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What is your opinion on Lulu?

Ghiefelstein··6 votes·1,609 views

Welcome! I am gathering opinions about Lulu to answer the ultimate question: What should happen to Lulu? That is a very difficult question that even Riot has trouble with. If you read their posts over the last 6 months, you get the general impression that Lulu is not in an ideal place, but Riot is also not sure what to do with her. Messaging went something like this:

Patch 4.5: "We had to hit some of Lulu's high offensive power, but we're also committed to ensuring this doesn't have a huge impact on support Lulu". Statikk: "As it currently stands, we have no plans for further changes to Lulu at the moment since we'd like to continue to see how she trends in the following patches." Patch 4.13: "We know this isn't a great situation where we keep indirectly reducing support Lulu's power to maintain her viability as a mage, so this is something we'll have to really consider for the future."

Maybe we can help out. After all, quite some time has passed since Riot last spoke about Lulu. In the meanwhile there have been many great posts and discussions about her. Below I listed a few with different points of view. You don't have to read it all, but maybe a particular post inspires you. Hopefully that works as a starting point for discussion!

Identity

Is Lulu a poke support champion because I cannot see it Asks how Lulu is supposed to be a poking support champion. @Riot why Lulu is no longer in line with your design values Claims 'adaptability' is core for Lulu's identity. @Morello what is the long term vision for Lulu Especially the comments here are worth reading.

Kit changes

Riot if you really REALLY don't want Lulu to be anything but a support, here's what you do Proposal to delete scalings and give back base values. @Riot, Thoughts on Lulu and the support role in general Shifting power from Q to E, says utility scaling doesn't work. Give Lulu a new offensive E Some ideas for a new offensive E. A Lulu change that I feel is too obvious but seems to have gone unconsidered Make each bolt do half of Q's damage.

Other common changes include removing waveclear or removing the self casting for some abilities.

Balance issues

Lulu needs a nerf Sums up some OP and problematic parts of her kit. Lulu... This is not a healthy champion Asks for a positive way to change Lulu without destroying her. About Lulu Is afraid support Lulu becomes too weak.

I probably missed many valid threads or opinions, so now it is your turn. What are your thoughts on Lulu? What do you want her to be? Do you like her as she is? What would you like to change? Looking forward to hear your opinions.

15 Comments

Eapenator2 votes

My personal opinion on lulu was that as a support champion, she functions exactly has she should. She had good design intentions behind every single one of her abilities, and she had to make meaningful choices (the duality of her abilities, being able to provides effects for her team mates, or cast them on the enemy team). I found that she was one of the best anti all in supports in her time.

It is truly a shame that she needs to be reworked, but sadly it is necessary.

Ghiefelstein2 votes

Can you explain why she needs to be reworked? What problems does she have that cannot be fixed with numbers? Can she still be one of the best anti all in supports while mage Lulu exists?

Eapenator3 votes

If you want my honest opinion,

I do not think that riot should ever design a support champion for 2 roles. If that champion has to sacrifice something in one role in order to even out its other roles, then that champion is already a failure.

When you have as many champions has League of Legends does, it becomes a matter of what this champion can bring to this team. If a champion is really good at one aspect of their role, they should preserve that and make it as strong as they can in a healthy manner.

The new soraka is a good example of this. The new soraka cannot survive in solo lanes like she could before. Before, her support role was ruined because her solo lane was too strong. This is what is happening to Lulu, and it is sad.

Of course, I don't mind champions occupying different roles in a HEALTHY manner. Karma, zyra, seem to do this alright. Maokai can both jungle and top now. Jayce can go top and bottom.

Supports are really rather difficult to balance for multiple roles because their game play patterns have extremely dangerous patterns of game play, and in order to tone these patterns down, most support spells rely on using allies in order to maximize their abilities (soraka, janna).

So yes, while preserving lulu for both lanes is an option, I think that if Riot can make a kit where lulu has unique strengths from the other supports, and balance her in such a way where she cannot function in other lanes, I would be perfectly happy.

Ghiefelstein2 votes

I agree that each champion should bring something unique to the team. Support Lulu has that: She is exceptionally strong against assassins and all-in. But mage Lulu is picked regardless of team compositions. i wonder what Riot sees as a healthy niche for mage Lulu.

I hope Riot can explain what makes solo lane Lulu worth keeping in the game. They had 6 months to think about it. Solo Lulu caused quite some problems, I wonder what justifies that. If Riot has no explanation, I would be perfectly happy with a support-only Lulu too.

Eapenator2 votes

Well considering where solo lane lulu is right now, I would say that she is 'Balanced'

There are a lot more other top lane picks that are now definitely better than lulu. In addition to this, taking lulu mid lane is also rather difficult now as well.

The problem is that her support role is, while not weak, far from satisfactory compared to other support champions in the game now, due to all her nerfs. I gave the idea that reworking would be an option because with the way her kit is designed, if she can deal damage, then she can wave clear, and kite extremely well, while surviving ganks, and poke. All of these things are what makes her so good at being a solo laner and a bottom lane support.

This is where it gets interesting though. What gates support lulu from being very strong in the bottom lane (before all her numerous nerfs) is that she needs to split her 4 spells among a possible 5 targets.

  1. Enemy Adc
  2. Enemy Support
  3. Enemy Jungler
  4. Ally Adc
  5. Yourself

Good lulu's will be able to decide on the fly who needs to speed up or cc, who needs the shield, or should I position for a glitter lane on all three enemies, should I ulti my self or my adc carry. Remember that lulu needs to use her spells on the correct people in order to maxmize

  1. the best trade
  2. surviability of her self and her Adc

This opens up the possibility for Lulu to make the RIGHT and WRONG decisions.

Now look at the amount of decisions that solo lane lulu has to make. All solo lane lulu needs to do when engaged by the enemy top laner and jungler is to maximize HER survival only. In addition to this, while her effects needed to be used on multiple target before, now, all she has to do is cast them all on her self so she can kite and escape, wasting jungler time, and lessening pressure on other lanes. I believe that this is where Riot needs to solo lane lulu HARD. If they can design her spells in a fashion where they are not as effective when casted on just her, then introduce some buffs back to her, she may see a return bottom lane.

Ghiefelstein1 votes

You describe very well what I like about Lulu. The duality of her abilities forces her to make decisions on the fly and gives the option for RIGHT or WRONG decisions. It makes her adaptable to many situations. In fact, I would say that keeping that interesting decision-making is highly desirable.

Therefore I disagree with your suggesting for self casting. Reducing the effectiveness on self-cast removes meaningful decision making. Ulting, shielding or speeding yourself up is situationally strong and in my eyes worth keeping. Even solo lane Lulu has to decide between damaging or shielding and polymorphing or speeding up.

You assessed solo lane Lulu as 'balanced', but would like to see buffs to her support role. How would you do that? One of my suggestions is reworking offensive E (http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/ylEH01gg-give-lulu-a-new-offensive-e) Any other ideas to give support Lulu power without pushing solo lane Lulu over the top?

I see the suggestion 'remove X and then buff her somewhere else' a lot. Unfortunately people always know what they want removed or reduced, but not what to buff. It is actually very hard to buff (support) Lulu without making her oppressive.

  • Buff her CC? She already has a disable, AOE slows and an AOE knockup. Anything extra will give her Nautilus level CC.
  • Buff her mana costs? Look how she spams glitterlance to push you out of lane and/or waveclear.
  • Buff her damage? Solo lane Lulu pushes out other picks.
  • Buff her survivability? People already complain solo lane Lulu is unkillable.
  • Buff her movement speed? Maybe, especially after the nerf to Whimsy. Lower movement speed is however something that makes her different from other supports.
Lwnt5 votes

I dont think lulu needs a rework but I do think she needs a buff compensation when it comes to utility but not with number changes.

So some buff compensation:

  1. Make any target that is polymorph (W skill) have their defense reduce by a specific percentage ( and should scale). This is something that riot said they wanted to add but is taking forever.
  2. I believe that E skill on an enemy should be another CC instead of just damage and vision granting. Like a vision CC. Mention in this post: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/ylEH01gg-give-lulu-a-new-offensive-e

Lastly I think riot should DO this but they will never do it is make the utility scale with a different stat instead of AP. I play lulu support all the time but I have no problem if people want to paly lulu mid and Lulu top. But as you know riot has a problem with it (even though they say they dont, they really do. Actions speak louder than words look at how much nerf actions they did on lulu and soraka). The reason is that Lulu dont allow counterplay in solo lane. In my head I am like what do you expect when you allow utility scale with AP.

Lulu in solo lane vs mage in support lane

-Lulu in solo lane can make money faster than support lane which allow solo LULU to buy better expensive ap items faster compare to support lulu. -Lulu solo dont need to buy sightstone and a gold income item leaving this item slot for better expensive ap items. Which means LULU solo will have Damage scaling better into late game compare to support lulu Utility scaling better into late game compare to support lulu.

Which leads to meele top laners calling her: CANCER CANCER CANCER leading riot to: NERF NERF NERF and causing support lulu players to: CRY CRY CRY.

When mage goes in support lane -Have high base damage that annoys the hell out of player that play support kind of champion. -They mostly build Ap and their damage scales slower into late game and maybe weaker (if they buy sightstone) compare to mid. -There utility does not scale but instead stay the same into late game compare to the same mage in mid lane. Causing riot not to nerf them so much because they allow counterplay.

By allowing lulu to scale her utility with a different stat you allow support lulu to have stronger utility into late game the one who is suppose to. They can bring the decaying reduce thing on Q if they do this because Top and mid solo lulu cannot abuse it if it doesnt scale with AP.

An example will be Zantana from the MOBA infinite crisis. She has similar skills to lulu but for her the utility scales with will (will=mana in LOL) and damage scales with power damage (power damage = Ability power in LOL). I thought it was so cool because if I want to play her in the support lane I would buy a lot of will and little power damage. If I wanted to play her in mid lane I would buy more power damage then will. I feel like lulu should have something like that.

Well that my thoughts on lulu and sorry if its to long. I hope riot read this post!!!!!!!!!!!!!! but probably not. Lulu

Sire Hippington1 votes

the only question is with what stat would her utillity scale? The only thing i can think off is health, but having that small quirly yordle stacking health seems like failing the fantasy of the chracter big times. mana or defstat scaleings could get abused by sololanes just like ap...

I don'T think suppoerts really need utillity-scalings, if a support wants to get more utillity, there are plenty different items offering some.

Lwnt1 votes

Well one of them could be mana stat and put that as one of the stats in support items. Or make an entirely new stats and place that on support items.

I have to disagree with you about utility scaling, because support like lulu will never have the most damage in the game even if we buy all high ap items. Another thing is lulu will never be the most tankiest champion even if she buys all defensive item. What makes lulu unique is her utility. While all other champion can scale their damage and their tankiness I would like my skills utility to scale into late game so that I could feel like I am having a greater impact in the game by helping my ally with stronger buffs and stopping the enemy with stronger cc.

There a difference between stronger utility and increasing the # of Utility because if I wanted to increase the # of utility I would buy more support items, but if I wanted a stronger utility I would need that utility to scale.

SnowFall2 votes

Most supports leaving botlane to be soloers may seem like goddamn op Janna Alistar Lulu Soraka Zilean Kayle Karma But actually they have so much more counterplay than typical sololaners, it's just that, the window for counterplay is much smaller but it does hit them harder People are too used for the common plays that champions under "bruiser, mage" tags exhibit, the support play differs greatly from those Not having much experience is the main reason to call your opponent's champion op.

Hullabaloo9072 votes

When i play support Lulu, the mana costs always destroy me. Other lanes can rush strong mana regen items, but since i need both a sightstone and a gold income item, it really hurts my laning phase as a support. Maybe i am doing something wrong, but thats always my biggest problem.

Maybe a gold income item that built from chalice would help, because i know Lulu isnt the only support with this problem.

Astralift2 votes

I think Lulu's Q damage should be kept as is for the sake of the rework, but she really doesn't need any more damage as a mage OR as a support. What she needs is lower mana costs, reduced damage AP ratios (the damage from E should be removed entirely; this alone would remove her from solo lanes), and Pix needs to provide additional scaling (or non-scaling) utility and his own versions of Lulu's skills, not just Glitterlance.

Pix and Lulu should be a team -- a duo. Pix's versions of Lulu's skills should change depending on who he is attached to.

For example:

-Lulu uses E to attach Pix to an enemy. -Lulu uses W on her ALLY to grant them the speed boost. -Simultaneously, Pix casts his own version of W on THE ENEMY HE'S ATTACHED TO. (This could be a shorter version of the polymorph, damage reduction, enemy attack redirection (I dunno, get creative), or the entire polymorph effect; that last part could only really happen if Pix is gated somehow. More on that soon).

The effects that occur depending on whether Pix's target is friend or foe could vary and be iterated on until it's something reasonable. Like I said get creative. You could even make it so if Pix and Lulu cast their spell on the same target, something fae-ific would happen, increasing the effectiveness of the spell in some way.

If this became too unreasonable or overbearing, Pix could be gated. How? By making it so he can only cast one spell once he's attached to a target, be it friend or foe. Q or W, you would have to make a choice. Just tossing ideas around.

These (very vague) changes that I suggest would NOT in any way grant additional burst damage. Damage over time or on hit --maybe--, but nothing that would make her excel unless she has someone to excel with.

In my opinion this would deepen her gameplay, add additional levers to pull for Riot to balance, thematically tie in with the familiar fantasy and her whimsical, mischievous nature, and make her a good support while getting her out of a solo lanes. Because let's face it, unless she's removed from solo lanes where she can bully people around, she will not be allowed to be a competent support. I'm sorry for all those top/mid Lulu players out there that want her mid no matter what, but Lulu is a support FIRST, and a mage SECOND, and I will gladly relinquish her mage side if I can get her support side to a solid state.

SpecterVonBaren2 votes

Too many nerfs. It used to be that Lulu and Nami were my go to supports that I enjoyed playing, but after all those nerfs it no longer feels good to use her. Further, due to the change to w, she no longer has anything that could be called a 'one point wonder', you need to put points into everything for them to be at all satisfactory. And I miss being able to shield minions, it had a lot to it, you could deny the enemy adc a canon minion by screwing up their timing, and it also helped set up a long range glitterlance because it would help keep the minion you attached pix to to not die before you could use q.

Now I just don't use her anymore, and neither does anyone else, only once in a blue moon do I see Lulu anywhere let alone as a support.

exiledFromBadmen1 votes

She's godd*mn OP. None other than it.

bitdullblade1 votes

I haven't been able to play Lulu support in a long time and am nervous to try her in any other role. I feel confused when I see her in any other role dominating just because I struggle using her in support (though she seems really hit or miss in those other roles too). I think she is having such a tough time as support right now because supports with heals seems to be the thing. That is the one thing that is not in her kit, and while I don't think she needs it I think that all her poke ends up meaning nothing when the adc is just going to be healed back to their original health. If you want to play her as poke support, her mana seems to be a huge issue early game. Also when you have to focus building support items first and then AP items, she also suffers without a good amount of early AP. Now I know that there are support items with AP and Mana regen but this doesn't seem like enough. Sometimes I feel like the people I support just aren't sure what to do with a Lulu support because she has been out of play for a while (at least the "elo" I am at). Maybe right now it would be better to shift to a defensive Lulu instead of a poke support. I had just played her recently and got dominated in lane vs a Nami support (which oddly enough has been my new main support). All I know is I wish Riot would give her a clear role, I really miss playing Lulu support. I probably had the most fun supporting when I played her.
Perhaps if they did something like change her mana or health that might even help. I am not great with the numbers and scaling so I can't really tell if it is her AP scaling or what.But,It seems like she is fine when you actually get the AP items on her.

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