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Hold up, Riot. You better have a Black Cleaver replacement.

Shinjusuke··13 votes·2,113 views

For those who haven't seen what Riot is planning on doing to Black Cleaver, they're making it into a heavily Fighter-focused item, giving it more hp, less damage, and a phage passive. http://www.surrenderat20.net/2015/04/47-pbe-update.html

And, y'know, that's fine. I'm sure many fighter champions are desperate for an item with Phage's effect that isn't Trinity Force.

But I swear to god, whoever's call it was to change one of the only good items for AD Casters, who already have arguably the lamest itemization in the game needs to get in here and tell us another item will be coming out that fills the exact same role that current Black Cleaver does. As in right friggin' now.

How about you guys decide "Meh, Zhonyas isn't really a mage item, it's more for Tanks" and give it 30 AP and 100 armor too. I mean while you're in the mood to significantly alter a key item for an entire class, why not do it to one of the more popular roles too?

Because if there isn't a damage-focused Pen/AD/CDR item coming to replace Black Cleaver, and I mean in the same patch, that's all you're doing, and that needs to not happen. AD Casters have ONE brutalizer item outside of the jungle item now, and it gives crit chance and attack speed (Youmous), which should not be AD Caster stats.

I get it, you like Tanks. You hate Assassins. Lee Sin, Vi, and Rek'Sai will be buffed. So from your perspective this seems all good, because these are Riot's favorite things.

But if you're forcibly turning an AD Caster item into a Fighter item, then I swear to God you better not whine about bullshit like Bruiser Kha'Zix as you did last season, because you are forcing AD Caster players to become Fighters with this kind of shortsighted change. Just making you guys aware since long-term consequences have historically not been Riot's strong point when it comes to balancing changes.

This will make the Fighters who are already strong, stronger and the AD Casters weaker. It's going to force AD Casters to end up more like Fighters and you guys are going to be dumbfounded about why all the sudden former-assassins are now building like Bruisers, and then you're going to nerf the shit out of those supposed-to-be-caster champions into uselessness because that's how Riot handles the consequences of their own systematic changes: Punish the champions who are forced to be something outside their design vision to stay viable and end up overpowered.

Hope all you Zed and Talon players enjoy living through what Kha'zix players had to. Good luck.

54 Comments

DisasterSola11 votes

Ahem Live: Cost: 3000 +200 health +50 attack damage +10% cooldown reduction Unique: +10 armor penetration Passive Dealing physical damage to an enemy champion reduces their armor by 5% (25%) for 4 seconds. This effect stacks up to 5 times.

PBE: Cost: 300 +400 Health +40 Attack Damage +20% Cooldown Reduction Passive: Dealing physical damage to an enemy champion Cleaves them, reducing their Armor by 5% for 6 seconds (stacks up to 6 times, up to 30%). Passive - Rage: Dealing physical damage grants 20 movement speed for 2 seconds. Assists on Cleaved enemy champions or kills on any unit grant 80 movement speed for 4 seconds instead. This movement speed is halved for ranged champions.

Its a buff. its a HUGE buff, actually. Its literally -10 damage and -10A-pen in exchange for +200HP, rage, 5% more A-pen (For 30% total), and 2 more seconds on armor shred. I think the logic behind the changes is that black cleaver has always been more geared toward defense; they wanted to differentiate cleaver from youmuus. And now, you can get BOTH youmuus AND the cleaver.

If they increase its gold cost to, say, 3400, then you can call it a nerf.

Phife1 votes

This ^

I dont get why OP is getting so worked up about a buff to melee champions that can finally build black cleaver....

Dies to Wolves1 votes

{quoted}

Ahem Live: Cost: 3000 +200 health +50 attack damage +10% cooldown reduction Unique: +10 armor penetration Passive Dealing physical damage to an enemy champion reduces their armor by 5% (25%) for 4 seconds. This effect stacks up to 5 times.

PBE: Cost: 300 +400 Health +40 Attack Damage +20% Cooldown Reduction Passive: Dealing physical damage to an enemy champion Cleaves them, reducing their Armor by 5% for 6 seconds (stacks up to 6 times, up to 30%). Passive - Rage: Dealing physical damage grants 20 movement speed for 2 seconds. Assists on Cleaved enemy champions or kills on any unit grant 80 movement speed for 4 seconds instead. This movement speed is halved for ranged champions.

Its a buff. its a HUGE buff, actually. Its literally -10 damage and -10A-pen in exchange for +200HP, rage, 5% more A-pen (For 30% total), and 2 more seconds on armor shred. I think the logic behind the changes is that black cleaver has always been more geared toward defense; they wanted to differentiate cleaver from youmuus. And now, you can get BOTH youmuus AND the cleaver.

If they increase its gold cost to, say, 3400, then you can call it a nerf.

I'm pretty sure the OP is trying to say that it's a nerf to assassins but a buff to fighters, he should be more specific rather than saying ad casters (since both fighters and assassins include AD casters)

it's kind of a nerf to assassins indeed though. The extra 10 ad and flat armor pen is great, and while the 5% extra percentage pen is nice, it has to be stacked with one extra hit (and considering their usual targets and their usual builds + runes, I'm not sure if 5% pen is going to necessarily be better than 10 flat). The health certainly is nice, but an assassin prefers the extra damage, and while sure, Rage is also helpful, ideally an assassin wants to kill a target and get out - not stick to it; that's bruiser territory.

BUT the extra 10% cdr is delicious

edit: I just looked at it on the PBE (wasn't even aware of the change before reading this post), and there's also the whole instead of buying a brutalizer you buy a phage, which is bleh

EvilRabbitt3 votes

Not to nitpick a typo, but can't resist. I'd buy this over boots. Cost:300

Reikken3 votes

{quoted}

Its a buff. its a HUGE buff, actually. Its literally -10 damage and -10A-pen in exchange for +200HP, rage, 5% more A-pen (For 30% total), and 2 more seconds on armor shred.

It's a buff, yes. For tanky dps. It's a nerf for assassins. less penetration and less damage for more health and more movement speed

DisasterSola5 votes

{quoted}

It's a buff, yes. For tanky dps. It's a nerf for assassins. less penetration and less damage for more health and more movement speed

Did you think that maybe riot doesnt want assassins to be able to build tanky? In my head, its extremely clear with these changes that black cleaver is meant to be a defensive team fight item rather than the "ima kill u nao" powerspike.

Reikken3 votes

That's exactly what this topic is saying. This item change is removing an assassin item and replacing it with a fighter item. and AD caster assassins already have very few items to choose from. This only makes it worse.

DisasterSola5 votes

{quoted}

That's exactly what this topic is saying. This item change is removing an assassin item and replacing it with a fighter item. and AD caster assassins already have very few items to choose from. This only makes it worse.

The cleaver was never intended to BE an assassin item though. Its stats - largely defensive - indicate that it was always meant to be a fighter item. Something for things like riven, garen, lee, and renekton.

Its MUCH better for those champions now - champions it was intended for - while at the same time being less attractive to assassins, a caste who just adopted it because it had higher AD than youmuus.

Angry Monster1 votes

i posted this directly to the OP already, but want to share and see what you think. assassins still have ghost blade and thematically its supposed to be the one for assassins.

Super pen builds is what took tanks out of the game ins season 3.

Reikken3 votes

largely defensive? It has a whopping 200 hp. That's it. That's like 16% of its cost. There was all kinds of fanfare at and before its release as Pantheon and Talon finally getting the itemization they'd been needing forever. It was most definitely made for AD caster assassins.

DisasterSola2 votes

{quoted}

largely defensive? It has a whopping 200 hp. That's it. That's like 16% of its cost. There was all kinds of fanfare at and before its release as Pantheon and Talon finally getting the itemization they'd been needing forever. It was most definitely made for AD caster assassins.

Largely defensive: 200HP 10%CDR a passive that rewards staying in the fight.

Pantheon is also a fighter; Not an AD caster. AD casters would be champions like lucian, corki, and varus. Black cleaver is also meh on talon.... ... And actually, the buffed cleaver will benefit him MORE. Talon has always been about commitment.

Speaking of commitment, it seems like the cleaver has always been about commitment over non-commitment. that being said, youmuus is a much more powerful tool for an assassin.

BeatzBoyFTW1 votes

I thought nerfing assassin champions has always been a good idea?

Gtfo Zed

Chaotic Reks2 votes

Darius

Angry Monster3 votes

What..... Most assassins are getting ghost blade instead of BC.

Reikken1 votes

Yeah. the autoattack based assassins. ghostblade buffs autos. cleaver buffs spells.

Angry Monster3 votes

Um false? Nice try though. Both have CDR and both have pen that works on ALL AR. Neither have a direct effect on spell in any shape or way that also does not work for autos.

Reikken1 votes

ghostblade has 30 AD and buffs attack speed and movement speed and crit cleaver has 50 AD and more armor pen

Claim it's false all you want. AS/crit/MS are for autoattacks. Spells don't benefit from that. But they DO benefit from AD and armor pen.

DisasterSola3 votes

{quoted}

ghostblade has 30 AD and buffs attack speed and movement speed and crit cleaver has 50 AD and more armor pen

Claim it's false all you want. AS/crit/MS are for autoattacks. Spells don't benefit from that. But they DO benefit from AD and armor pen.

... So what youre saying is that assassins shouldnt have to be in the battle long enough to be reacted to?! Oh my god! Call the newspapers! This is ground br- Oh. Wait. Wait a minute here.

assassins instagibbing people is what made them toxic to begin with Sounds like you just want assassins to be OP again. Not a sentiment i share.

With these changes, YGB and BC both have very different niches. BC is for longer engagements YGB is for Burst skirmishes.

Live BC totally negates the usefulness of YGB - theyre operating in the same space. PBE BC gives YGB a clear niche - assassins.

Reikken1 votes

Yes, that's what an assassin is. You get in and kill as fast as possible. Bruisers are the ones that kill over an extended period of time.

Akali Leblanc Ahri etc you're gonna hate on poor Talon just because he uses daggers instead of magic wands? please

Angry Monster1 votes

But they DO benefit from AD and armor pen.

same for autos

Phife4 votes

Just a second here. Who builds black cleaver? (as it currently is)

Edit: cause op seems salty as fuck. What AD caster builds black cleaver? not talon, not zed, not riven... so who? Black cleaver is awful on assassins, you need to build up the % pen shred by attacking someone. Any assassin who burst combos a champion doesn't have time to build up those stacks on everyone... IMO This item is theoretically made for tanks who sit in the fight and shred Armor but no one builds it because the cost efficiency and the ridiculous recipe cost!

Deep Terror Nami2 votes

Isn't it good on Urgot? I furgot.

Phife1 votes

I dont think its good on anyone for how much its currently worth. Oh and by the way no one wants to save up 1200+ gold for recipe...

Angry Monster1 votes

he is a bruiser.

Hard4Hamsters1 votes

He WILL get nerfed after this hits live. It gives him absolutely everything he needs. MORE health, MORE Armor shred, MORE CDR, AND a smoother build path. This is the item that Urgot has always wanted. The current Cleaver is strong on the Crabgod and this is going to make him severely OP.

Arcade Andrew1 votes

I never understood why people thought urgot was the shittiest champion, I played him ADC once and dominated by myself but only lost because my team decided "hes an urgot hes a troll we give up lets fucking feed"

Hard4Hamsters1 votes

He was in a decent spot before they gave him the scaling on his W. Once that hit live, he became strong. This might push him over the top. And I think he will get nerfed.

Arcade Andrew2 votes

MissFortune Lucian or pretty much any AD champion that has an AOE ult/ ability that can do physical damage from the back lines over time (IE miss fortunes ult hits them several times which procs the black cleaver passive to full charge if they stay in the entire ult)

Phife2 votes

If you're even playing MF you probably already lost no matter what you build. And you dont build it on lucian because he scales better with Flat ad and Flat penetration.

Also if you go the brutalizer route on lucian you're probably going to go into a youumuus because of the attack speed / MS active for your ult. and general utility.

SpongebobIsLife3 votes

why hate on the mf? shes hella strong...so underrated..

Arcade Andrew1 votes

the mf hate is real

Zarxis3 votes

I share OP's sentiments; the new Black Cleaver will be less effective on many AD casters, primarily assassins. I hope that Riot will introduce a "baby" Essence Reaver soon; that might soften the blow for mana-based AD caster-assassins, like Talon and [lane] Kha'Zix. However, that wouldn't fill the void that Black Cleaver filled for those champions: it was a fair item for both offense and defense. Last Whisper only provides one of those two aspects. It is true that Garen and Darius will both greatly benefit from the change (helping them is justified). However, some champions (ex: Vi and Riven) don't need any help, and the AD casters that are currently not good will be made worse.

This reminds me of when we lost Atma's Impaler, which I considered almost essential on Garen and core on pre-rework Sion.

Angry Monster2 votes

you have ghost blade and LW. YOu do not need even more pend beyond those 2.

Their is a reason why true tanks fell off in season 3.

Zarxis1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kaosu Desu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2xvHgFIn,comment-id=00020002,timestamp=2015-04-08T06:54:30.718+0000)

you have ghost blade and LW. YOu do not need even more pend beyond those 2.

Their is a reason why true tanks fell off in season 3.

I believe that reason is the preseason 3 patch in which Riot changed % penetration before flat penetration.

AD assassins/casters often need as much penetration as is possible because not all of them are particularly good with Blade of the Ruined King (% health damage on autoattacks, the "best" way for AD champions to bust tanks). Having Black Cleaver lose some AD and flat penetration will hit them hard.

excodar3 votes

{quoted}

Hope all you Zed and Talon players enjoy living through what Kha'zix players had to. Good luck.

I always built ghostblade and IE on talon. I like critting for 1.2k.

Divewing1 votes

We get more arm-pen now, more cdr (so can replace any cdr runes), the arm shred lasts longer, and we get more health + phage passive to boot? All for 10AD?

Talon : FUCKIN' WORRRRRRRRRRRRRTH

Spikeman712 votes

The first sentence of the title.

You're doing it wrong.

Hold up*

Shinjusuke1 votes

Succumbed to the salt. Good call

Vicarious1172 votes

This is a huge buff for assassins too ya know.... I mean most assassins are building ghostblade atm anyway cause of the armor pen and movement speed boost. This new Cleaver gives them that speed boost and the ability to get to almost LW levels of armor pen while also giving as much AD as LW and 400 health!

I mean come on, you rarely see assassins building the current cleaver over ghostblade anyway, and once you have it you don't need cleaver as much as you do one of the other assassin favorites. So yes, this is a buff for even assassins.

I find it incredible how no matter what Riot does SOMEONE will cry and complain about it, even something that is obviously a huge buff for anyone who would build cleaver over ghostblade if it could compare....

DisasterSola2 votes

{quoted}

This is a huge buff for assassins too ya know.... I mean most assassins are building ghostblade atm anyway cause of the armor pen and movement speed boost. This new Cleaver gives them that speed boost and the ability to get to almost LW levels of armor pen while also giving as much AD as LW and 400 health!

I mean come on, you rarely see assassins building the current cleaver over ghostblade anyway, and once you have it you don't need cleaver as much as you do one of the other assassin favorites. So yes, this is a buff for even assassins.

I find it incredible how no matter what Riot does SOMEONE will cry and complain about it, even something that is obviously a huge buff for anyone who would build cleaver over ghostblade if it could compare....

Especially considering that the new cleaver literally has MORE useful stats for the same price.

GundayMonday2 votes

I am so excited for WuSTRONG with this. MonkeyKing MonkeyKing MonkeyKing MonkeyKing MonkeyKing MonkeyKing MonkeyKing

goldensilver091 votes

Quinn & MonkeyKing are gonna be happy about this one.

TheDevice1 votes

I really don't get what this guy is raging about lol. It's clearly a buff. 20% cdr!?!?

But I suppose what he's saying is that .. uhhhh.. since it is a buff then other ad casters will get nerfed? No clue. Like, errr. I mean idk... Zed already needs a nerf lol. Fk it idc I'll say it. All the fanboys will rage and cry and i'll bottle the tears and stack em in the basement. So zed nerfs needed already. Riven doesn't really buy the damn thing. The champs I can see getting some real use out of this is Darius Aatrox Sion ... So in my super bias opinion I'm totally for it.

Beoridas1 votes

personally, i never realized how it would balance the game out. It would create a big benefit for the game. bruisers would do what they need without sacrificing a slot for a triforce (unless they want it) but most champs who uses tri usually dont get a BC. and AD assassins wont go crap tons on tanks and bruisers just because.

Venowolf1 votes

AD Caster item can be the Essence Reaver put a new build path:

Brutalizer and Mini Reaver and its ready.

Saianna1 votes

Welp i'd love if Riot implemented some BC for mages too, because wits end doesn't really work

Yandere Carry1 votes

and mr shred item would be cool

Stacona1 votes

They aren't removing the stats or the passive - only stat removed is flat armour pen; there is a riot post talking about the changes to black cleaver - but ad bruiser are going to get SUPER powerful in 5.8 with randuins and black cleaver buffs

AkabaneKun1 votes

Just give item 3184 to all modes.

Yandere Carry1 votes

it still has CDR and %armor shred.

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