." Is not counter play to champions who tend to fall off Damage wise. Please remember they can still bring utility (Pantheon, Shaco, Lee Sin etc. etc.)

Counter play can be defined as some form of play style, item build or even champion picks towards another champion or skill set. Yes, some champions have very little to no counter play and have very overloaded kits which generally you can't escape. Or they just have a really strong ability which can't be avoided, like Wither, Yellow Card, Olaf ultimate, and the one thing that stresses everyone out Silences.

I don't know what type of mentality people have who say things like this. Blitzcranks counter play isn't dodge his grab. It's to position yourself correctly if you're a carry or someone who is more prone to dying from simply getting hooked, and take advantage of the situation if he does miss it.

14 Comments

IonianSep 4, 20156 votes

Counterplay =/= counterbuilding =/= counterpicking. Stacking armor vs a Riven is counterbuilding. Dodging all of Xerath's skillshots is counterplay. Avoiding fighting someone during their powerspikes is counterplay. Picking a champion that is strong vs another is counterpicking. What this game needs more of is abilities that can be counterPLAYED, as then you can have a chance no matter what champion you're playing.

redniwediSSep 4, 20154 votes

Using Riven as an example, if you play a short ranged champion with no innate mobility and you build no defense you'd better hope that Riven has no idea what they are doing, because you've given yourself no openings for counter play, and as a result you should lose. Counter building and counter picking give you those openings you need.

Counter play, counter building, and counter picking are all aspects of the same, singular idea. Because of this you cannot make a legitimate argument about counter play that ignores the other two aspects. Each one directly ties into a skill that is a very important part of the League experience:

Counter play = Mechanical skill Counter building = Knowledge Counter picking = Forethought

To say every champion should have a chance regardless of the matchup is to completely deny the importance of counter picking. It's like saying a marksman should be able to beat full armor Rammus without building armor pen, or saying someone shouldn't be able to beat your champion because your champion is better than theirs.

Completely ignoring the importance of one or more aspects leads to a situation worthy of a reductio ad absurdum argument.

Yosuke ApperuSep 4, 20151 votes

Come to think of counter play.. I can't think of many champions to counter Leblanc unless you're a Galio and build 300+ MR..

IonianSep 4, 20151 votes

I never said the game doesn't need counterbuilding/picking, I said it needs MORE counterplay. In the end we're all here to have fun, and what's more fun: being able to outplay your opponent through mechanics/predictions or just picking X champion and afking in lane while the enemy Y champion is afking at turret because they can never fight you as you counter them?

redniwediSSep 4, 20152 votes

Fun is a completely relative term. I have fun playing League because of the long term plans that come into play, so minor details about the lane like you're talking about don't really phase me too much.

If someone pretty much afk's at their turret I'll just freeze the lane at my own and force them to miss out on so many resources that I can soon dive them and punish them for their inaction. If they are good at breaking a freeze I'll look for opportunities to roam, or even proxy farm if they are weak to that. It's all a battle of tactics, so if your opponent is beating you (which in your example they are) you either change tactics or let them win.

Stars ShaperSep 4, 20151 votes

He just made an example, and instead of this phylosophical meaning the real thing is:

Counter play = counter with ingame mechanics that are available to all characters (dodge, wait for CDs to be ready/used, etc.)

Counter build = counter by itemization (armor vs ad, mr vs ap, Zhonya vs Zed, etc.)

Counter pick = choose a character that mechanicwise has the upperhand against the enemy (Akali vs Yasuo, Fizz vs immobile mages, etc.)

redniwediSSep 4, 20152 votes

We're on the League boards, I assume everyone knows what the literal definitions are, so I found it to be much more important to talk about the accompanying skills.

It has nothing to do with philosophy, it's just a slightly different (and more accurate, in my opinion) focus on the facts at hand.

Stars ShaperSep 4, 20151 votes

I can't talk for If Ahri but imo the OP didn't get the literal meaning at all of said things from what he wrote.

redniwediSSep 4, 20151 votes

Fair enough.

Stars ShaperSep 4, 20152 votes

Sorry to brake your safety bubble but skillshots exist because the counter to them is moving the hell out of them.

If you don't care about dodging skillshots I don't want know how many Xerath you've fed or basically any1 who isn't a full point&click. Some skillshots stop at first target hit which adds the chance to hide behind minions as additive counter.

Also, the terms "counterplay" means that there is a way in game to counter said thing without involving items or which character you have, your ignorance about it it's facepalming.

The Jokes On USep 4, 20151 votes

It has nothing to do with the fact that actually dodging the skill shot negates the entirety of its use. It's that fact that counter play doesn't mean that you can simply dodge said champions abilities and overall come out on top. I didn't think of Xerath during this but yes, him and maybe one or two more champions with Niche kits and playstyles, this would be counter towards them yes, but it doesn't prove the fact that by simply dodging champions abilities, you've gained the advantage in the match in its entirety because its counter play.

The problem is you guys are trying to compare the fact that dodging an ability is considered counter play, to something that doesn't stop the majority of what the majority of champions can do to you. Truth be told there are no other skill shot based champions that rely on landing every single ability. The only one who comes close in mind would be Vel'Koz but even then most of his abilities are very easy to land, even on mobile champions.

Stars ShaperSep 4, 20152 votes

If you meant that dodging his knockup isn't enough to counter him well I agree and you need to be more clear.

Ofc Yasuo's kit doesn't rely simply on it but the concept of dodging, positioning and all the related faces of the game are vital parts of counterplay that need to be exploited in your favor.

Faith BreakerSep 6, 20151 votes

You are wrong, and you do not even know how wrong you are. Please stop.

Faith BreakerSep 6, 20151 votes

You're wrong, at the end you basically said the same thing you said was wrong, but with different words. You said

Dodging Blitz's hook isn't counter play. Counter play is being in a place where Blitz's hook doesn't grab you

Congratulations. Counter play to Blitz involves Banshee's Veil, Spellsheilds, and minion/creep/pet block. The latter examples include Annie, Malzahar, Zyra, Heimroid, Shaco, and LeBlance to name a few. All have either a pet, clone, or turret they can drop between them and Blitz , where before they had a clear shot, and thus block the grab. That is counter play. Don't make a thread and try to share an opinion if it is inherently wrong.