Picture proof marksman do to much damage all on their own.

Paroe·Aug 26, 2017·5 votes·1,368 views

These numbers were all obtained over 5 seconds. Annie: 3119 http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k109/paroeAQW/Annie%20proof%202_zpsrokygldn.png

Caitlyn: 4051 http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k109/paroeAQW/Caitlyn%20proof%202_zpsjkd92gvd.png?t=1503639795

Graves: 3206 http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k109/paroeAQW/graves%20proof%201_zpsddlstmwv.png?t=1503639794

Kindred: 3948 http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k109/paroeAQW/Kindred%20proof%201_zpscs5hh8nn.png?t=1503639794

Ya think, maybe, JUST MAYBE, its marksman themselves who are broken and not ?

33 Comments

ModKnightsKemplarAug 26, 20175 votes

5 seconds is a pretty long time in game, frankly. I would fully expect a balanced adc to outdamage annie with a full 5 seconds of autos.

ParoeAug 26, 20172 votes

{quoted}

5 seconds is a pretty long time in game, frankly. I would fully expect a balanced adc to outdamage annie with a full 5 seconds of autos.

Why? 5 seconds is enough for a mage with 3-4 second cooldowns to drop two rotations. An average team fight is actually 10~20 seconds depending on the stage of the game.

I know DoTs are 5 seconds in this game, but generally speaking "DPS" should never OUT BURST in such a small time frame.

ModKnightsKemplarAug 26, 20172 votes

Burst should outdo them in one rotation, for sure. I don't agree that they should out damage an adc with two rotations.

ModWulf HelhammerAug 26, 20174 votes

Not to mention he gave all the ADCs builds they don't use. Caitlyn's is the one that even comes close, but still is wrong.

ParoeAug 26, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Not to mention he gave all the ADCs builds they don't use. Caitlyn's is the one that even comes close, but still is wrong.

Build doesnt really matter at this point. It was my personal 40%CDR 100% crit build up against the 1000AP build in damage. 5 seconds is enough time for most mages to get one or two rotations; you would expect TWO bursts to out damage a marksman with 100% crit, 40% CDR, and 315AD wouldnt you? I would. Because marksmen should be out damaging burst mages in periods of 10 seconds and higher, not 5.

ModWulf HelhammerAug 26, 20174 votes

You are aware of the term "late game carry" right?

You have all the ADCs full late game builds (that no one would actually build because in real play are ineffective, but in a vacuum test chamber, give the most flat damage), and then expect them to not have a lot of damage?

ParoeAug 26, 20174 votes

{quoted}

You are aware of the term "late game carry" right?

You have all the ADCs full late game builds (that no one would actually build because in real play are ineffective, but in a vacuum test chamber, give the most flat damage), and then expect them to not have a lot of damage?

Hah. You realize that "late game carry" is a term that doesnt mean a thing when games last 25 minutes? You want late game? That annie build? A fully stacked Rod of ages, seraphs embrace, AND mejais. THAT is late game. You will NEVER get that in a 25 minute game. Not even a thirty minute game.

You want a different build? item 3031 item 3087 item 3006 item 3165 item 3157 item 3020

You want me to test with "real items"? Give me a set of three items (excluding boots) and ill bloody test it for you. My point WILL remain; Marksman do WAY to much damage and should NEVER do the same amount of damage a SIX AP ITEM BURST MAGE does except over long periods of time. (Long in this case being 10~15+ seconds)

ModWulf HelhammerAug 26, 20171 votes

Infinity edge, Runnans, RFC

Morello, Void Staff, Liandry's

ParoeAug 26, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Infinity edge, Runnans, RFC

Morello, Void Staff, Liandry's

Aight. I went with the current annie first three items on champion.gg instead of the items very clearly tailored for your point. when testing like this try to avoid DoTs that are %HP because it skews everything towards whatever does %HP. Hell try to avoid DoTs in general... Im only using annie because shes spammy and i can get my seraphs stacked fast.

Lucian: 1636 http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k109/paroeAQW/Lucian%20proof%201_zps8qomklio.png?t=1503643715

http://champion.gg/champion/Annie/Middle Annie: 1536 http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k109/paroeAQW/Annie%20proof%203_zpsuzh5keql.png?t=1503643717

That 100 damage difference proves.... At that point in the game theyre similar in terms of damage. Its a good benchmark to know actually.

For reference, this is why we dont use %HP.

Kogmaw blade of the ruined king on-hit (without W!): 6674 damage http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k109/paroeAQW/Kogmaw%20proof%201%20tailored_zpsvkae6giy.png?t=1503644515

Kogmaw the same as everyone else: 4778 http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k109/paroeAQW/Kogmaw%20proof%202%20tailored_zpskn5s0k9u.png?t=1503644518

TwinkieProAug 26, 20171 votes

To be fair, that last one with %HP is entirely unfair simply on the basis that the dummies have a shitton of health and incorrectly show actual damage.

Automated RivenAug 31, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Build doesnt really matter at this point. It was my personal 40%CDR 100% crit build up against the 1000AP build in damage. 5 seconds is enough time for most mages to get one or two rotations; you would expect TWO bursts to out damage a marksman with 100% crit, 40% CDR, and 315AD wouldnt you? I would. Because marksmen should be out damaging burst mages in periods of 10 seconds and higher, not 5.

most adc's get at most 80% crit. which reduces damage delt by like 35% so it does matter.

ParoeAug 31, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=31nFzQHx,comment-id=0001000100000001,timestamp=2017-08-31T00:54:10.984+0000)

most adc's get at most 80% crit. which reduces damage delt by like 35% so it does matter.

Considering how crit works in this game, its actually not a huge damage loss. 50% isnt actually 50%; its more 75%.

ExecutionerAug 26, 20174 votes

I mean of course your going to lose in 5 seconds to an ADC as annie. However, what is annie? Burst, what is Caitlyn? DPS.

Of course Caitlyn is going to do more damage in 5 seconds than annie. If you didn't see then I dont know what to tell you.

Also Marksman have always been doing more Damage over time than any other class, what the fucking do you expect?

Test how much annie and caitlyn do in 2 seconds. Who wins? Annie 100% of the time.

The further you go, the more damage a marksman will do.

Also this isn't picture proof, this should of been common sense.

ParoeAug 26, 20173 votes

{quoted}

I mean of course your going to lose in 5 seconds to an ADC as annie. However, what is annie? Burst, what is Caitlyn? DPS.

Of course Caitlyn is going to do more damage in 5 seconds than annie. If you didn't see then I dont know what to tell you.

Also Marksman have always been doing more Damage over time than any other class, what the fucking do you expect?

Test how much annie and caitlyn do in 2 seconds. Who wins? Annie 100% of the time.

The further you go, the more damage a marksman will do.

Also this isn't picture proof, this should of been common sense.

"over time" is not 5 seconds. 5 seconds is a fast fight window and about the time it takes for a regular mage (who ISNT an assassin) to unload their entire rotation and then one or two more abilities depending on their cooldowns. In this case, for testing, Annie gets to RWQQ in five seconds due to her cast animations and cool downs.

RWQ is the "real burst" youre looking for. RWQQ is what will usually happen in any short fight.

ExecutionerAug 26, 20172 votes

No shit its a fast fight, the problem is you taking a something that the marksman usually doesn't just sit still and fully unload in 5 seconds. Most of the time something is coming after them, which results in them having to kite. That damage is usually centered on the tank or whatever is coming after them. Now where is annies damage? Depends on how many people she gets within her her and W. She has the potential in a team fight unload on 2 or 3 people if they clump. Put 3 dummies together and check how much burst you do compared to the marksman attacking three dummies. How long does it take for the marksman to match that damage?

ParoeAug 26, 20173 votes

{quoted}

No shit its a fast fight, the problem is you taking a something that the marksman usually doesn't just sit still and fully unload in 5 seconds. Most of the time something is coming after them, which results in them having to kite. That damage is usually centered on the tank or whatever is coming after them. Now where is annies damage? Depends on how many people she gets within her her and W. She has the potential in a team fight unload on 2 or 3 people if they clump. Put 3 dummies together and check how much burst you do compared to the marksman attacking three dummies. How long does it take for the marksman to match that damage?

That isnt what im testing and obfuscates the point; A MARKSMAN DOES THE SAME DAMAGE WITH A COOKIE CUTTER BUILD AS A 6 ITEM FULLY STACKED BURST MAGE. 5 seconds isnt a lot of a time, its about a rotation+1 depending on cooldowns. If marksman were balanced, they wouldnt be matching mages until 10~15 seconds. Marksman doing sustained burst is the problem, and the pictures ive posted prove that they do a LOT more than they should be.

{quoted}

Burst should outdo them in one rotation, for sure. I don't agree that they should out damage an adc with two rotations.

Its a rotation+1 depending on cooldowns and cast animations. Not really two rotations... thats my bad.

Mig89Aug 30, 20172 votes

It makes a difference when Annie's two second combo deletes a squishy and caits takes 3/4 their hp because in a 5 second fight you'd have to realize the adc is not going to do that much damage realistically to one squishy unless the other squishy is bad or the tanks aren't playing right. This type of comparison serves no valid point

ParoeAug 30, 20171 votes

{quoted}

It makes a difference when Annie's two second combo deletes a squishy and caits takes 3/4 their hp because in a 5 second fight you'd have to realize the adc is not going to do that much damage realistically to one squishy unless the other squishy is bad or the tanks aren't playing right. This type of comparison serves no valid point

It has a very valid point. A sub standard marksman build is doing MORE than an annie with 1000AP, a fully stacked seraphs, and a fully stacked mejais.

Marksman do WAY to much damage for being "the dps class" - They not only match a 6 offensive item dedicated burst mage, but they EXCEED that damage.
The fact that this is on training dummies doesnt particularly matter for the sake of argument, because im not arguing functionality. Im arguing the sheer damage marksman do with ONLY right clicks is WAY to high.

PacothegintAug 26, 20173 votes

Looks to be in line with where marksmen are supposed to be

ParoeAug 26, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Looks to be in line with where marksmen are supposed to be

Out bursting a 1000AP Annie. Yup, thats exactly where marksman are supposed to be. :P

Truly, they are masters of the "sustained burst right click 360 noscope infinity dunkshot alpha supreme" technique.

PacothegintAug 26, 20174 votes

Yes, put any adc up against a 1000AP annie when she has ult and they are dead.

ParoeAug 26, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Yes, put any adc up against a 1000AP annie when she has ult and they are dead.

While true thats not the point here. The point is that marksmen not only matched annies damage in five seconds, but exceeded it easily. That is NOT okay considering the time frame is so damn short.

PacothegintAug 26, 20172 votes

The time frame for an adc's life being destroyed is less than 5 seconds. So that is very much the point of an adc. Take them out fast or they will rip through your team faster than a burst mage.

ParoeAug 26, 20173 votes

{quoted}

The time frame for an adc's life being destroyed is less than 5 seconds. So that is very much the point of an adc. Take them out fast or they will rip through your team faster than a burst mage.

They shouldnt do, without sacrificing anything, the same damage in such a short window is the thing. Take a closer look at the annie build im comparing to; it is a true 6 item build with as much AP as possible (without the AP pot) and no boots. Its STILL being out damaged. Sustained burst is simply not okay. In ANY form.

PhDs NutsAug 30, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Out bursting a 1000AP Annie. Yup, thats exactly where marksman are supposed to be. :P

Truly, they are masters of the "sustained burst right click 360 noscope infinity dunkshot alpha supreme" technique.

5 seconds isn't burst.

ParoeAug 30, 20171 votes

{quoted}

5 seconds isn't burst.

Yeah... It can be. Burst is the amount of damage you can do in a short time frame. In this case, its RQWQ; A rotation+1.

ParoeAug 27, 20171 votes

Bumping because this is still a relevant topic.

ParoeAug 29, 20171 votes

Bamp

ParoeAug 30, 20171 votes

bump

DrCyanideAug 30, 20171 votes

Pro Tip: Use ALT+PrtScn to take a screenshot of only the current window instead of your entire screen.

ParoeAug 30, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Pro Tip: Use ALT+PrtScn to take a screenshot of only the current window instead of your entire screen.

It gave me black screens, only windowed bordered actually worked properly. Not like it really matters. All you get is the infinity screen and my task bar.

DrCyanideAug 30, 20171 votes

I guess I use Windowed Borderless at home (makes having two monitors and alt+tabbing easier). Regardless, the hotkey combo should have worked for Windowed Bordered too...

ParoeAug 30, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I guess I use Windowed Borderless at home (makes having two monitors and alt+tabbing easier). Regardless, the hotkey combo should have worked for Windowed Bordered too...

Screenshots are rather finicky for me. Im using an old AMD graphics card (over 5 years old... going on 6) and a lot of options like screenshots and even some sound options dont work unless i do specific things. Like i cant access my sound mixer via right click unless i have the AMD audio mixer open.