But can we please f*cking do something about lifesteal? Now that assassins, barring a couple exceptions, take longer to get their damage off, it's even easier to survive them. It's to the point ADCs can often out-duel an assassin.
At least divers have CC to stop ADCs from drain tanking them into oblivion.
Sasogwa10 votesThe problem with assassins is that with the damage potential of adc's, the CC of supports, they have to instantly pop out adc's or they get CC'ed and die in 1.5 seconds. Like, literally. How do you even balance that out? Make assassins able to pop squishies instantly? "QQ no counterplay, adcs in 2017 lul, broken af" Make them have delayed burst damage? doesnt work ; and there's lifesteal as an issue.
Often, when assassins are able to do their job, it means they're overpowered in general (aka they can also destroy tanks/juggernaughts/bruisers which they shouldn't.
Maybe the problem lies in the ADC and support classes that have been defining the meta ever since season 2? And once we tone down their power level, we can look at the other classes and balance them healthily? (aka nerf, i guess). It just honestly feels like everyone has been under a powercreep tbh. Damage's too high in general. For tanky people as well as for squishies. To the nerf bat !
EndlessSorcerer3 votesIt just honestly feels like everyone has been under a powercreep tbh. Damage's too high in general. For tanky people as well as for squishies. To the nerf bat !
I blame the mastery system. The sheer number of damage amplifiers is overwhelming and the Resolve tree lacks defensive bonuses to counter it (Fearless and Courage of the Colossus are the only noticeable options in that tree for durability).
~3% damage amplification used to be the pinnacle of the offensive tree, which is weaker than the current fourth-tier masteries in Ferocity.
Troy2426213 votesThe problem with assassins is that with the damage potential of adc's, the CC of supports, they have to instantly pop out adc's or they get CC'ed and die in 1.5 seconds. Like, literally. How do you even balance that out? Make assassins able to pop squishies instantly? "QQ no counterplay, adcs in 2017 lul, broken af" Make them have delayed burst damage? doesnt work ; and there's lifesteal as an issue.
Often, when assassins are able to do their job, it means they're overpowered in general (aka they can also destroy tanks/juggernaughts/bruisers which they shouldn't.
Maybe the problem lies in the ADC and support classes that have been defining the meta ever since season 2? And once we tone down their power level, we can look at the other classes and balance them healthily? (aka nerf, i guess). It just honestly feels like everyone has been under a powercreep tbh. Damage's too high in general. For tanky people as well as for squishies. To the nerf bat !
Assassins shouldn't have hard CC. When they do, they always cause problems. There hasn't been a single assassin in this game that has had hard CC and didn't cause problems.
Automated Riven1 votesdidnt even have one with soft cc. see rengar kass and talon and leblanc.
kile1471 votesHas their been any assassin in this game that hasn't caused problems?
Fashion Mage1 votesMaybe an assassin shouldn't be able to win a 1v2?
Lauchmelder5 votesAn assassin should be able to kill his target. And his enemies should be able to do something against it. That's why I considered pre-update Rengar as an insanely toxic champion.
Troy2426211 votes[{quoted}](name=MadKnife IV,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3UtdHhAK,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-01-19T01:24:02.078+0000)
An assassin should be able to kill his target. And his enemies should be able to do something against it. That's why I considered pre-update Rengar as an insanely toxic champion.
Rengar is aids but there are two viable assassins now. And his burst time is still hilariously short.
I also don't get this:
On the Other Hand Lifesteal and grievous wounds are fine, and don't need changes. Drain tanks may pose a serious game health problem, but not as long as they have to buy it first.
Variks the Loyal6 votes[{quoted}](name=MadKnife IV,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3UtdHhAK,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-01-19T01:24:02.078+0000)
An assassin should be able to kill his target. And his enemies should be able to do something against it. That's why I considered pre-update Rengar as an insanely toxic champion.
Here's the thing, though. The 'do something about it' isn't fighting back. It's proper planning and outfoxing the Assassin. Proper ward placement gives away their roams, teamwork keeps them away, and CC catches them and blows them up.
The counterplay is to catch them before they catch you, not to outfight them when they ambush you. Assuming equal skill, unless the ADC is ahead or the Assassin is weak, the Assassin should ALWAYS beat the ADC.
Edge of Daybreak2 votesThe counterplay is to catch them before they catch you, not to outfight them when they ambush you. Assuming equal skill, unless the ADC is ahead or the Assassin is weak, the Assassin should ALWAYS beat the ADC.
I strongly wished a single person on the balance team had this mentality. Sadly for the assassins struggling right now it is usually just because the adc or mage can outright kill you should you catch them alone.
Lauchmelder3 votesTbh I prefer it that way. Assassins shouldn't get a free kill just because they caught you out. Let them work for it like any other class has to do it as well.
SuddenAntagonist3 votesSo what you're saying is, Assassins shouldn't be able to assassinate. The definition of assassinate is, "To murder in a surprise attack". Getting into a fight with something is not murdering it in a surprise attack, it's dueling it. As Talon, back in Season 5, I was able to ult speed boost assassinate single targets in under a second. Why? Because they were alone and I could. In a teamfight, flank and eliminate. Know how they caught me out? Either body blocking my clicks, or finding and ccing me before I could murder someone. That's how you beat an assassin.
Fast forward, this season. Talon now requires longer to burst. Too long, really. To the point that I end up in a duel with people to see if I can burst them before they 3 auto attack me. That's not healthy. It eliminates the entire purpose of being an assassin.
And to respond in a more direct manner, catching you out and bursting you before you can do anything IS working for a kill. And it's definitely not free. I have cooldowns, and I still have to escape. If I ran straight at you in full view, how do I kill you doing that? I either don't, or I get killed at the same time.
50000000000000001 votesDoesn't R-Q-AA proc the passive? Is that often not enough damage?
SuddenAntagonist1 votesSometimes it is, many times it isn't. The reason being this season because lifesteal is so good on certain "squishies". The bleed is 2 seconds total, and it can deal a LOT of damage. However, his overall damage ratios are lower as a result of his now "oppressive" passive. He deals less base damage, meaning he's relying on the passive instead of it just being a guarantee. That gives time for many to get off an ability, or an auto or 2.
Back to the point about lifesteal, when I nuke a Caitlyn from 100 - 10 in .5 seconds, and she autos me twice before the bleed gets off, she healed enough to live and it becomes a race to get off another Q before I get, literally, devoured.
Takazaki9 votesSuddenAntagonist1 votesThis. Take my upvote for relevant video.
Takazaki1 votesnow down vote me for this one
https://plays.tv/video/58240c96d280cd9b7a/we-wanted-to-give-you-time-to-react-to-assassin?from=user
ironically enough both played on the same patch
SuddenAntagonist3 votesThe difference here though, they didn't react like the Jinx. Jhin tried to run and paid for it (plus I think he was reloading, which is a great mechanic...).
Takazaki1 votesi think its more that jinx survived 2 rotations of Q and i died because of the life steal whilst jhin didnt get past 1 neither is healthy imo but there is no real middle ground
NineTailedMystic3 votesJhin doesn't have the sheer AS to lifesteal tank.
Edge of Daybreak3 votesThis video with jhin vs the one with jinx is kinda the issue with assassin burst vs lifesteal right now. If you get to hit them as if they are a training dummy you win as jhin just auto'd you before you actually did anything so when you bursted him you essentially just hit a target that didnt respond. With jinx the moment she got off auto attacks you lost. Now if you were playing a mage in either instance you would have been able to cc them while bursting them so neither would get a chance to respond and both would have died.
AHeroNamedHawke1 votesDoesn't R-Q-AA proc the passive? Is that often not enough damage?
In order to do that you have to walk up to the ADC in 500 range and press R, and AA ranges are measured differently than ability ranges so its even longer than it sounds
Having to eat 3 autoattacks before you can even combo usually means you die late game
Edge of Daybreak1 votes[{quoted}](name=Charles Barklius,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3UtdHhAK,comment-id=0000000100000000000000000001,timestamp=2017-01-19T04:17:21.378+0000)
In order to do that you have to walk up to the ADC in 500 range and press R, and AA ranges are measured differently than ability ranges so its even longer than it sounds
Having to eat 3 autoattacks before you can even combo usually means you die late game
He did the calculation assuming you were walking up to them in stealth. Which is why he only listed one instance of the ult instead of both.
AHeroNamedHawke1 votesHe did the calculation assuming you were walking up to them in stealth. Which is why he only listed one instance of the ult instead of both.
I was replying to before his math, with that calculation he wouldn't get the kill if the ADC got a single auto off + any shield or heal from their support
AHeroNamedHawke4 votes[{quoted}](name=MadKnife IV,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3UtdHhAK,comment-id=0000000100000000,timestamp=2017-01-19T02:18:33.688+0000)
Tbh I prefer it that way. Assassins shouldn't get a free kill just because they caught you out. Let them work for it like any other class has to do it as well.
Then there's no point in playing them. Why pick a riskier, low CC melee assassin when you can kill just as consistently with a high CC ranged mage?
Automated Riven1 votesI would just like to point out that lissandras (the lowest damage mage in the game likely) at full build can 100-0 an adc in about .5 seconds.
Lauchmelder1 votesThen there's no point playing them if you can't get a faceroll kill?
If an assassin can assassinate that champion even if he missed half of his skills then there's something wrong.
That's my point. People expect assassins to be able to get easy kills because "muh no CC"
AHeroNamedHawke3 votes[{quoted}](name=MadKnife IV,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3UtdHhAK,comment-id=000000010000000000010001,timestamp=2017-01-19T03:54:48.314+0000)
Then there's no point playing them if you can't get a faceroll kill?
If an assassin can assassinate that champion even if he missed half of his skills then there's something wrong.
That's my point. People expect assassins to be able to get easy kills because "muh no CC"
That would be what I just said
Question, which is better? Killing 5 people, or killing one person? Take your time, I have all night.
Lauchmelder1 votesI'm not gonna lie....
This conversation confuses me for some reason.
AHeroNamedHawke2 votes[{quoted}](name=MadKnife IV,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3UtdHhAK,comment-id=00000001000000000001000100000000,timestamp=2017-01-19T06:17:08.339+0000)
I'm not gonna lie....
This conversation confuses me for some reason.
I'm confused how you think an inconsistent single target assassination with no CC is an acceptable alternative to standard mage mids
Lauchmelder2 votesAnd exactly that's my point. Assassins in a MOBA are a waste of energy and resources.
AHeroNamedHawke2 votes[{quoted}](name=MadKnife IV,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3UtdHhAK,comment-id=0000000100000000000100010000000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-19T09:03:53.727+0000)
And exactly that's my point. Assassins in a MOBA are a waste of energy and resources.
They should be risky all ins that can explode priority targets
They're only a waste of resources because every other carry does assassin level burst while "DPSing"
NineTailedMystic1 votesHere's the thing, though. The 'do something about it' isn't fighting back. It's proper planning and outfoxing the Assassin. Proper ward placement gives away their roams, teamwork keeps them away, and CC catches them and blows them up.
You mean the actual anti-thesis of Solo Queue. Where people want the ability to mechanically outplay each other, and not rely on only Game Knowledge to beat an Assassin, otherwise known as playing the "Don't get within ~700 range of the Assassin or else they will gap close and 100-0 instaburst you with nothing you can do about it" game, not League of Legends.
Macro is great and all, but in order to beat a champ it shouldn't be the only solution.
AHeroNamedHawke2 votesYou mean the actual anti-thesis of Solo Queue. Where people want the ability to mechanically outplay each other, and not rely on only Game Knowledge to beat an Assassin, otherwise known as playing the "Don't get within ~700 range of the Assassin or else they will gap close and 100-0 instaburst you with nothing you can do about it" game, not League of Legends.
Macro is great and all, but in order to beat a champ it shouldn't be the only solution.
And instead play the "these mages are gonna keep throwing skillshots from 900 range and when 1 lands you're gonna die instantly game"
Different, but not in any practical sense
NineTailedMystic1 votesAt least you can outplay skillshots that aren't pointblank.
Variks the Loyal1 votesYou mean the actual anti-thesis of Solo Queue. Where people want the ability to mechanically outplay each other, and not rely on only Game Knowledge to beat an Assassin, otherwise known as playing the "Don't get within ~700 range of the Assassin or else they will gap close and 100-0 instaburst you with nothing you can do about it" game, not League of Legends.
Macro is great and all, but in order to beat a champ it shouldn't be the only solution.
Then they should play ARAM.. Summoner's Rift requires a lot of strategy and cunning and tactical awareness and knowledge, not just mechanical skill. Mechanical skill is important, but it's just one trait of a more complex game.
NineTailedMystic1 votesPersonally, I think mechanical skill should win fights, but game knowledge should win games. All the mechanics in the world won't win you games if you don't get objectives. That said, the old Assassins weren't healthy for the game. If damage gets toned down to where Assassins can do their job without dying first, they'll be in a perfectly fine state.
hhaavviikk2 votes[{quoted}](name=MadKnife IV,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3UtdHhAK,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-01-19T01:24:02.078+0000)
An assassin should be able to kill his target. And his enemies should be able to do something against it. That's why I considered pre-update Rengar as an insanely toxic champion.
but if all the adc is doing is right clicking you and thefore winning they didn't ''do'' anything they just won a stat check battle
Lauchmelder1 votesDid I say they should be able to do that?
PermabannedGaren1 voteshttp://lolalytics.com/champion/Ekko/ http://lolalytics.com/champion/Katarina/ http://lolalytics.com/champion/Khazix/ http://lolalytics.com/champion/Leblanc/ http://lolalytics.com/champion/Rengar/ http://lolalytics.com/champion/Shaco/ http://lolalytics.com/champion/Talon/
"There are two viable assassins right now" lol.
Automated Riven1 votesthey didnt increase shit with talon. he can r q to the adc and aa instantly and oneshot him. he doesnt even have to use his passive or his w unless the adc buys some armor.
Troy2426211 votes[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3UtdHhAK,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2017-01-19T03:37:26.047+0000)
they didnt increase shit with talon. he can r q to the adc and aa instantly and oneshot him. he doesnt even have to use his passive or his w unless the adc buys some armor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaTPYhYzEC8&list=PL7QidrpYXjfFJ0_aosDXmsftCeQWLCf7-&index=37
Automated Riven2 votesI take this build (when I get ahead and we make it to late game.) 
and last two items are situational. I take 20 lethality in runes. thats 70.9 lethality to be exact. lets assume the last two items I got were 
for lifesteal and some defense. this leaves me with 468 (with elixer) attack damage. and 71 armor pen at level 18.
talons R does 160 + 80% bonus ad (284)
talons q does 160 + 100% bonus ad (355)
talons aa does 468
duskblade does 50 plus 200% lethality true damage (191.8)
thunderlords decree does 180 + 30% bonus ad (106)
Hydra does 468 attack damage. 
This deal 2192 damage instantly to the adc which would be sitting at about 2000 health and about 19 armor. If your on the high end. (quinn)
On the low end its closer to 1877 health and 9 armor (ashe)
armor is calculated after lethality shreds it.
This also isnt counting if the q crits this is assuming its max range. edit also doesnt count any percent increased damage you get from masteries or any bonus ad you get from runes or masteries. just base and items alone.
Edge of Daybreak1 votesDid you do this assuming the enemy adc had armor runes or scaling health runes because chances are they have one of the two. The only possible scenario I can think of where this doesn't pop them is if the enemy adc can get off at least one auto with a large chunk of lifesteal. There is also cases of vayne or trist knocking you out of range. The blades retracting to them will give them enough time to hit that oh shit button but chances are your W would catch them as you fly back killing them anyway or the blades just kill them since they didnt auto to heal.
However that being said this is really assuming the enemy support doesnt hit exhaust, heal them, or they dont hit heal themselves.
Slazll1 votesThat is how assassins have always been once an adc gets to around 4-6 items you can't 1v1 them unless they aren't expecting it or it's in a teamfight, but with how short the average games are idt that would be an issue have you considered if you can't kill the ad kill the supp or mid laner both of which put significantly more threat on the adc cause they are gone, assassins solo target shouldn't always be adcs lol
You also have to be able to choose the right target at the right time if you can't kill the adc kill whoever you can so you can be of use and get the items you need to be more of a threat specifically supports who when are dead the adc is more vulnerable has to play safer, plus they are easier to kill as the game progresses
ZT Xperimentor1 votesNot to mention riot removed will of the ancients, then gutted all the mages that used it. Meanwhile marksmen got yet another lifesteal item in the same season.
Aptest1 votesa 5-6 item ADC with lifesteal and a def item SHOULD be able to duel an assassin.