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summoner diversity: flash cant be deleted, but it can be replaced

Critmaster Garen··22 votes·1,884 views

when it comes to summoner spell diversity summoner 4 has been an issue since season 1. it has become a crutch that is integrated into the balance of the game to a point that some champions wouldnt function properly without it. 10/10 champions take it despite multiple nerfs to cooldown and range over the years just because the versatility it provides in any situation.

it has become the number 1 means of escape and engage in most situations of any champion and is one of the most important cooldowns we have available.

from jungle ganks to skirmishes, one of the first and most important questions is, does your opponent have flash?

that doesnt mean that we need to keep it. instead of an all purpose summoner that acts as a tool to make offensive and defensive plays, it could be split up into several more specialized spells/item actives.

a more balanced version of summoner 32 fit for summoners rift could replace flash as a tool to make offensive plays without at the same time giving reliability and escape potential that flash offers. (the champions who would be the most interested would be melee fighters and tanks).

while the escape potential could be provided by separate spells or item actives like item 3150 (more attractive for squishy adc and mages)

summoner spell diversity should mean the choice between summoner 14 summoner 32 summoner 11 summoner 6 summoner 3 for aggressive plays

and summoner 1 summoner 21 summoner 3 summoner 7 summoner 6 for defense and escape

and summoner 11 {{summoner:2}} summoner 12 for utility and map control.

and should be chosen on a champion by champion basis. which champions need the extra ability to engage? which champion needs reliable escape?

this can only be really accomplished if flash doesnt crowd out other summoners as offensive and defensive ability, because it provides both.

40 Comments

Slamurai Jack6 votes

summoner 32 added to SR. Galio instantly God tier.

Critmaster Garen5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3Eda9hcE,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-10-18T17:10:52.332+0000)

summoner 32 added to SR. Galio instantly God tier.

depends on the cooldown, and range. not to mention the opportunity. if a front liner body blocks your mark and you might get 1 guys into the ult, its wasted.

or you might simply miss the mark.

{quoted}

Then everyone would be taking Teleport. Or maybe Exhaust or Cleanse.

only if flash is outright removed. tp and exhasut cant replace the ability to jump on someone from a distance or reposition over a wall. these options should still exist, but not simultanously in one spell.

not to mention exhaust is not as reliable as engage or escape as flash. due to being a debuff and the ability to cleanse it mostly. its effect is not instantaneous.

an exhaust/tibbers would never be as threatening as a flash/tibbers for example. and mark gives you the ability to evade the chain by dodging the skillshot.

Slamurai Jack2 votes

The question is then. do you want to play a game where Kalista summoner 1 summoner 3 is a thing?

Sire Hippington7 votes

if it means she can't flash out of my malph ult? hell yea, i want to play that game.

Oshlet1 votes

She can of course still jump out of your malph ult

Sire Hippington4 votes
  1. jump is shorter, so if i cernter my ult on her, i hit her anyway, and if not she still has to find the right direction, unlike flash
  2. her jump needs a target near by for an aa, or her Q, which both have some windup
  3. her jump is no instant move, she has some traveltime, which means in cunjunction with 2) that she needs waaaay faster reflexes to actually dodge
KONO RUBICK DA1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3Eda9hcE,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2015-10-18T17:46:16.730+0000)

The question is then. do you want to play a game where Kalista summoner 1 summoner 3 is a thing?

ZedTalon Rengar with cleanse or QSS

Jbels5 votes

It really is pretty dumb that there's a list of defensive summoner spells, a list of offensive ones, and then Flash is just both.

Prospector Pete1 votes

Exhaust is both too.

Critmaster Garen4 votes

{quoted}

It really is pretty dumb that there's a list of defensive summoner spells, a list of offensive ones, and then Flash is just both.

while a lot of champions by now outright rely on flash existing to function and make games, they usually only seem to rely on one aspect of it imo.

some need the extra ability to flash on someone to get in range to make their abilities work Morgana some need it as a tool to escape (usually marksmen)

it just occured to me that no champion actually needs all aspects of flash to be able to function.

[{quoted}](name=Prospector Pete,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3Eda9hcE,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-10-18T16:16:41.394+0000)

Exhaust is both too.

but exhaust can be cleansed and is affected by tenacity and other forms of cc reduction. this makes it not as reliable as flash for both uses. similar ghost can be countered by slows and doesnt provide the ability to skip walls.

Sammystorm2 votes

That is just not true. Most champions that aren't supports rely on both aspects pretty heavily. The simple fact that someone could flash on you adds potential kill pressure whether or not they actually ever use it that way. The way I look at it is that flash is primarily used offensively only in the early and mid game. Then in mid to late flash is almost exclusively used defensively.

Sammystorm2 votes

Most summoner spells that aren't terrible are both. summoner 21 Primarily defensive {{summoner:2}} Both aggressive and defensive summoner 13 Primarily just terrible and with no really clear use except to stay in lane a tiny bit longer. summoner 1 Primarily just defensive summoner 3 Defensive and offensive summoner 4 Defensive and offensive summoner 6 Defensive and offensive summoner 7 Primarily defensive summoner 14 Offensive summoner 11 Offensive and defensive summoner 12 Offensive and defensive

Out of all the summoner spells the defensive ones are used almost exclusively in bot lane in conjunction with a spell that is both offensive and defensive.

KONO RUBICK DA1 votes

{quoted}

Most summoner spells that aren't terrible are both. summoner 21 Primarily defensive {{summoner:2}} Both aggressive and defensive summoner 13 Primarily just terrible and with no really clear use except to stay in lane a tiny bit longer. summoner 1 Primarily just defensive summoner 3 Defensive and offensive summoner 4 Defensive and offensive summoner 6 Defensive and offensive summoner 7 Primarily defensive summoner 14 Offensive summoner 11 Offensive and defensive summoner 12 Offensive and defensive

Out of all the summoner spells the defensive ones are used almost exclusively in bot lane in conjunction with a spell that is both offensive and defensive.

tp can't be used defensively except if your enemies don't have cc smite defensivelY?

Sammystorm1 votes

Sure it can. TPing to lane is defensive or using it to save a turret

iamleburk2 votes

No it isn't. The thing about summoner spells is, they aren't really balanced against eachother (for the most part). I get this is kind of a hard concept to understand, but ill try my best to explain it. Think about it in terms of itemization. Why aren't deathcap and infinity edge balanced against eachother? Because that's not how it works. They are balanced in respect to the entire game, and some specific items in their niche. So heal and barrier are balanced with respect to each other, but ignite and ghost aren't. Different summoner spells are intended for different champs, so you can not really equalize the viability of all summoner spells. So in this analogy, imagine flash as boots. Is it also a problem that every body NEEDS to get boots at one point? Absolutely not, as long as its balanced within the context of the game.

In other words, flash being popular doesn't inherently make it unbalanced. Summoning spells aren't balanced with respect to eachother (other than a few exceptions like barrier/heal) but with respect to the game. Teleport is a little bit too powerful in this meta with the importance of bot lane brawls.

TurquoiseYoshi4 votes

Or we could just give everyone Flash automatically and open up other summoner spots.

Slamurai Jack6 votes

{quoted}

Or we could just give everyone Flash automatically and open up other summoner spots.

Do you really want every assassin to have room for Exhaust or Cleanse? Or every adc?

Icestar11861 votes

Then everyone would be taking Teleport. Or maybe Exhaust or Cleanse.

greenbird763 votes

Flash cannot be changed significantly without destroying the balance of the game. Nonmobile champions rely on flash as their escape as well as an offensive option. Meanwhile, mobile champions have other options - they can use their mobility as a substitute to flash as most mobility spells can be used to cover either the purpose of escape or engagement. For this reason, most mobile champions rely less on their flash because they can use other spells instead. If flash gets weaker or less versatile, all the mobility champions become stronger relative to their nonmobile counterparts as mobile champs still have the ability to do the things flash does. If flash gets stronger, nonmobile champions become stronger as they are now able to do more of the things that only mobile champs could do. The advantage of having mobility becomes less pressing as flash now covers more of the role of mobility spells.

As roughly 60% of all champs have mobility, changing flash significantly would cause huge meta shifts. Breaking flash up by function would do this to an extreme level. Characters that use flash for both offensive and defensive purposes such as Blitzcrank would be lose a lot of utility. Even if you made both flashes viable, the fact that you have to choose would make the lives of a number of champions much more difficult as they have lost 1/2 of the functionality granted by their summoner spell.

Putting the effects of flash on items would be even worse for the game for a number of reasons

  1. If you have to buy an item to get mobility, you aren't going to get in early laning phase - ganking you becomes much easier.
  2. It would homogenize the build paths of a number of champions. Ex. Support Annie would pretty much always need the offensive flash item regardless of how terrible could be.
  3. Being able to add additional summoners based on how the game is going could be pretty devastating. ADCs could become better at kiting depending on how the other team is playing, giving them more control with negligible counterplay.

I think if Riot actually intends to balance flash, they must do so in a way that destroys none of its power. They were considering using a trinket system with flash, while imperfect, would open up an extra summoner spell which would increase summoner diversity. Despite this, I think having flash, TP, and ignite could skew the meta significantly as well.

Sire Hippington1 votes

actually, i find my self doing better with ghost+x(usually cleanse on squishys) on immobile champs than on mobile ones...

greenbird762 votes

Ghost can't do most of the things flash can do though.

  • It often isn't enough to dodge skillshots at the last moment.
  • It can't go over terrain.
  • Offensively, ghost telegraphs your movements because it's not instant. Ghosting and walking up to stun is much less useful then flash + stun because it gives the opponent time to react. These usually make flash preferable to ghost, a phenomenon shown by the usage statistics of flash in competitive and normal play. I can't speak to why you have more success with ghost; however, it may be that you are more familiar with ghost than flash.
Sire Hippington1 votes

sure, flash overall is superior, but without flash, the most compareable summoner would be ghost, and ghost works better on immobile champs than on mobile, as most mobile champs rely on those splitsecond moves, while immobiles have strengths that allow for more systematic and planned playstyle. immobile meeles are generally very tanky, if they can't get out off danger imidiatly, it's not that bad, and unless you jumped over a wall, ghost covers way more ground than flash in the long run. If used well, it can ecven allow to dodge a skillshot and than engage and chase, while flash usually gives only one of the options, and not all at once. it allso is great at keeping distance onlongranged champs, which are all immobile, as **staying **out off your enemies reach works better with constant mobillity over a longer timeframe. those mobile shortranged champs are rather screwed, as they can't keep their distance, else they wouldn't contribute to the fight, they need something that gets them out of range imidiatly once things go bad. So if flash gets removed, it actually would hurt mobile chanps more than immobile, thus actually helping a bit vs mobillity creep.

Kitten of Evil1 votes

ghost works better on immobile champs than on mobile, as most mobile champs rely on those splitsecond moves, while immobiles have strengths that allow for more systematic and planned playstyle. immobile meeles are generally very tanky

Uhh... not all immobiles are melee: Brand Anivia Annie Lux Malzahar Velkoz Varus Ashe

And it is those champions that rely most heavily on having an escape button once per 5 minutes. Mobile champs by design have an escape every 8-20 seconds.

Sire Hippington1 votes

it allso is great at keeping distance on longranged champs,

which fits all off them but annie, and annie would profit a lot from the purposed summoner 32 version for summoners.

Kitten of Evil1 votes

Not just keeping distance, but jumping walls if you get cornered by the enemy or get caught out of position. Positioning is already incredibly important as an immobile champion and is much less important for a mobile one. Flash equalizes that slightly, because it fills a gap in the immobile kit, a gap that the mobile kit does not have.

The fact is, Flash means everyone has a chance to escape. It's on a 5 minute cooldown versus the 8-20 second cooldown of mobile champs, but everyone has the opportunity to take it, which is the only reason immobile mages/ADCs are viable at all. Would you roam or shove lane as Malzahar or Lux if you didn't have Flash up? Why would you? You get caught, you die. Even with wards up, you can't always get back to the safety of your tower in time. Meanwhile, the enemy Zed or Leblanc can roam or split push all they want because even if they get caught out, they have an escape. Even something like warding can be dangerous if Flash doesn't exist. Sure, 90% of the time the enemy Tahm Kench or Udyr isn't in river bush, but if he is, you're screwed even with Ghost.

Flash allows more aggressive and less static play because it can unexpectedly close (or open) a gap. Without it, only mobile champions can do that, so immobile ones will play passive.

Sire Hippington1 votes

Not just keeping distance, but jumping walls if you get cornered by the enemy or get caught out of position.

it's way easier to not be out of position or getting cornered if you have long range. http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.deaths&order=ascend&roleSort=Middle 9 out of the 10 midlaners with the least deaths are immobile, and number 10 is ahrie, who on top of a save range has mobillity. Range gives more Savety than Mobillity, and without oppnents useing flash to close the gap and denying your range advantage, that becomes even more true. save for kassasdin, all melee assasins are in the highest 14 deaths midlane...

You only need to flash away if you are in a danagerzone, and with long range, you rarly get into a danger zone, provided you gave proper positioning and ward your flanks, while mobile champs are in generall low ranged and squishy, they have to go into dangerzones to do anything, bout they are to squishy to stay there for long, hence they need theri mobillity to survive. If a Eco flashes out of a fight, he ends up still closer to said fight than lux is on her default position...

If we look at top, the top ten lowest deaths are imobile tanks and lulu(well, you could argue that shen is mobile with his taunt, or zac with his, which has a charge time that makes it rather bad as escape)...

mobile champs seem saver cuase they can make it out of a gank or clutch situations, but fact is that they end up in such situation FAR more often than most immobile champs. A lux might have a harder time reaching her tower if she's past the middle of the lane, but her range allows to farm the lane from nearly underneath her tower, giving her relative safety(that and her two ranged ccs + the shield)

Kitten of Evil1 votes

Sort of a chicken or the egg thing, that. Having Flash available is why immobile midlaners die less often. By the way, your melee assasins might die more, but they also kill more. http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.kills&order=descend&roleSort=Middle The 7 mid-laners with the most kills are mobile assassins. You might think that's a problem, but I think that's balanced. Assassins are meant to get in, kill one or two enemies, and get out (or die). Mages are supposed to zone, lock down, and burst. ADCs are supposed to DPS enemies down.

My point is that Flash encourages more dynamic play, because an immobile is much more likely to be caught out of position while roaming than while farming, and because anybody is going to feel more confident pushing if they have an escape spell up. It also encourages more warding and counter-warding, because there's a lower risk of getting locked down and killed as you ward river bush or take out an enemy ward.

Sammystorm3 votes

We need the defensive capabilities of flash. It is annoyance to have flash down on a mobile champ but on a immobile champ not having flash means you can't play aggressively unless you are 100% going to win.

fééd l0rd1 votes

Be careful what you wish for. Trust me it is okay that all are using flash. I dont want something new broken op shit in my games. just leave it like it is. remove the useless summs and its fine.

Hayaishi21 votes

Flash is in too deep already.

A Miss Fortune1 votes

I don't necessarily think It's because Flash is THE best Summoner Spell, but I think that a lot of other Spells need buffs too and maybe even new ones created.

summoner 13 someone mentioned that maybe after activating this, all of your abilities lose like 2 - 5 seconds of being on cooldown summoner 1 gives a small MS buff like QSS for like .5 - 1 seconds {{summoner:2}} please, please, please let this give assists or something else summoner 21 just give it 2 or 3 more second duration to match Ignite's duration

These 4 Summoner Spells could get a fair buff that makes them more reliable or less situational.

Gigahappytown1 votes

flash needs to be zhonyas ring'd and teleport needs a rework.

Greymoore1 votes

summoner 4 is in a very difficult situation. If we remove flash, then champions who rely on it to perform things like flash engages are severly nerfed while also removing the ability to steal Baron/Dragon for many junglers. Replace summoner 4 with and offensive alternative likesummoner 32 and a defensive one like the ability of item 3150 and players will always pick either summoner 32 or item 3150 ,Maybe even both or one of them plus another summoner spell which increases some diversity but not by much. Put the summoner 4 in an item and its highly likely that it becomes a must buy for almost every champion without an escape. Then we have the option of giving every one summoner 4 plus another two summoner spells. With this option Riot would probably have to look at how having access to a third summoner spell, affects the game because champions will be able to go more aggressive but that is counter by the fact that champions will also be able to go more defensive. Maybe even add a new spell that cancels movement modifiers for some time to counter highly mobile champions.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

As Greenbird said, making Defensive Flash an item and having the summoner spell require an enemy target is a terrible idea.

Elise LeeSin Nidalee RekSai Zac , pretty much every champion that was ever designed as a jungler was designed to be able to gank effectively against targets who had Flash up. If you can't Flash away from these champions their ganks become GUARANTEED KILLS, especially with the targeted movement speed steal from item 3709 .

No. Flash needs to stay, period. People stop crying about Flash. There's no way to fix this game without overhauling every champion. Not just their numbers, but their mobility, or lack thereof, and the reliability of their skills and missile speeds of their skill shots.

yay nibbers1 votes

summoner 32 balanced for the Rift would be cool as heck, but I think summoner 4 still has its place as an important positioning tool for dodging abilities. If you asked me, I think we should bring in summoner 32 and keep summoner 4 but give it a longer cooldown or something.

Vekkna1 votes

Already don't use flash on: Leblanc Katarina Ahri Singed Shyvana

Granted, that's a tiny subset of the champ pool. The thing about Flash is that I feel like it's never up when I really need it anyway because I'm trigger-happy with it or burn it when I die anyway. Exhaust, ignite, and tp all feel more impactful on champs who already have blinks.

Kitten of Evil1 votes

It is a really bad idea to put summoner spell actives on items. That means that some champions (typically assassins and carries) will be able to use those way earlier than others (tanks and supports). This is especially the case because, for it to be worth buying on an item, it would have to have a much reduced cooldown (like 90 seconds).

Aezanthya1 votes

Lol I can't even fathom why anyone would want flash to go ? Like seriously ? And you want to bring this OP as fuck snowball from aram to the rift ? So what you're saying is : I want to make every mobile champion overpowered as fuck while every immobile champs die from dust filling up their body. Seems legit and well tought of.

ShatoSummoner1 votes

Honestly, if you want a view of how summoners should be, look at smite. You don't pick it before the game starts, you buy it as an "Active" with usually 3 upgrades during the game. Options are a cleanse, a stasis, a blink (which requires 5 seconds out of combat to use with a much lower cd of 70 seconds, or a combat version with a 180 second cooldown) an aoe slow that can either decrease enemy healing or lower attack speed, an ability that reflects (but not reduces) 60% of incoming damage, an ability that increases attack speed and life steal dramatically but increases damage taken, a generic movement speed boost that can either be just for you or can have a smaller boost for your allies, and a few others like smite. And there are quite a few immobile champions in smite as well, but guess what? Very few of them get blink. And if you're playing a god who does have mobility? Almost NEVER. Most immobile gods are extremely squishy mages, but regardless of this blink is completely nonviable on them. Moreover, the ability to choose what "Summoners" to grab after the game has started and is progress allows you to actually think beyond champ select. The drawback? You have to pay gold for it.

Midder Scray1 votes

I'm not really sure that converting it into an item active would really help, because then everyone would be relying on that item as much as we rely on them now. Not to mention, there's already only 6 inventory slots. So unless Riot added "active" slots like in Smite, where you can purchase two actives that don't count towards your stat items, everyone would be missing out on an actual full build

Personally, I don't see what the problem with flash is. I understand Riot wants to create some diversity, but is flash not diverse already? You can use it for so many things that it could basically be three spells. You can use it to kill someone, to get away from someone or something, to steal a baron or dragon, to get in the middle of a teamfight and use some CC, etc.

So really I don't think flash is an issue, but that's just me. What I'm saying is, Riot wants to create diversity but flash itself is already pretty diverse and you can use it for a number of situations. I'm not saying that it can't be replaced by another summoner spell or item, I'm just saying I highly doubt Riot would be able to come up with anything to replace it and not have it break lots of things and make a lot of people angry

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