graves and malz jungle clear time is retarded

Rozair·Jul 10, 2016·3 votes·1,186 views

they win games simply because they can clear the jungle faster than the other jungle and gank more while still remaining at full health

21 Comments

48983507DEL1Jul 10, 20161 votes

...well yea that's their niche. If they have better clears, they have other weaknesses to compensate, like Malz's lack of mobility and Grave's lack of hard CC.

RozairJul 10, 20161 votes

wow lack of mobiliy and a a free black shield and ali ult for a passive. OH and graves doesnt have cc Shyvana lol really dude. they dont lack in any area as much as other champs

48983507DEL1Jul 10, 20162 votes

It's not free, it's a part of his kit. That's like Alistar gets free healing, or Shyvana gets a free movement speed buff.

And it's true, Graves doesn't have any hard CC, meaning his ganks are completely reliant on his teammates locking the enemy down. He's basically just a ranged Shyvana. They don't offer much utility to the team, just damage. When picked into the right team, they can work really well, but if the rest of their team lacks CC then they're gonna suffer.

RozairJul 12, 20161 votes

i think you have completely forgotten about the black screen you get when graves lands smokescreen and slows you. no counterplay to this other than get out

48983507DEL1Jul 13, 20161 votes

? yea you walk out of it. That's pretty good counterplay.

Scuttle LoverJul 11, 20162 votes

Graves shouldn't have better clears than junglers such as lee fucking sin

RozairJul 12, 20162 votes

exactly

48983507DEL1Jul 13, 20162 votes

why not? Lee Sin's biggest strength isn't his clear speed, it's his ganking pressure from mobility, utility, and damage.

Grave's strength is clearing the jungle fast and safe, then doing a lot of damage due to all the gold he's got. Same with Shyvana.

Scuttle LoverAug 10, 20161 votes

Because Graves can easily outduel Lee sin at all stages in the game as well

PermabannedGarenAug 10, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Aka Volibear,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2s5L8iV5,comment-id=0000000100010000,timestamp=2016-08-10T18:11:12.569+0000)

Because Graves can easily outduel Lee sin at all stages in the game as well

So? Lee Sin isn't a particularly amazing duelist. If he could out-duel a late game Master Yi, Jax, or Shyvana (he can't by the way) there would be a problem.

Scuttle LoverAug 10, 20161 votes

I'm talking more about the early game. Lee is supposed to be strong early and weak after. Graves shits on him early and doesn't fall off hard later. No reason to play Lee over Graves imo

PermabannedGarenAug 10, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Aka Volibear,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2s5L8iV5,comment-id=000000010001000000000000,timestamp=2016-08-10T23:40:15.361+0000)

I'm talking more about the early game. Lee is supposed to be strong early and weak after. Graves shits on him early and doesn't fall off hard later. No reason to play Lee over Graves imo

I don't know where this stupid "Graves doesn't fall off" meme came from, but guess what? He does.

Will Graves do more damage than Lee Sin? Sure, he tends to build more. But the fact that his DPS is poor and his utility pretty low keeps him from being strong late.

Scuttle LoverAug 10, 20161 votes

Graves does fall off

Just not nearly as hard as Lee Sin does

Will Graves do more damage than Lee Sin? Sure, he tends to build more. But the fact that his DPS is poor and his utility pretty low keeps him from being strong late.

Problem is Graves is bursty. He does his combo and you're either chunked hard and out of the fight or dead in a few more autos

48983507DEL1Aug 11, 20162 votes

Lee Sin actually does outscale Graves simply because of his ultimate. It's a ton of utility while also being very versatile in it's usage.

Also, Lee Sin is strong early because he's a jack-of-all-trades. He can gank well, clear well, pressure well, and control/duel well, but he isn't the best in any of those categories.

He can't gank as well as Pantheon or Zac, he can't clear as well as Shyvana or Graves, he can't pressure as well as Shaco or Rengar, and he can't control/duel as well as Udyr or Trundle.

However, there's hardly ever a situation where picking Lee Sin is a bad idea, simply because he can do all-of-the-above well enough to take advantage of the other weaknesses that rival junglers have.

AND he's not the only jungler with this jack-of-all-trades setup. Elise, Ekko, and Nidalee serve similar purposes to Lee Sin, and at certain times have replaced him as the go-to jungler of the game.

Graves can't gank or pull off game-making plays nearly as well Lee Sin can. All he can really do is get ahead with his high clear speed to provide extra damage for the team. What makes him different from Shyvana and Yi is that he can do it from range, making him safer.

Scuttle LoverAug 12, 20161 votes

Lee Sin actually does outscale Graves simply because of his ultimate. It's a ton of utility while also being very versatile in it's usage.

False. His ultimate falls off hard late game. The only usage is kick away or kick into team. You must be low elo if you think Lee Sin scales well in late game simply due to his R.

He can't gank as well as Pantheon or Zac, he can't clear as well as Shyvana or Graves, he can't pressure as well as Shaco or Rengar, and he can't control/duel as well as Udyr or Trundle.

Still doesn't change the fact that early game is where Lee shines, not late. Graves still shits on him at all points in the game at almost everything except post 6 ganks.

AND he's not the only jungler with this jack-of-all-trades setup.

Problem has nothing to do with Lee. It's Graves. It shouldn't be possible for him to clear and duel so well early and not fall off much late compared to other early game champs. Elise, Ekko, Lee all fall off harder than Graves, yet graves can outduel the majority of these early

48983507DEL1Aug 12, 20161 votes

Not sure you can elo shame me when you're only Plat V.

You realize that kicking an enemy either as a pick off, multi-man engage, or disengage is still way more utility than Graves brings to the table, right? It may not be practical all of the time, but it's extremely useful when a skilled Lee Sin can win a fight by properly utilizing his ultimate.

Yes and Lee Sin is still far superior to Graves early in the game. Just because Graves can straight up outdamage Lee Sin early doesn't mean he's "better". Lee Sin still has better ganking, control, and pressure.

Okay then the same can be said about Master Yi and Shyvana. They can both clear and outdamage Lee Sin early game while outscaling him. That's their niche: getting ahead and hitting people with all of the gold they've gotten from farming. Lee Sin is about getting him and his teammates ahead through ganking and map pressure.

Scuttle LoverAug 12, 20161 votes

Not sure you can elo shame me when you're only Plat V.

Check the stats. This account has no stats for last season and has climbed quickly. It's a smurf used to practice new champs, my main is Diamond.

You realize that kicking an enemy either as a pick off, multi-man engage, or disengage is still way more utility than Graves brings to the table, right? I

Why does this matter? Graves does retarded damage at all stages of the game . Sure he might not bring CC, but that doesn't mean shit when I'm getting one shot by him.

Yes and Lee Sin is still far superior to Graves early in the game. Just because Graves can straight up outdamage Lee Sin early doesn't mean he's "better". Lee Sin still has better ganking, control, and pressure.

Nope. Graves wins the early game duel against Lee, clears much easier and faster, and pre 6 his ganks are the same shit as Lee Sins

At 6 Lee gets better a ganks, Graves still remains strong as fuck in duels.

Okay then the same can be said about Master Yi and Shyvana. They can both clear and outdamage Lee Sin early game while outscaling him

Those champs are garbage in team fights unless ahead. Graves is pretty good in team fights.

There is a reason most challenger junglers will tell you right now Graves is one of if the not the best jungler in the game. The damage he can output while remaining beefy is stupid. And I still have no idea why a champ who was originally an adc, designed for that role, can clear the jungle better than most jungle champs

Bears Dont CareAug 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

So? Lee Sin isn't a particularly amazing duelist.

Err... Lee Sin is a pretty dang good duelist considering he can beat the snot out of dueling champs such as Warwick in early game. Then again Warwick sucks...

MY POINT IS... Lee Sin isn't amazing but he is pretty friggin good at it.

PermabannedGarenAug 12, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bears Dont Care,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2s5L8iV5,comment-id=000000010001000000000001,timestamp=2016-08-12T01:53:58.187+0000)

Err... Lee Sin is a pretty dang good duelist considering he can beat the snot out of dueling champs such as Warwick in early game. Then again Warwick sucks...

MY POINT IS... Lee Sin isn't amazing but he is pretty friggin good at it.

First of all, Warwick is hot fucking garbage early game. Mid to late game there'd be no comparison. Warwick would destroy Lee Sin 1v1.

Second of all, true, but he tends to be ass stomped by guys like Udyr, Shyvana, Kindred (pre nerfs), and I think Volibear even early game.

Lee Sin early on is definitely good at dueling and invading, but he's not unassailable.

Meep ManAug 10, 20161 votes

Yeah, but they aren't currently considered OP in either of these roles, so what is your point? I can name the strengths of a champion and say they win games due to their strengths, but that doesn't mean they are OP.

FrnakAug 12, 20161 votes

And Malz will continue to get nerfs.

Rito: "WE DIDNT LIKE HOW BINARY MALZ WAS SO HERES NEW REWORK"

Malz ---> Clear jungle, Press R.

Playing midlane is 50 times more difficult than it used to be. His team fight presence has been diminished to "lol dont let my voidlings die pls" until late game.

Malz 4 Mid pls. No more of this hyper-clear-jungler crap. dfasjflsakdhjgf