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The enemy team has two tanks and Zed. As an APC, I do not have time to itemize against both.

Yenn··7 votes·825 views

Can this please be fixed with intermediate items, so I don't have to build an entire fucking item before I get any benefit towards the reason I'm building out of it?

In my last game, I had the majority of my team's kills. Mana regen is absolutely required, I don't have any option to not build it. For my second item, I can get Hourglass and survive Zed's all in and do nothing to the tanks, or I can build Liandry/Void and kill the tanks, but get one shot by Zed.

I went with Hourglass in this game. Then the tanks basically just ran down our team, because I had no damage against them. Game over.

No matter what decision I make as an AP carry, I lose. Meanwhile, if I were an AD champion, I could have just dumped 1300 gold on armor penetration for an immediate boost to my tank killing ability.

This is a serious problem that cripples AP champions right now, and it's unacceptable that itemization has been in this sad state for so long.

34 Comments

Baron Barian2 votes

I'm so glad I main Vel'Koz when I go mid. True damage is good against everything. :D

Yenn3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Baron Barian,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3Ev0PVhA,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-10-26T07:39:23.212+0000)

I'm so glad I main Vel'Koz when I go mid. True damage is good against everything. :D

Vel'koz stops being viable at high Platinum/Diamond. His kit is too telegraphed, good players can avoid most of it, and mid is dominated by assassins.

sit kid3 votes

stops being viable at high Platinum/Diamond

Viability through kit strength is not a solo queue thing... Why was Azir considered the best champion in mid-s6 while only being at 47% winrate in plat/dia, but vel'koz at a solid 52% in all divisions??

and mid is dominated by assassins

... being Zed?

I can think of champions like Syndra, Taliyah, Azir and Orianna doing much beter than pretty much all assassins

Poske1 votes

{quoted}

Viability through kit strength is not a solo queue thing... Why was Azir considered the best champion in mid-s6 while only being at 47% winrate in plat/dia, but vel'koz at a solid 52% in all divisions??

Unlike Velkoz, Azir requires both of hands. Not to mention he was full of bugs + a new champion

... being Zed?

Le blanc ll humiliate you, Katarina ll humiliate you, Talon ll humiliate you, Zed ll humiliate you, Engage tanks ll render you useless also. Velkoz is bad

sit kid1 votes

Unlike Velkoz, Azir requires both of hands. Not to mention he was full of bugs + a new champion

Although he wasn't really a new champion. Im mid S6, he'd already been out for 1.5 years, which is more than enough for people to adapt to him. I agree, on a compeditive level, Azir outshines Vel'Koz on multible levels, but it doesn't really start being noticeable before challenger-master tier. Solo queue is pretty much a mess wherever you go.

Vel'Koz is a champion that can punish mistakes very easily with high-damage all-ins where as Azir entirely relies on his player being skilled in order succeed.

Le blanc ll humiliate you, Katarina ll humiliate you, Talon ll humiliate you, Zed ll humiliate you, Engage tanks ll render you useless also. Velkoz is bad

LeBlanc sure is snowbally, but doesn't have that much upfront burst damage, where someone like Syndra will just knock her away and oneshot her before she even gets to proc her passive.

Katarina is actually quite surprisingly easy to counter. Even with Vel'Koz you can zone her off every CS she tries to take without her Q, her Q places her daggers behind you if she throws it at you, meaning you just can step against her. She will either have to W before or after dash, meaning you possibly can sidestep all of her damage by simply walking forward. Also why she was played in compeditive at first, but then eventually became a solo queue pick.

Talon has no real mobility in lane and is mostly like fizz, poke him out of lane with some mage that can keep him at a distance when he goes for the W-Q poke.

You're telling me Vel'Koz is bad because he is to telegraphed when pretty much all assassins are melee and have to fear getting poked down when CS'ing?

I'm not saying Vel'Koz is better than assassins, but you're glorifying them as OP champions that will stomp everyone they meet... Gotta say, only times I really have a bad time against assassins is when their jungler decides to camp me and I'm not prepared for it.

Poske1 votes

{quoted}

Although he wasn't really a new champion. Im mid S6, he'd already been out for 1.5 years, which is more than enough for people to adapt to him. I agree, on a compeditive level, Azir outshines Vel'Koz on multible levels, but it doesn't really start being noticeable before challenger-master tier. Solo queue is pretty much a mess wherever you go.

This is just straight up false. Idk what else to say

Velkoz has 2 combos Angled Q>R E>W>Q>R and you can angle your q... If you know that you mastered Velkoz.

Azir requires kiting, Pick knowledge and much more. Mastering Azir is almost impossible while mastering vellkoz is fking EZY PEZY

Vel'Koz is a champion that can punish mistakes very easily with high-damage all-ins where as Azir entirely relies on his player being skilled in order succeed.

Do you have any idea how long I havent lost a lane/game against that champion. He is subpar in every way compared to syndra

LeBlanc sure is snowbally, but doesn't have that much upfront burst damage, where someone like Syndra will just knock her away and oneshot her before she even gets to proc her passive.

She doesnt have upfront burst damage if you are bad at her. To bad Me and maybe 2 other le blanc players arent while everyone else is garbage

Katarina is actually quite surprisingly easy to counter. Even with Vel'Koz you can zone her off every CS she tries to take without her Q, her Q places her daggers behind you if she throws it at you, meaning you just can step against her. She will either have to W before or after dash, meaning you possibly can sidestep all of her damage by simply walking forward. Also why she was played in compeditive at first, but then eventually became a solo queue pick.

She really is not. Any champion who can play duels in multiple ways isnt

Talon has no real mobility in lane and is mostly like fizz, poke him out of lane with some mage that can keep him at a distance when he goes for the W-Q poke.

You're telling me Vel'Koz is bad because he is to telegraphed when pretty much all assassins are melee and have to fear getting poked down when CS'ing?

I never actually said velkoz is telegraphed. I just said he is to outsclassed by actual good midlaners and HAS NO NICHE

I'm not saying Vel'Koz is better than assassins, but you're glorifying them as OP champions that will stomp everyone they meet... Gotta say, only times I really have a bad time against assassins is when their jungler decides to camp me and I'm not prepared for it.

Just think about this. Every velkoz ever is forced to take barrier regardless of matchup thats how vulnerable he is

sit kid1 votes

This is just straight up false. Idk what else to say

Velkoz has 2 combos Angled Q>R E>W>Q>R and you can angle your q... If you know that you mastered Velkoz.

Skillshots are not hard in themselves, but around a skilled and an average solo queue opponent, the outcome would be very different. There's a lot of predictability in his abilities, Q being slow, W being 2 cast, E delay...

I never actually said velkoz is telegraphed. I just said he is to outsclassed by actual good midlaners and HAS NO NICHE

That wasn't you, mb.

I don't think he is necessarily outclassed by a lot of champions, rather to unreliable. Too reliant on skillshots, comboing to proc passive after the MYMU and not getting interrupted during his ultimate. Also would kind of explain the lack of success in diamond and LCS, where his Bronze-plat winrates are around 52%.

Now, I'm not a big Vel'Koz fan myself and would 100% rather opt into some of the meta picks (just not Taliyah xd).

Poske1 votes

{quoted}

Velkoz has 2 combos Angled Q>R E>W>Q>R and you can angle your q... If you know that you mastered Velkoz.

Where as most of lane is won by enemies stepping up too far, not dodging Q properly and tanking EWQ too often... Solo queue is not compedtivite league, so people make mistakes all the time

Mate Maybe velkoz is viable in your elo but he is borderline trollpick in mine kapish?

I somewhat tolerate him in support role but thats it

sit kid1 votes

I wouldnt really call him borderline trollpick... LL is still having great success on him, but yea, his weaknesses are very exploitable, something that people around me, and sometimes myself forget...

I would say lack of understanding/respect of the character is what makes Vel so good in lower elos while making him somewhat bad in higher ones

Poske1 votes

Enjoy playing handicaped version of syndra which is what velkoz in a nutshell is

And dont give me MUH TRUE DAMAGE argument. JUST FKING NO NO

as long as Voidstaff is tier 0-1 ap item True damage mages ll never be relevant

Baron Barian2 votes

Idk. I've played against quite a few assassins as Vel'koz, and tend to melt them like butter in a microwave.

Edit: Granted, I'm not in diamond, but that doesn't mean you cant be good at him in diamond.

Yenn1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Baron Barian,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3Ev0PVhA,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-10-26T08:58:31.817+0000)

Idk. I've played against quite a few assassins as Vel'koz, and tend to melt them like butter in a microwave.

Edit: Granted, I'm not in diamond, but that doesn't mean you cant be good at him in diamond.

100% of the problem with Vel'koz is that his entire kit is telegraphed and slow. Good players have the reaction speeds to dodge most of it (and most mids have mobility to get out of it), and if they are going to get hit, they'll generally just flash into you and kill you, because they know you can't win if your Q + E are down and didn't hit.

You're also a sitting duck while you ult and there's a short delay at the start where you can't break it, to prevent players from unintentionally double tapping, so anyone you aren't ulting towards is free to jump on you with little worry.

MrHaZeYo2 votes

I agree.

archerno12 votes

Isnt Liandrys made for that? It gives you HP against assassin and penetration+%hp against tanks

Yenn1 votes

{quoted}

Isnt Liandrys made for that? It gives you HP against assassin and penetration+%hp against tamkd

Assassins don't have enough damage to just barely kill you at baseline, they have enough damage to kill you and another 30% of your health bar. Especially once they have Duskblade.

Even with Barrier, I can't survive a Zed ult where he hits everything.

archerno12 votes

You can easily if u avoid his shadows shuriken. 0and liandrys give you enough hp to survive. And since u played Ziggs u just need to put satchel during his R animation.

Yenn3 votes

{quoted}

You can easily if u avoid his shadows shuriken. 0and liandrys give you enough hp to survive. And since u played Ziggs u just need to put satchel during his R animation.

You have to assume he's going to get fed and build the Hourglass before it happens, because you can't stop your team mates from feeding him. Thinking that he's going to stay in a lane where he can't solo kill you is some dumb logic, and probably only holds true in Bronze.

In this game, Zed was fed from picking up 5 kills at bottom lane around 12 minutes.

My top lane was being dived by jungle + enemy top and I had just pushed Zed out of lane, so I went to stop it. While that happened, our bottom and jungle dived for a double kill, ignored my back pings, and tried to take the tower. Zed comes and cleans them up for a triple kill.

I returned to mid, and the enemy Sejuani immediately flash + ulted me under my turret, and Zed killed me while I was stunned.

While I was dead, bottom lane tried to dive again and forced the enemy bottom to recall, but had low health. They did the exact same thing and tried to take the turret, ignored my back pings, then Zed roamed down and picked up a double kill.

After this, his Q + auto + Duskblade were taking about 70% of my health bar, without ult.

archerno13 votes

{quoted}

Zed was fed from picking up 5 kills at bottom lane.

My top lane was being dived by jungle + enemy top and I had just pushed Zed out of lane, so I went to stop it. While that happened, our bottom and jungle dived for a double kill, ignored my back pings, and tried to take the tower. Zed comes and cleans them up for a triple kill.

I returned to mid, and the enemy Sejuani immediately flash + ulted me under my turret, and Zed killed me while I was stunned.

While I was dead, bottom lane tried to dive again and forced them to recall, but had low health. They ignored my back pings again, Zed roamed down, and picked up a double kill.

After this, his Q + auto + Duskblade were taking about 70% of my health bar, without ult. You have to assume he's going to get fed and build the Hourglass before it happens, because you can't stop your team mates from feeding him.

Yes hourglass was good idea. But Ludens?

Yenn2 votes

{quoted}

Yes hourglass was good idea. But Ludens?

Liandry's components don't provide enough AP to clear the caster minions with a single bomb unless you have a significant EXP advantage, so you end up leaving them with ~10 health, and your minions in turn end up stealing them. It also takes significantly longer to push the wave out, making it even harder to respond to Zed roaming.

You're basically giving up your ability to counter Zed's roaming + push effectively + reducing your overall income due to inability to wave clear, in exchange for being able to damage tanks.

archerno11 votes

{quoted}

Liandry's components don't provide enough AP to clear the caster minions with a single bomb unless you have a significant EXP advantage, so you end up leaving them with ~10 health, and your minions in turn end up stealing them. It also takes significantly longer to push the wave out, making it even harder to respond to Zed roaming.

You're basically giving up your ability to counter Zed's roaming + push effectively + reducing your overall income due to inability to wave clear, in exchange for being able to damage tanks.

Well you cant have everything. You want waveclear and push, high sustained damage against everyone burst ,gap closer, zone control and survivability.

Yenn2 votes

{quoted}

Well you cant have everything. You want waveclear and push, high sustained damage against everyone burst ,gap closer, zone control and survivability.

AD itemization provides all of this with cheap items, why do they get everything and AP doesn't?

Ralanr1 votes

What AD item gives a gap closer?

SnugglePuggle941 votes

None, but most AD carries have gap closers in their kits anyway, like Zed's stupid switching places with his shadow thing. Kat's shunpo, Akali ult, and so on.

Ralanr1 votes

So it’s incorrect that AD itemization provides all of that.

SnugglePuggle941 votes

I only said a gap closer, not the other stuff, which AD has.

Poske1 votes

Wait you were complaining about velkoz but you are playing Ziggs ????????????????? xd HAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAAAAAAAAAAAHHAHA

Battle of tier 36 champions

Ziggs is the best botlane Ap champ (if kog is banned) only time you should pick him

Khristophoros1 votes

As Vel'koz you dont need to itemize against tanks.

Yenn1 votes

{quoted}

As Vel'koz you dont need to itemize against tanks.

What are you going to do against a Sejuani and Cho'gath, both sitting on 4k health? Maybe you hit them with your combo and take off 25% of their health, but then their Ocean/Warmogs heals that up in the next couple of seconds.

Or more likely they get a shield and only lose 10% of their health.

Or you dump your entire kit onto them, and then Tristana jumps on top of you and two shots you.

Khristophoros1 votes

{quoted}

What are you going to do against a Sejuani and Cho'gath, both sitting on 4k health? Maybe you hit them with your combo and take off 25% of their health, but then their Ocean/Warmogs heals that up in the next couple of seconds.

Or more likely they get a shield and only lose 10% of their health.

Or you dump your entire kit onto them, and then Tristana jumps on top of you and two shots you.

idk what to do when the enemy team has drafted a perfect team comp and the rest of your own team is 4 itemless urdyrs.

Yenn1 votes

{quoted}

idk what to do when the enemy team has drafted a perfect team comp and the rest of your own team is 4 itemless urdyrs.

We're not playing the same game if you think you can rely on your team mates consistently. More often than not, I'm the only threat on my team.

Khristophoros1 votes

{quoted}

We're not playing the same game if you think you can rely on your team mates consistently. More often than not, I'm the only threat on my team.

I know, but it's not realistic to think you can win those games when your whole team gets owned besides you.

GripaAviara1 votes

I see they added a zhonya intermediar item, at least it was in the PBE at one time

crzymdscntst1 votes

In this example, there are 3 of them. Where are your other 2?

I understand the different focus people have, but it's very clear that when enemies group, your team needs to either heavy split push or group in counter.

Itemize for the tanks, your team will always have a problem with shredding them. If you have at least one tank, Zed shouldn't be able to get to you and as the APC, should want to target you as much as the ADC. Or split the difference and build RoA, Liandry's, Rylai's for a health-heavy shred build to counter the tanks and health to counter the assassin. Won't 100% save you from him, but hopefully should stall just long enough.

BobaFlautist1 votes

Do you not take exhaust against Zed? I can't really see Zed successfully killing you through exhaust, and it's not like Ziggs or Vel'koz desperately needs ignite or to or something.

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