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@meddler you dont give a juggernaut out of combat sustain

Tychusfindlay919··5 votes·432 views

> {quoted} > > I'd start by asking you what gameplay changes, from both Garen and other players, you'd want to see result from such a change. As above there are some particular problems we're targeting with Garen besides just power, and while I'd expect constant sustain to feel ok and add meaningful strength to Garen gut reaction is to doesn't address other issues. Some of that though's that I'm not convinced being able to leave a fight, recover and then return's a bad thing.

It's like you dont even know your own designs. He is a juggernaut. Juggernauts dont leave fights, it is not in their nature. Juggernauts are tanky melee carries that output sustained damage over time and love to stay in fights as long as possible. Garen's spin makes him no exception to this rule.

They are also slow, so their engage and disengage are limited.

That you seriously think its ok for a JUGGERNAUT to have out of combat sustain instead of in combat sustain baffles me.

"Im not convinced that being able to leave a fight, recover and return is a bad thing"

It isn't on a skirmisher that dances around people. On a juggernaut that gets in your face and stays there, it is a moronic passive.

CHANGE GAREN'S PASSIVE, THE ARMOR SHRED MAY BE NICE AS A BUFF, BUT IN TERMS OF WHAT GAREN REALLY NEEDS, IT ISNT THE RIGHT THING

17 Comments

Ralanr2 votes

Hasn't Garen always had out of combat sustain?

Plus Garen is resourceless, giving him in combat sustain would make him incredibly difficult to actually fight in lane because he'd have no real reason to back off.

Tychusfindlay9192 votes

{quoted}

Hasn't Garen always had out of combat sustain?

Plus Garen is resourceless, giving him in combat sustain would make him incredibly difficult to actually fight in lane because he'd have no real reason to back off.

Garen wasnt always considered a juggernaut, no one was before the update, except maybe nasus.

The fact that garen's passive never changed after the update is dumb. It's uselessness was masked behind blatantly overpowered juggernaut items (for the time, they probably wouldnt even be broken if all their nerfs were reverted today considering the atmosphere today).

Depending on how you implement the sustain, I think it could be pulled off on a resourceless champion.

Besides, juggernauts in general usually have no reason to back off unless they cant stat check the opponent to hell (in which the case they try to run at a pathetically slow pace unless it is udyr). It is their design, whether people like it or not.

Ralanr3 votes

That's because juggernaut wasn't really a term back then.

That doesn't address the issue of a resourceless champion having in combat sustain. The best example of this would be Yasuo and Tryndamere with release Warlords. Because of their crit mechanics, they were pretty much impossible to punish or push out because they'd heal up with a couple of minions or just out sustain you pre 6.

You can't just give Garen in combat sustain without heavily adjusting his kit so that people can actually punish him and give him a reason to back off. He'd basically become a spinning Mundo.

Big Lincoln4 votes

he would still suck early game lol. his damage is horrendous until he gets levels.

renekton says hi

Ralanr1 votes

Renekton isn't a juggernaut and has a cap on his heal that's lower than a mana juggernaut named Darius.

Big Lincoln3 votes

renekton has a better early game than both of them

Garen's poor gap closing and low early damage would keep him from being a lane bully

Ralanr1 votes

But the infinite combat sustain might make him one through his sheer inability to not die.

BastionKross3 votes

The sustain doesn't have to be infinite. It can have a cooldown, or some restricting mechanic.

Ralanr1 votes

And Riot will have to be very careful with what because Garen is only hated by cooldowns.

BastionKross2 votes

Agreed. Resourceless champs should always have relevant CDs because that's their only gate. Garen is a little less at risk for getting out of control than the others since his kit lacks complexity, mobility, and movement impairing CC, but his CDs should still be carefully monitored.

The main point of this whole discussion is that you can't put a hit and run mechanic on a champion whose kit doesn't allow them to hit and run. Garen doesn't have the mobility of other hit and run champs like Ekko or Kass, and he lacks meaningful and reliable ways to disengage a fight once he's in it.

This is like giving Cait a passive that grants her bonus AD the closer she is to a target she's auto attacking; her entire kit is built to keep targets at range and it ends up being counter intuitive and hurting her. Putting a hit and run passive on Garen is the same thing, it's power that Garen can't draw upon if he's doing what he's supposed to be doing as a juggernaut.

Big Lincoln1 votes

put a CD on it that scales down for late game

or make it missing HP so it's only relevant if he's low

Tychusfindlay9191 votes

{quoted}

But the infinite combat sustain might make him one through his sheer inability to not die.

If it is excessive. The beautiful thing about balance is that there are ways to fix... Excessiveness. And we havent even gotten to ideas on how to implement the sustain (whether it is accessed immediately or through W or through hitting the last tick of E, etc.). There are a ton of different ways to implement this.

Doseqis1 votes

I'm pretty sure the guy you responded too hit the nail on the had, if you have no mana you shouldn't also have good sustain in lane and tons of damage to work with.

Meep Man3 votes

Inplying most other Juggs in 90% of matchups have a reason to back off.

Ralanr1 votes

So what? Are you saying that it's impossible to push a juggernaut out of lane?

Tychusfindlay9191 votes

{quoted}

So what? Are you saying that it's impossible to push a juggernaut out of lane?

No, what he is saying is that if you and a juggernaut are melee range of each other, the juggernaut will have no reason to back off unless he cannot stat check you and win the trade through sheer strength (think nasus, or darius). They have relatively few mechanics and rely more on positioning and timing and stats than flashy mechanics. When you push a juggernaut out of lane, many times it is a fatal trade error in which the juggernaut couldnt stat check (keep in mind range and speed are considered stats and they are typically one of the only stats that juggernauts lack) you or didnt position well and got hit like a rock by whatever was thrown at them due to their limited mobility.

Who knows, maybe juggernauts are just binary as hell. Whatever, work with it or scrap it. I think they can exist in a healthy state personally.

Lùmen1 votes

Elise would like to have a word with you when it comes to "the right thing" Elise item 3070

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