Now now don't attack me with pitchforks yet. I'm just looking for some feed back is all. My question is, could Riven work off of resources? Whether it be energy or very reasonable mana costs? Now I know people don't like having their mains messed with and I can respect that! Just wondering why or why not would resources work on her and if so what do you suggest. Thank you for your time =]
Mãge7 votesRiven was designed specifically to mimick the fighting style of fighting characters in fighting games. That being said, she's very strong at, well, fighting. You can defeat her by ambushing her with help from teammates or locking her down with some sort of CC (the fighting game equivalent of a power move that locks you down). She also has very low health regen, so poke is extremely effective against her. If you're not confident fighting a Riven or any champion, honestly, the player will probably defeat you, not the champion.
Not Katarina3 votesWell said!
Ultîma3 votesShe also has very low health regen, so poke is extremely effective against her. If you're not confident fighting a Riven or any champion, honestly, the player will probably defeat you, not the champion.
If only she didn't build BT or Hydra (or you know, both) every single game. http://champion.gg/champion/Riven
Riven, while perhaps designed to mimic fighting characters (her Q was designed to imitate Marth's blade dance from Super Smash Bros) does not exist in a fighting game, but a MOBA. Therefore, she needs to abide by the balance mantras of a MOBA. Riven has access to many tools (mobility, CC, shielding, low cooldowns and massive steroids) that are atypical of resourceless champions, and that many mana-based champions don't even have access to. Because of the instantaneous and spammable nature of her skills, and her passive, Riven is not only good at fighting, but also small trades. She has some glaring strengths, and very few weaknesses that are exploitable. Quinn is her greatest counter, but she is seen in only 0.59% of games, whereas Riven is seen in well over 15%. The likelyhood of someone being able to "deal" with Riven is honestly quite low, which is why she's perceived as an oppressively powerful champion. While I like the fighting nature of Riven, I think she could stand to be a little more vulnerable against certain strategies. Right now if she ever gets ahead she can just steam-roll her way through an opponent.
Not Katarina3 votesIt sucks you got downvoted. I actually felt like your post was productive, lol. And I play Riven myself.
I would really like if Riven were more vulnerable against more specific strategies, that weren't only counterpicks. That would allow for some really cool lanes. Not that I think Riven is in need of a nerf but I do agree with you. She's perceived as oppressive and can snowball her lane so that she does not fall off. If she doesn't snowball she doesn't have the impact I'd like, though.
It's hard to deny Riven unless you're denying yourself as well. :[ But in the end it really depends on your team if that is worth or not.
Ultîma2 votesThanks for the response DawnCythe. I try to be as constructive and objective as possible even if I know saying anything against Riven on these boards is met with swift downvotes lol.
I think the greatest offender with Riven is her passive - it allows her to snowball way too hard when she's ahead, and not at all when she's behind. Her damage needs to be distributed more evenly throughout her skills so that her powerspikes aren't so crushing when she finishes an item. I don't recall a champion who really had the same sort of statistical power as Riven`s passive in a skill, or if they had theirs reworked, but it seems to me like its a big factor in her power. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, as I mostly play against Riven rather than controlling her myself.
Not Katarina1 votesI like your thought process! In fact, many champions' passives are the reasons they are not and/or are buffed. For Riven's case, it's really been an underlying strength of hers for a while. I like the idea of distributing damage more to her skills! When I play Riven early-game Q is mainly just a mobility spell that helps me get empowered AA's off. They do the most early-game and are my best chance of snowballing a lane. It would be interesting to shift her power into her other skills but to-do so could be even more beneficial to cdr than it is on her currently. I think the most important shift in power for her would be something that allows her to scale better if and when she can't stomp her lane opponent, and then reducing the power that allows her to do that in the first place. Most Riven players have to stomp their lane or scale into nothing, so I'm sure they hear nerf Riven and think of an overall feast or famine champion getting starved. And nobody wants that.
Señor Karthus5 votesRiven needs to implement all or some of these things:
Yosuke Apperu2 votesI love how you got downvoted lol. Other people don't seem to see a problem with her -_- You and I both do though XD.
The Sword Saint5 votesShe's balanced around being manaless. GIve her mana please so that they give her massive buffs in damage or cooldowns or base stats or something. Please, I beg you.
Yosuke Apperu1 votesShe has one of the highest single target full combo damages in the game. Her aoe damage potential is up there as well lol.
The Sword Saint3 votesWhat's your point? Veigar can 100-0 an enemy mage literally by pressing r from range with a point and click ability. Some champs simply have to do more damage then other champs in some or all situations when played right purely by design, and riven is on that list when it comes to laning phase.
As the numbers stand now, she's balanced. To give mana would be a massive nerf. Therefor, a masive buff somewhere else must compensate to keep the balance. That's how game design and tuning works. Maybe it wouldn't be damage, maybe it would be more range or lower cooldowns or a longer lasting more powerful shield or maybe her auto attack range would increase like the juggernauts and she'd get her sword from her ult as her normal sized sword and just get the ad boost and windslash as an ult, or or or.
The point is she would be made stronger in some other significant way, and yet I can already tell even if she was super op then suddenly it would be ok because 'she has the same resources as everyone else'.
Yosuke Apperu1 votesAn enemy mage.. not an enemy anything :P Give her a buff to her abyssmal hp/5 regen because people always say that's her weakness. It would be okay for her to be super op. Because she could possibly run out of mana while running away, and she wouldn't be able to just spam in lane(she'd actually have to commit to a trade). Also, no she can't have her full size sword because that goes against her lore :P To be honest though I can't wait til everyone gets reworked into juggernauts. It'll be positively silly XD
Not Katarina1 votesAlso, no she can't have her full size sword because that goes against her lore :P
LOL
c'mooon. Gameplay =/= lore. If I have a team that's half Demacian and half Noxian they're not going to start fighting each other while we siege. Let's be reasonable. :P
Yosuke Apperu1 votesWe know how much they care about lore, just look what happened to gangplank XD
Not Katarina1 votesNow all we have to do is diagnose Skarner with terminal cancer until he's hotfixed. :P
Yosuke Apperu1 votesVayne, kalista, and the sated junglers first :p
Not Katarina4 votes
http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lrmleqyVyX1qbr2jco2_r1_250.gif
I always wondered though, what if Riven incorporated flow into her kit? I don't know how it would work, but it could gate one of her abilities. Like her shield. Since she's all "rara windblade rara" and Yasuo gains a shield from flow, it COULD be interesting to see. I have no idea how it'd work though.
Something like her E shield gets higher depends on how much flow she has instead of base AD. If she uses it when the flow is nothing or low the shield is low or nothing but the dash still goes through.
I am really against the idea of gating Riven by a resource, though. I feel like she's in a good spot right now. Just wanted to contribute to your original post instead of rambling mindlessly. :]
StealthWarden3 votesI am not a riven main, but i would like to know why resourceless champions exist in the first place. I understand there has to be a limiting factor involved and you shouldnt just be able to mash the buttons and have all your stuff happen without an end. And even resourceless champions have cool downs to limit them. BUT, everybody has cooldowns....so energy, health spending, and mana cost champions have multiple limiting factors...cooldown champs only have 1, and for those champions to be allowed to be as strong as they are, it seems unreasonable...cost to benefit is just out balance. my opinion, sorry for the off topic'ish comment.
Slightly more on topic, why riven specifically out of all the resource-less champions?
Not Katarina5 votesChampions who are resourceless tend to have to be gated by longer cooldowns than mana users (idk about energy users, don't play many of them). That's not true for all of them; but Riven does build 40% cdr normally so it's not like her cooldowns are low naturally. Her Q is on a 9-12 second cooldown with the normal 3% from masteries? So Riven players will often be sacrificing MR for CDR scaling/flats, meaning she's pretty weak to poke in that regard.
I'm completely biased against Vlad, so i won't say much. I don't like him, lol!
Katarina has 9s cd on her Q or something around that, and her E is 11-15s roughly. W is the only spell on a low cooldown and more often than not it's maxed second and does a small amount of damage. Mainly used for procing Q marks. She doesn't build cdr and instead relies on her passive, Voracity.
Garen is.. full melee, no "dash" necessarily. I don't see him being too irritating. Mana wouldn't force him to skip out of anything he already does, so.
What other resourceless champions am I forgetting? //smh my memory stinks
I'm not sure why they implemented resourceless champions but they really aren't that bad. Riven's early aggression is deniable and Katarina has only losing matchups in lane (<-- this is important). The two snowball hard but are somewhat feast or famine. Katarina moreso than Riven. Riven gets ahead through her early-spikes (1-3 + 6) and/or ganks and Katarina gets ahead through roaming and/or ganks. The two are meh if they are controlled.
I feel like Riven is harder to control when ahead due to how her kit is made. But it is some food for thought. I wonder who thought up resourceless champions. Interesting concept. I like the diversity.
I hope this answered your question!
StealthWarden3 votesChampions who are resourceless tend to have to be gated by longer cooldowns than mana users
yeah man idk..
Riven Q COOLDOWN: 13 / Lux Q COOLDOWN: 15 / 14 / 13 / 12 / 11
Riven W COOLDOWN: 11 / 10 / 9 / 8 / 7 / Lux W COOLDOWN: 14 / 13 / 12 / 11 / 10
Riven E COOLDOWN: 10 / 9 / 8 / 7 / 6 - Lux E COOLDOWN: 10
Riven R COOLDOWN: 110 / 80 / 50 - Lux R COOLDOWN: 80 / 65 / 50
Its hard to say that Riven is "gated" by her cooldowns and thats enough. Plus, why does she have to use cdr blues when 
+ 5% from masteries= max cooldown? and she builds these naturally.
So i ask again...why does she only have 1 power limitation while others have 2 or more.
Not Katarina3 votesYou can't compare Riven to Lux in all fairness. Lux is a mid-lane caster and Riven is a top-lane fighter. Lux is AP, Riven is AD.
If Lux lands her Q, she will also land her E and R with ease. Her Q is also double-root.
The most important factor negating your point, although it is well made - Lux is ranged and Riven is melee. If she were to spam her skills from a safe distance it would be much more upsetting than Riven, who should be paying a price to trade damage and/or cs.
Although I understand where you are coming from, Lux also naturally has CDR items available to her which also give her mana and help her AP damage. And overall, Lux should definitely have limitations on her skills as they are ranged and much more problematic if they are spammable. The same reason why she is immobile is due to her power output and safe distance from which she can bring damage to a fight. Riven has to be in a fight, Lux has to be standing behind her frontline and safely firing her spells. Both of them are in a fine position with the cooldowns and in Lux's case - the mana that keeps her in place. And she got a nice little buff this patch. Lux going OOM if she were to spam skills was definitely something Riot intended to keep as a limit on her kit. :)
Side note to answer your other question:
Riven players use CDR blues flat/scaling because of
A) It helps their earlygame, where they want to be killing their lane opponent B) BC is a situational item and should not be built every game. Don't get me wrong; it's nice, but it's not desirable 24/7. You'll actually find most Riven's do not build Black Cleaver. There is proof of this at: champion.gg/champion/riven, where she also sits at a 51% winrate this patch - you'll be pleasantly surprised to find out Lux sits at 53%! :)
Hope that you understand! Thanks for responding. :]
StealthWarden1 votes1.) Riven mid is a thing.
2.) if riven lands her 3rd q, she also lands her AA and also lands her W and also lands another AA or more. They both have hard CC that guarantee the landing of successive abilities,and im not sure why we are even having this particular micro debate...
3.) being ranged is possibly a factor, however i believe that is a moot point as lux is highly immoble and riven has 4 dashes in her kit.
4.) every champion is unique so comparison is difficult kit wise...but we arent even talking about their damn kits, and i dont why we ever started!!!!!!
TOPIC = 1 Limiting factor "coolddowns" VS multiple limiting factors "cooldowns, mana, energy, charges" and how it could possibly be fair for 1 champion to have less restrictions than the rest of them.
Not Katarina3 votesBecause said champion is balanced with the restrictions they have. If Lux did not use mana she would be impossible to push out of lane and would be nerfed. Riven has been balanced around her energy/manaless kit. She has been nerfed because of it. Just as Lux has been buffed due to her mana-using kit.
If you want to compare a champion that is in any way like Riven but uses mana to Riven herself, I am all ears. But you cannot come to me asking me why a champion like Lux, who is ranged harass and does AoE damage from a huge distance - uses mana and Riven, who has to jump into a middle of a teamfight to get her damage off - doesn't. There is no way Lux would be balanced without restrictions, just as if Riven saw a resource added to her kit she would see buffs.
And she does NOT need those.
As for your 2nd point, if Riven wastes all of her dashes running towards you then she's going to have her E, W and AA's to do damage with. Just punish her for wasting her main source of damage to get to you? Definitely not a moot point. The main point.
Yes, Riven mid is a thing. Elaborate? I don't understand why you added that. S:
how it could possibly be fair for 1 champion to have less restrictions than the rest of them.
I answered that with all the reasonable posts you could dream of having on the boards. Still on topic. :] If you aren't going to understand that this is a poor example and that Riven and Lux's cooldowns both make sense to their specific champion kits, that's fine. But with all the evidence I've supplied to make sure you see the facts of the matter I don't want to sit and just argue, so if that's what you want then I suggest you go somewhere else.
I'm all up for a conversation, though. :)
StealthWarden2 votesyou sir DID NOT READ THE POST!!!!! Please for the love of all things holy, read first post AFTER!
TOPIC = 1 Limiting factor "coolddowns" VS multiple limiting factors "cooldowns, mana, energy, charges" and how it could possibly be fair for 1 champion to have less restrictions than the rest of them.
this is what were discussing... STFU about kits and comparisons!! Why are resourceless champions even a thing?!?!? that is my question. Riven as she sits today, doesnt belong in league...along with all the other cooldown only champions. Diversity, yes we like that...but 0 cost spells should NOT exist next to spells that have a cost!
The Sword Saint4 votesSo basically you're having a hissy fit because you just don't want other champs to have nice things, even if they pay for them. Cool.
Let me try to communicate to you in your own language.
"Why are ranged champions even a thing?!?!? that is my question. Lux as she sits today, doesn't belong in league...along with all the other ranged champions. Diversity, yes we like that...but ranged spells should NOT exist next to spells that are melee!"
This is what you sound like.
StealthWarden1 votes"im an idiot" <--- this is what you sound like
even if they pay for them
What is the cost of casting a spell on a resource-less champion?
champion X casts a spell - resource A is depleted a certain amount and ability goes on cooldown.
resourceless champion y casts a spell - ability goes on cooldown at 0 cost
when there are no associated costs with something you can freely press the buttons in any order at any time and not be punished for missing, mistiming, pressing the wrong button altogether, or even have to be bothered with keeping track of anything except "when i press it will it do stuff"
I dont have a problem with rivens kit, i have a problem with rivens kit being FREE
but you want to tell me thats legit...you can have your opinion, thats fine, but dont be an ass.
The Sword Saint2 votesIt's not complicated. The numbers (base damage, cooldown, range, animation speed, scalings, etc.) of rivens abilities are tuned down to compensate for the fact that she's supposed to be resourceless.
If you want her to have mana, fine give her mana, but don't bitch when she gets tons of buffs to compensate because she's currently balanced around being manaless.
Yosuke Apperu1 votesErm... she has some of the highest ad scaling in the entire game.. plus her defensive shield.. scales off of ad...a fairly long range and highest damage aoe execute in the game..and She gains a decent damage steroid from that as well. Her cool downs aren't that high.. especially because q cool down starts after it's first use.. Her shield is on a six second cd at max rank and with 40% cdr is close to 4. Also her ulti has a 50 second cool down.. down to 30 if you have 40% cdr. (yes 40% cdr is assumed. Because now it's easier than ever for riven to get and she has virtually no reason not to unless she wants other boots). The only thing that actually gimps her at all is that she is melee. But you don't see darius as manaless or many other top laners.
Not Katarina1 votesBut you don't see darius as manaless or many other top laners.
? One of her biggest counters, also manaless. Other manaless toplaners include but are not limited to:
Also, try starting cloth + 5 or bringing a top-lane tank into lane against her. She won't have a good time. If she can't kill you in lane and milk that same strat over and over she won't be scaling well at all. It's the other side of the spectrum for a feast/famine champion. To starve.
Yosuke Apperu1 votesThat's good and all to know, and darius destroys her hard! Anyways that's not what I was discussing but thanks for your input =]
Not Katarina1 votesNo problem. :) And yeah, he's not a fun lane to be against, lol!
Not Katarina3 votesHaha, thank you so much for understanding! I'm trying to simply explain it to him with raw facts and I just feel like he won't accept anything I tell him. S: Thought I was the only one.
I love your analogy by the way! Ranged v Melee is just like Mana v Resourceless. Doesn't mean one is better than the other.
Not Katarina3 votesIt seems you are the one who didn't actually read my post. I didn't talk about Lux's skills in comparison to Riven. But if you want the answer to your original question,
how it could possibly be fair for 1 champion to have less restrictions than the rest of them.
Then you're going to have to understand it lies in the champion's kit. And that it will be brought up during the conversation. So it is definitely a part of the conversation. The biggest part of the conversation, in fact. Resourceless champions are simply a type of diversity, like energy-users or health-using champions. :)
Sadly I thought you were willing to be shown the facts and accept them, but all you did was complain about "kit this and kit that", not understanding that the reasoning behind a champion being mana-using / resourceless / energy-using lies in their kit. Funnily enough you were the one to come to me, comparing the cooldowns in their kit without any source of context. And when I proved you wrong, then you went all "stfu my opinion is best grill" so this'll probably be the last of it. Hope you actually read my posts from earlier and perhaps learn something instead of mindlessly complaining that one champion uses this and the other champion uses that. Then you'll learn to appreciate all types of champions, including resourceless ones right next to mana-users. :)
StealthWarden1 votesso youre telling me that riven pays for her free kit, by having "reduced power" in said kit?
Not Katarina3 votesCompared to what you would be facing if you gave Riven a resource, 100% yes.
StealthWarden2 votesSo in order to keep riven "in check" the only viable option is to make everything she does free? im sorry i cant go along with that. And if you are going to say that if we give her a resource that we "have" to increase her power, i cant go along with that way of thinking either. I think her kit is too strong to be free, and plenty strong to have a cost.
i dont appreciate any of your previous condescension, and have not enjoyed in least in speaking with anyone on this board. ive spent a ton of money on this game and honestly because of the people that this game attracts i hope it dies along with my investment. have a good day sir.
Not Katarina2 votesIf only you had a reasonable argument instead of just telling me to stfu I'd have enjoyed our conversation a bit more. Hopefully you'll reread my previous posts and actually finish them. Then resourceless champions can exist next to mana-users happily in your eyes. And if they don't? You're just one in a million.
P.S, You can enjoy a conversation with someone who doesn't share the same opinion as you, and it's not condescending. It's just appreciating what everyone has to say, which you clearly have no idea how to do.
Have a good day though! :) Hope it gets better. You seemed to have been in a bad mood and that really stinks.
The Sword Saint2 votesListen, this is the way balance works. Unless you are trying to nerf or buff a champion, when you add something you have to take away something equal, and when you take away something you have to add something equal.
When designing riven, they added resourcelessness and took away numbers from her kit.
Your personal feelings aside, the statistics show that riven is currently roughly balanced. To massively nerf her by adding mana would require that you massively buff her as well in other ways or she'd become trash tier.
Yosuke Apperu1 votesmfw katarina throws a q in a teamfight.. that champion dies.. what cooldowns?
Not Katarina1 votesSo you won a teamfight 4v5? :P If Katarina kills you with only contributing a Q to a teamfight then that's a big deal on it's own. That's why I said Katarina is not a champion to build CDR and relies on her passive. :] In the laning phase she has cooldowns similar and/or higher to any other champion and actually loses the laning phase very hard. She makes up for this by having very great teamfight potential if you can jump into the middle of a team or flank to the backline and nobody notices and/or cc's her.
To that I say, tanks should be on top of their carries, not so far in front of them that nothing can protect them. If Katarina gets her resets that is a successful all-in for her and she should not be punished for it. If she doesn't get her resets, she dies. That's a pretty nice punishment for failing an all-in. And it is easy to prevent a successful all-in with point + click cc and/or even skillshots. Remember, Katarina has to dive headfirst into your team to output damage. If that goes unnoticed then I don't know how anything else doesn't.
Shénzhì3 votesMy question is, could Riven work off of resources?
Yes. Something new, too, and it's a fucking amazing idea for burst fighters.
#[Resource: Exertion] Contribute and criticize but please do not be a dick.
The real problem with Riven is her kit but this new resource idea could solve so many problems.
Yosuke Apperu2 votesWill check it out :)
O Fallen Scholar2 votesMmmm.
nah. Doesn't work that way.
TyroneWatermelon2 votesRiven mains
Yosuke Apperu2 votesRiven mains also probably downvoted you XD
insaiyanbacca1 voteswell i dont play riven or even own her but ive played against her a bit and here's my thought, she could function off of mana if needed energy probably wouldnt work unless she had a larger energy pool then normal imo, but the problem with giving her mana would be she has the option to buy items like for example sheen and have it be slightly more efficient to build granted she wont use the ap but that was just an example, so honestly i think adding a limiting resource could kinda screw riven over or it could just make her stronger but granted this is all in theory from looking at her kit and playing against it enough
Not Katarina2 votesYou should try her sometime. She's pretty fun. :D
insaiyanbacca3 votesyeah just tried her she is actually really fun
Not Katarina1 votesThat's great!
