If Assassins are meant to be feast or famine. Why not add some risk to dusk-blade users?

Resolution·Jul 4, 2018·20 votes·7,209 views

Currently, there's no downside to picking up Duskblade, it's a sweeper that drastically boosts offensive power. It's probably the most popular item in League at the moment.

If Assasins are meant to be high risk, feast and famine champions - Why is there almost no risk in just buying this item and going all in at any point of the game?

Why not give the item another subtext like "After procing Nightstalker, take 15% extra damage from enemy champions". That way it becomes a high risk-reward like Mejai's, rather than just take this item every game with little to no counterplay.

55 Comments

JamareeJul 4, 201813 votes

Is there any item in the game with a downside?

ResolutionJul 4, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Is there any item in the game with a downside?

Well, most items have a certain gold value associated with how much stats you get out of it - only when compared to other items of the same value do you see it. It's more or less no downside to taking it over another item.

JamareeJul 4, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Well, most items have a certain gold value associated with how much stats you get out of it - only when compared to other items of the same value do you see it. It's more or less no downside to taking it over another item.

Why should or would there be?

MicbranJul 4, 20181 votes

other than opportunity cost and Mejai’s, no

M00ndanc3Jul 4, 20185 votes

gargoyles reduces damafe delt by 40%, and bami makes tower dives harder and can also make warding around dragon and baron a little more difficult, othere than that though the only other down side is streangth lose on using an active item and it being on cd or it costing a lot more for a single item upgrade do to passive.

SanKakUJul 4, 20181 votes

I never buy Gargoyle's armor and if they nerfed Duskblade like this I probably wouldn't get it, either. But I think some people would still buy the nerfed Duskblade like that. After all, they used to take double edged sword which was a rune that increased damage against them permanently.

M00ndanc3Jul 4, 20181 votes

I remember that, wasn't it like 12% increased damage but you took 6% more damage, and I like to buy gargoyles on tanks who like to blow there load at the begining and than just turn into meatspounges, or tanks like maokai who aren't really there for the little bit of damage tied to cc and tankyness arn't relient on the damage they deal.

ZackTheWaffleManJul 4, 20181 votes

I think it was 5% increased damage dealt/taken

LordGeovanniJul 5, 20181 votes

im sure one iteration was 3% dealt 1.5% taken and 1.5 dealt and taken for ranged champions there may have also been one with 5% damage dealt 2.5 damage taken.

JamareeJul 4, 20182 votes

{quoted}

gargoyles reduces damafe delt by 40%

Forgot about that one.

and bami makes tower dives harder and can also make warding around dragon and baron a little more difficult, othere than that though the only other down side is streangth lose on using an active item and it being on cd or it costing a lot more for a single item upgrade do to passive.

You can play around the bami's one.

IcyPepperJul 4, 20182 votes

True, but reducing your damage isn't as big of a deal for several gargoyle champions (especially tanks who are going in to soak damage and cc the enemy) while increasing damage dealt to you is kind of a big deal for squishy champions.

Something more reasonable, imo, would be something like Pyke's passive. Maybe an assassin item that reduces bonus HP by whatever % and converts it to AD (obviously would not work on Pyke, if you're worried about stacking).

RanmaruJul 4, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Is there any item in the game with a downside?

item 3812

JamareeJul 4, 20185 votes

{quoted}

Is that a downside? Damage over time instead of direct damage, sure, it is true, but that gives you time to regen back instead of just dying.

EkyonKunJul 4, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Is that a downside? Damage over time instead of direct damage, sure, it is true, but that gives you time to regen back instead of just dying.

Could be talking about how the bleed prohibits you from recalling for 3 seconds.

Warlord RhinarkJul 5, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Is that a downside? Damage over time instead of direct damage, sure, it is true, but that gives you time to regen back instead of just dying.

If you're hit by, say, a Caitlyn ult, with Death's Dance and there isn't any thing to leech life off of in range, you might actually have survived if you hadn't bought the item.

JamareeJul 5, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=34zJBlM3,comment-id=0000000300000001,timestamp=2018-07-05T07:12:29.717+0000)

If you're hit by, say, a Caitlyn ult, with Death's Dance and there isn't any thing to leech life off of in range, you might actually have survived if you hadn't bought the item.

That's fair.

I Support SolarJul 5, 20182 votes

Huh? Okay, I'm clearly the slow one here.

It would be the same amount of damage, just 30% of it would be dealt over time, right? How would you survive either way?

Warlord RhinarkJul 5, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=I Support Solar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=34zJBlM3,comment-id=00000003000000010001,timestamp=2018-07-05T13:27:56.525+0000)

Huh? Okay, I'm clearly the slow one here.

It would be the same amount of damage, just 30% of it would be dealt over time, right? How would you survive either way?

Because the damage that's dealt over time gets converted into true damage.

I.E, that 30% of the damage you took might have been mitigated by your armor, but since it isn't physical damage anymore, you can't do anything about it.

I Support SolarJul 5, 20181 votes

I see. Ty.

ChaddyFantomeJul 5, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=34zJBlM3,comment-id=000000030000000100010000,timestamp=2018-07-05T13:32:50.544+0000)

Because the damage that's dealt over time gets converted into true damage.

I.E, that 30% of the damage you took might have been mitigated by your armor, but since it isn't physical damage anymore, you can't do anything about it.

That's not how it works. What is being converted to True damage is the damage you WOULD have taken anyway. The reason it is made into True damage is so that it isn't being checked and mitigated twice by your resistances.

That Caitlyn Ult is killing you regardless of you having the item or not.

Warlord RhinarkJul 6, 20181 votes

{quoted}

That's not how it works. What is being converted to True damage is the damage you WOULD have taken anyway. The reason it is made into True damage is so that it isn't being checked and mitigated twice by your resistances.

That Caitlyn Ult is killing you regardless of you having the item or not.

I wouldn't know. The wikia didn't say this specifically.

ChaddyFantomeJul 12, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=34zJBlM3,comment-id=00000003000000010001000000010000,timestamp=2018-07-06T06:27:47.495+0000)

I wouldn't know. The wikia didn't say this specifically.

Lets give an example.

Let's say Cait Ulti hits you. Because of your Armor, it does 1000 damage. Because of Death's dance, you only take 700 upfront and the rest is turned into the Bleed. You bleed for 300 damage.

If that Bleed wasn't true damage, your armor would mitigate that bleed and you'd actually take less damage than you should.

EDIT: Additionally, it would probably make it so item 3071 would apply itself over the bleed, potentially making you take MORE damage than you should.

The reason its converted to true damage is so that you receive exactly the right amount of damage you should have.

ChaddyFantomeJul 5, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=34zJBlM3,comment-id=0000000300000001,timestamp=2018-07-05T07:12:29.717+0000)

If you're hit by, say, a Caitlyn ult, with Death's Dance and there isn't any thing to leech life off of in range, you might actually have survived if you hadn't bought the item.

No, because if the bleed from Dance kills you, it means that the Caitlyn's Ultimate would have killed you anyway if you didn't have Death's Dance.

Lets have shrexJul 4, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Is there any item in the game with a downside?

item 3157 no mana regen / mana regen yet a must have if you're a mage against a mid assassin

JamareeJul 4, 20186 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lets have shrex,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=34zJBlM3,comment-id=00000004,timestamp=2018-07-04T23:21:15.545+0000)

no mana regen / mana regen yet a must have if you're a mage against a mid assassin

I don't think that is a downside, just different cost opportunity.

Chembaron YamadaJul 5, 20186 votes

item 2420 item 3157 activating these roots you in place item 3042 auto attacks consume mana item 3095 reduced crit damage as long as you have low crit chance item 3193 reduces your damage while activated

JamareeJul 5, 20181 votes

{quoted}

activating these roots you in place auto attacks consume mana reduced crit damage as long as you have low crit chance reduces your damage while activated

Right right.

remakoroJul 5, 20181 votes

item 3041 - unless you can stack its waste of gold and slots. item 1083 item 3070 item 3027 - long time investements. Sword of occult - removed Leviathan - removed Questionably so - item 3109 - if you aint around your buddy its only gives 1700g worth of stats. With actual cost of 2300g. Also you kinda taking true dmg at the rate some squishy target would do. So its kinda downside as well.

JamareeJul 5, 20181 votes

{quoted}

- unless you can stack its waste of gold and slots.

Fair.

- long time investements.

Don't see those as downsides, but more different cost opportunities.

Questionably so - - if you aint around your buddy its only gives 1700g worth of stats. With actual cost of 2300g. Also you kinda taking true dmg at the rate some squishy target would do. So its kinda downside as well.

True kind of.

ChaddyFantomeJul 5, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Questionably so - - if you aint around your buddy its only gives 1700g worth of stats. With actual cost of 2300g. Also you kinda taking true dmg at the rate some squishy target would do. So its kinda downside as well.

I mean, that just comes with the territory of being a support in the first place really.

ModKnightsKemplarJul 5, 20182 votes

Well, to me, the more important thing is that there's no strategic change to your play buying that item. Zhonya's, you have to activate intelligently, Banshee's requires you to be out of combat for awhile to get your shield back, Liandry's rewards you for staying in combat longer, etc. These items, themselves, have some counterplay because of that.

Duskblade, by contrast, is just a giant ball of stats that make a frustrating class even more frustrating. Edge of Night and Ghostblade have high moments that people can play around; Duskblade doesn't. That's why Duskblade gets complained about (and bought) more than the other two lethality items. It's just stronger than the other two, plain and simple.

JamareeJul 5, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Well, to me, the more important thing is that there's no strategic change to your play buying that item. Zhonya's, you have to activate intelligently, Banshee's requires you to be out of combat for awhile to get your shield back, Liandry's rewards you for staying in combat longer, etc. These items, themselves, have some counterplay because of that.

Duskblade, by contrast, is just a giant ball of stats that make a frustrating class even more frustrating. Edge of Night and Ghostblade have high moments that people can play around; Duskblade doens't. That's why Duskblade gets complained about (and bought) more than the other two lethality items. It's just stronger than the other two, plain and simple.

To be fair, if you want to compare it to those items, you also have to include that those three items you mentioned above gives defenses that Duskblade does not.

ModKnightsKemplarJul 5, 20181 votes

Those items are pretty obviously not as problematic, though. You don't rush Zhonya's or Banshee's on every AP mage, just because the item is clearly better than every other choice. That's basically what Duskblade is, and that's why it's a problem. My point has nothing to do with what the stats are; there shouldn't be an item that defines a class that heavily imo.

Again, if Duskblade was bought 33% of the time compared to Ghostblade and Edge, I wouldn't have a problem with it. It's the dominance of the item that is the problem.

JamareeJul 5, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Those items are pretty obviously not as problematic, though. You don't rush Zhonya's or Banshee's on every AP mage, just because the item is clearly better than every other choice. That's basically what Duskblade is, and that's why it's a problem. My point has nothing to do with what the stats are; there shouldn't be an item that defines a class that heavily imo.

Again, if Duskblade was bought 33% of the time compared to Ghostblade and Edge, I wouldn't have a problem with it. It's the dominance of the item that is the problem.

Ohhhhhhh, kk, that's fair.

ChaddyFantomeJul 5, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Well, to me, the more important thing is that there's no strategic change to your play buying that item. Zhonya's, you have to activate intelligently, Banshee's requires you to be out of combat for awhile to get your shield back, Liandry's rewards you for staying in combat longer, etc. These items, themselves, have some counterplay because of that.

Duskblade, by contrast, is just a giant ball of stats that make a frustrating class even more frustrating. Edge of Night and Ghostblade have high moments that people can play around; Duskblade doesn't. That's why Duskblade gets complained about (and bought) more than the other two lethality items. It's just stronger than the other two, plain and simple.

I was with you up until you brought up liandry's because it really isn't any different than dusk blade. If anythign, DuskBlade affects my play style more than Liandry's, since it encourages me to jump in and out of teamfights to reset to proc. It also requires i auto attack more, and the passive encourages me to scout for wards to clear for the team.

Liandry's is just free damage amp and burn on all my spells, especially due to how it works, it really doesn't change your playstyle at all, especially on the champions that ACTUALLY buy it since they are DPS oriented anyway.

ModKnightsKemplarJul 5, 20181 votes

Liandries is a weaker argument than Zhonya's or Banshee's, for sure.

But it's an important example to me because of what you said. For the user, it feels like free stats, but the implications of the passive give clear counterplay to the opponent, as well. That is, realistically, what I want to happen with Duskblade.

You may be right, though, that Liandries is also an offender. Meddler mentioned buffs, and I think if it's too strong, it will become a lot like Duskblade for some users. That would not be a good thing.

ChaddyFantomeJul 12, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Liandries is a weaker argument than Zhonya's or Banshee's, for sure.

For the user, it feels like free stats, but the implications of the passive give clear counterplay to the opponent, as well.

In what way really? because outside of "don't get hit" and "don't fight the champion if you don't instantly delete them" i don't see how it does that at all.

Zone of EndlessJul 4, 20184 votes

Problem is Riot doesn't want feast or famine champ in their game so there's not really 'high risk' associated with assassin anymore.

ResolutionJul 4, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zone of Endless,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=34zJBlM3,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-07-04T20:00:53.457+0000)

Problem is Riot doesn't want feast or famine champ in their game so there's not really 'high risk' associated with assassin anymore.

That's my main issue right now - The class was designed to make smart plays by choosing when and not to engage squishy targets caught out. With how much damage currently is in game, it's become all in on anyone regardless if they were caught out or not.

With the shield nerfs, which was the direct counterplay to assassins. They have free reign to win any lane without counterplay. Even if you build tanky there's enough true damage and pentration on items now just to neglect most of it.

420 gramsJul 4, 20182 votes

That's a pretty dramatic change. Why not something as simple as it doesn't tell you whether or not you have the buff up.

Akali is SO HOTJul 4, 20182 votes

That's every single item in the game aside from a select few that have downsides for a very good reason.

Red WreckageJul 5, 20182 votes

Where did you read that riot games actually support/prefers feast or famine style of gameplay? They've made changes to champs who were heavily feast or famine type of champs.

"After procing Nightstalker, take 15% extra damage from enemy champions" LMFAO

but still weak. why not make it so that duskblade explodes dealing 50% max HP true damage to user after proc?

iDarkWindJul 5, 20182 votes

Far as I am concerned, Duskblade Lethality and Passive scale with levels. if an Assassin is behind, Duskblade loses a lot in terms of effective stats.

big boi edriJul 5, 20182 votes

Everyone complaining about item 3147 like that shit damage on hit they nerfed it to is what is actually killing them.

You're dying to Electrocute most likely, the Dusk proc is usually overkill. The slow is killing you, allowing for more attacks in a short time. The proc damage though? No, you'd be dead with or without it in most cases.

Modl Ryden lJul 5, 20182 votes

Oh my goodness..

Feast or famine was just a byproduct of an assassins kit, due to the fact that their cooldowns/costs are only good for one burst. If the assassin fails to kill with all abilities then they begin to fall behind or its because they're already behind. Feast or famine is not a direct characteristic of their kit. It's not about risking for a reward its playing with what you have. A lot of the all-ins are premeditated. When you say risk, then you're saying that you're praying, "Hail Mary..." before going in. Which is not what an assassin does.

ChaddyFantomeJul 5, 20182 votes

Currently, there's no downside to picking up Duskblade,

Its an item. Why should their be?

What's the downside to building item 3285 or item 3109 ?

Why not give the item another subtext like "After procing Nightstalker, take 15% extra damage from enemy champions". That way it becomes a high risk-reward like Mejai's, rather than just take this item every game with little to no counterplay.

Comparing this to Mejais is the most disgusting thing i ever read on this board.

Why not just bring back SotO instead?

Glory97Jul 5, 20181 votes

No. Just give assassins some stat nerfs and they'll be fine. If you add that weird thing it will just make assassins who are already behind 10 times more useless, because there is essentially no way for them to accomplish anything before dying, while not really affecting those who are already snowballing. Feast and famine is a very unhealthy playstyle and buffs and nerfs shouldn't further empathise this aspect of assassin gameplay.

ResolutionJul 5, 20181 votes

{quoted}

No. Just give assassins some stat nerfs and they'll be fine. If you add that weird thing it will just make assassins who are already behind 10 times more useless, because there is essentially no way for them to accomplish anything before dying, while not really affecting those who are already snowballing. Feast and famine is a very unhealthy playstyle and buffs and nerfs shouldn't further empathise this aspect of assassin gameplay.

Most Assasins get massive strength from summoner 14 item 3147 and electricute combo - letting them snowball off damage not even in their base kit.

I don't think nerfing assassins base stats will fix the problem when most of the strength is coming from favorable runes and itemization for that class.

ChaddyFantomeJul 5, 20181 votes

{quoted}

No. Just give assassins some stat nerfs and they'll be fine. If you add that weird thing it will just make assassins who are already behind 10 times more useless, because there is essentially no way for them to accomplish anything before dying, while not really affecting those who are already snowballing. Feast and famine is a very unhealthy playstyle and buffs and nerfs shouldn't further empathise this aspect of assassin gameplay.

No. Nerf the stats in Domination instead. Assassins stats are mostly fine. its the tree that is busted.

5050BSJul 6, 20181 votes

That game is lost Im afraid. The changes Riot needs to do to make the game healthy anymore are so drastic players would run but without them players are running. Its gone.