i.e. Riven, Zed, Rumble, Maokai, Hecarim. It is stressful to play champs such as Gp, Poppy, Fiora, even WW, Udyr, Wukong at top...
Why are certain champs restricted to a jungle start simply because they can't clear lane minions well/unopposed?
What does that say about the balance of the game in general?
Vistha Kai5 votesThere is nothing more stressful than playing aganist a Poppy main.
#Nothing
DrNova5 votestop lane is naturally the least forgiving.
Mid often has ranged champs and a shorter kind of safer lane. Bot has ranged champs and a buddy for backup. Jungle usually doesnt fight unless they want to, counterjungling aside.
Top lane is a long lane with nothing but 1v1, most times melee champs, so it is more champ vs champ then the other lanes. You cant expect to 1v1 every champ with every champ. Sounds like you just dont play champs that counter/do well vs alot of currently common tops? It doesnt comment on the balance of the game at all. There are counters, no one elses fault you dont play them besides your own really.
Fraggleroc1 votestop lane is naturally the least forgiving.
Mid often has ranged champs and a shorter kind of safer lane. Bot has ranged champs and a buddy for backup. Jungle usually doesnt fight unless they want to, counterjungling aside.
Top lane is a long lane with nothing but 1v1, most times melee champs, so it is more champ vs champ then the other lanes. You cant expect to 1v1 every champ with every champ. Sounds like you just dont play champs that counter/do well vs alot of currently common tops? It doesnt comment on the balance of the game at all. There are counters, no one elses fault you dont play them besides your own really.
Oh I play them. I know top all too well. I come from the days of top Udyr with infinite shield or Morde top. I'm simply fed up with how limited our choices of champs at top are due to the limitation of items/skillsets? Every time a new champ comes out- u check him with the requirements to be a top laning champ- u become disappointed almost every single time. Even bruisers who are 'supposed' to be good at top- most of them fail the mark i.e. Wukong, Fiora. I'd sooner start them in jungle and they'll do better from there.
DrNova2 votesFiora and Wu arent really bruisers so much. If they arent winning a fight from the get go they have a hard time finishing it. Wu has a little bit of durability but not a ton.
Bot of them are good in teamfights though, and wu is great roaming (not sure about fiora) But just because they cant dominate their lane doesnt mean they are useless. It just means they will have a tough lane phase. Bot of them though, if you just farm and dont die early lane, will be fine the rest of the game.
It kind of sounds like you expect to be able to kill your opponent always, and thats not always the case.
NemeBro5 votesi.e. Riven, Zed, Rumble, Maokai, Hecarim. It is stressful to play champs such as Gp, Poppy, Fiora, even WW, Udyr, Wukong at top...
Why are certain champs restricted to a jungle start simply because they can't clear lane minions well/unopposed?
What does that say about the balance of the game in general?
What world do you live in where Fiora and Wukong aren't among the strongest top laners? Fifth and third highest win rates top lane, and they consistently have some of the highest win rates and performance rates so it's not like this is recent.
Wukong's laning phase can be hard depending on your opponent, but because of his ult he can always come back from a poor laning phase. It's that strong.
Fiora does incredible damage top lane and wave clears fine with burst of speed. The fact that she rushes a tiamat makes wave clearing simple. Wukong also rushes a tiamat. So I'm not sure what the issue is.
Poppy also basically does fine top, and has a solid win rate.
Warwick doesn't do well top because he has a weak as fuck early game. He's nothing without his ult. GP usually does fine. Last-hitting with his Q is both easy and very rewarding, though his win rate has sort of tanked this patch. Don't know why.
Fraggleroc1 votesWhat world do you live in where Fiora and Wukong aren't among the strongest top laners? Fifth and third highest win rates top lane, and they consistently have some of the highest win rates and performance rates so it's not like this is recent.
Wukong's laning phase can be hard depending on your opponent, but because of his ult he can always come back from a poor laning phase. It's that strong.
Fiora does incredible damage top lane and wave clears fine with burst of speed. The fact that she rushes a tiamat makes wave clearing simple. Wukong also rushes a tiamat. So I'm not sure what the issue is.
Poppy also basically does fine top, and has a solid win rate.
Warwick doesn't do well top because he has a weak as fuck early game. He's nothing without his ult. GP usually does fine. Last-hitting with his Q is both easy and very rewarding, though his win rate has sort of tanked this patch. Don't know why.
The issue is Tiamat comes too late when u're fighting Heca, Rumble, Maokai... heck even Lulu.
edit: The components of Tiamat does not allow u to survive the onslaught of said champs too. They will make sure your Fiora and Wukong become so far behind by the time u get a Tiamat. I'm not sure win-rates show everything.
NemeBro3 votesThe issue is Tiamat comes too late when u're fighting Heca, Rumble, Maokai... heck even Lulu.
Really? How is that?
Maokai is countered by Wukong. Rumble is countered by Fiora.
The only one who probably counters both is Hecarim, I think. No comment on Lulu, but she is so rare top lane that I wouldn't worry about it.
And even while countered, Wukong and especially Fiora have solid last-hitting under tower so you shouldn't be feeding that badly.
This ignores that Fiora and Wukong also counter other top laners you named. Both have positive win rates against Riven, and Fiora is often considered one of her hardest match ups.
Fraggleroc1 votesReally? How is that?
Maokai is countered by Wukong. Rumble is countered by Fiora.
The only one who probably counters both is Hecarim, I think. No comment on Lulu, but she is so rare top lane that I wouldn't worry about it.
And even while countered, Wukong and especially Fiora have solid last-hitting under tower so you shouldn't be feeding that badly.
This ignores that Fiora and Wukong also counter other top laners you named. Both have positive win rates against Riven, and Fiora is often considered one of her hardest match ups.
Are u playing a different game than I am? Sure feels that way. Yes, u can last-hit under tower but u'll be so behind, esp. in soloq. Any top-laner worth their salt will not get ganked in soloq. This is not LCS where 3 of them collaborate to dive u under turret. Like I said- 'more stressful' to play. I didn't say it cannot be done.
I play Wukong at top with success all the time- But Heca/Maokai/Lulu etc is in a league of their own is all I'm saying.
NemeBro4 votesAre u playing a different game than I am? Sure feels that way. Yes, u can last-hit under tower but u'll be so behind, esp. in soloq. Any decent top-laner will not be ganked in soloq. This is not LCS where 3 of them collaborate to dive u under turret. Like I said- 'more stressful' to play. I didn't say it cannot be done.
I play Wukong at top with success all the time- But Heca/Maokai/Lulu etc is in a league of their own is all I'm saying.
Nope, Riven is dumpstered on by Fiora and generally loses against Wukong. Riven literally has a 44% win rate against Fiora.
And you're wrong about them, with the exception of Hecarim, who is also a serious contender for one of the strongest top laners.
Maokai literally has a win rate of 48% in top lane, and his average stats are largely unremarkable.
Lulu has a better win rate, but her overall placement is even lower than Maokai's. She's extremely annoying, but not particularly great.
Wukong and Fiora are better than both.
Fraggleroc1 votesNope, Riven is dumpstered on by Fiora and generally loses against Wukong. Riven literally has a 44% win rate against Fiora.
And you're wrong about them, with the exception of Hecarim, who is also a serious contender for one of the strongest top laners.
Maokai literally has a win rate of 48% in top lane, and his average stats are largely unremarkable.
Lulu has a better win rate, but her overall placement is even lower than Maokai's. She's extremely annoying, but not particularly great.
Wukong and Fiora are better than both.
Since u're all about win-rates... which do not show the entire situation (does not show pick/ban counters in champ select or whether they actually won the top lane or not btw).
How about I just say Hecarim, Maokai, Lulu are the safest picks at top? They're in a league of their own when it comes to safest picks at top. And this gives them a huge advantage over the rest.
I also take into consideration the ability to splitpush etc. There's no denying Heca and gang are the best. And there are actually very few viable options. I challenge u to pick Fiora/Wukong first pick in champ select. It is up to u to want to play Fiora/Wukong, if u enjoy the stress.
edit: U know what - I know how to win as Wukong vs Hecarim. I go shit on other lanes. But I didn't win my lane. And often, I do better as jungle Wukong anyway. Less stress, more fun. I can win the game easily and attain high win-rate ( that is another issue btw) . But I haven't been dominant in my lane vs Hecarim- therefore, I LOST the lane.
NemeBro3 votesSince u're all about win-rates... which do not show the entire situation (does not show pick/ban counters in champ select or whether they actually won the top lane or not btw).
How about I just say Hecarim, Maokai, Lulu are the safest picks at top? They're in a league of their own when it comes to safest picks at top. And this gives them a huge advantage over the rest.
I also take into consideration the ability to splitpush etc. There's no denying Heca and gang are the best. And there are actually very few viable options. I challenge u to pick Fiora/Wukong first pick in champ select. It is up to u to play Fiora/Wukong, if u enjoy stress.
You don't always need to win top lane. Wukong and Fiora scale very well, and due to their kits will almost always be a threat, even when behind. That's what makes them strong.
Lulu is super safe, which is part of what makes her annoying. Hecarim? Why? I've ripped every Hecarim I've laned against in half. He ultimately has to get close to you to hurt you, and isn't particularly durable early on, nor is he a strong duelist. I've torn him in half with Renekton in the early and late game solo. What makes Hecarim strong is his cheesy roaming ability and his very good teamfighting. His laning is pretty solid, but I've never found it remarkable (which isn't to say that he isn't really good, because he is really good), or at least not "safe".
No comment on Maokai. I've only fought against him once, as Tryndamere, and I beat his ass in lane, so I don't really know how safe he is or isn't.
Hecarim and Gangplank aren't the best splitpushers, lol. A Hecarim that tries to splitpush against a Tryndamere who isn't behind is going to die. No, Hecarim really shines in team fights, where he gets to jump over the enemy team like a majestic fucking douchesteed and crowd control them all.
I rarely first pick Fiora because I don't want to deal with a Pantheon or Malphite's bullshit, but Wukong? Sure man. I first pick Wukong fairly often. I just haven't used him in ranked yet. The only time I really felt fucked while first picking Wukong was when I had to lane against a Nasus, because I wasn't sure I was good enough with him to deny him farm well enough (and guess what, I wasn't).
Fraggleroc1 votesYou don't always need to win top lane. Wukong and Fiora scale very well, and due to their kits will almost always be a threat, even when behind. That's what makes them strong.
Lulu is super safe, which is part of what makes her annoying. Hecarim? Why? I've ripped every Hecarim I've laned against in half. He ultimately has to get close to you to hurt you, and isn't particularly durable early on, nor is he a strong duelist. I've torn him in half with Renekton in the early and late game solo. What makes Hecarim strong is his cheesy roaming ability and his very good teamfighting. His laning is pretty solid, but I've never found it remarkable (which isn't to say that he isn't really good, because he is really good), or at least not "safe".
No comment on Maokai. I've only fought against him once, as Tryndamere, and I beat his ass in lane, so I don't really know how safe he is or isn't.
Hecarim and Gangplank aren't the best splitpushers, lol. A Hecarim that tries to splitpush against a Tryndamere who isn't behind is going to die. No, Hecarim really shines in team fights, where he gets to jump over the enemy team like a majestic fucking douchesteed and crowd control them all.
I rarely first pick Fiora because I don't want to deal with a Pantheon or Malphite's bullshit, but Wukong? Sure man. I first pick Wukong fairly often. I just haven't used him in ranked yet. The only time I really felt fucked while first picking Wukong was when I had to lane against a Nasus, because I wasn't sure I was good enough with him to deny him farm well enough (and guess what, I wasn't).
Yes. It is the combination of skills.. their skillsets which makes them able to dominate the lane. It is the same reason how Zed was so dominant in mid - combination of safe wave-clearing skills, being manaless etc Look at Hecarim's Q with low mana, Rumble manaless... Riven manaless AOE skills... Lulu's wave-clear from a mile away... compared all these to Wukong's E which puts u in melee range, takes considerable mana and not exactly noteworthy damage.
FHMarshy3 votesHonestly don't know what "forced" you to play those champions. A good Fiora or Poppy can dominate the whole game themselves. Wukong not viable? are you serious?
You can play anyone anywhere as long as you are good with them.
Fraggleroc1 votesHonestly don't know what "forced" you to play those champions. A good Fiora or Poppy can dominate the whole game themselves. Wukong not viable? are you serious?
You can play anyone anywhere as long as you are good with them.
Yes. But not being able to clear lanes well is too Huge a weakness. Especially when u have champs like Hecarim and Rumble these days. It made it so champs such as Wukong, Poppy and WW are relegated to a jungle start. And ONLY a jungle start is feasible.
edit: It helped that I could bring Cinderhulk/Tiamat on these champs to the top to help clear waves. But that got nerfed as well. What can a Poppy do against a Sion wrecking machine?
FHMarshy3 votesNo offense and please don't take this personally, but I strongly think that in elos lower than gold, any champion can work anywhere if you have enough practice with them.
There isn't any rules for which champion to be played where, and to be honest with the current meta, you can actually get away with non-meta picks everywhere if you are mechanically proficient with the champion you select.
I've played Heim, LB, Poppy, Vayne, Quinn, Shaco, Amumu, WW, Panth, Brand, Braum and even Bard in the top lane and still won.
It's really not about champions, meta, counters or what not in lower elos. Skill matters more.
GroundRuleDouble2 votesThe balance is fine. I've seen plenty good players at those champs you listed.
KazaLyn Shao2 votesBecause you are. Riot hates old champs, especially those with no mobility.
ProfDrDeath2 votesOf all those champions you name as "bad", you GP is in a bad spot stat-wise.
Wukong is currently #3 in both winrate and overall performance as a top laner, possibly due to how well he interacts with Black Cleaver. Poppy is a terror in top lane in certain match-ups, and especially against Maokai. Fiora is rather stupid if build as a full AD assassin. WW and Udyr both are good junglers with positive stats, WW as a Devourer->BotRK jungler and Udyr as Cinderhulk->Triforce jungler. However, Udyr lacks the mana sustain for top lane in general match-ups, while WW is rather immobile if he is ganked (and he likes Devourer too much to really go top without it).
In solo queue, Mao is rather bad as a top laner, due to uncoordinated teams not really being able to capitalize on the strengths he brings. And Zed's rather ineffecient for solo queue, too, especially now with the nerf to allow you to react to him more easily.
Sir Yamazuki2 votesWW is an oppressive top laner if allowed to be good at it, you would know this if you've played the game long enough. As for the rest of your list, only GP has poor soloq stats, and it's mainly due to people not knowing how to play him. My 2 most played top laners are actually fairly bad, one of them even being one of the lowest win rate top laners, yet I still do just fine anyways. Picks also don't matter in lower ranks anyways, you're never going to really lose due to a pick.
jDVL20eCYs1 votespoppy and fiora have so strong strengths that the needs strong weaknesses
Shroom Junkie1 votesTop lane is stressful. Deal with it. Coming from a top lane main, if you can't handle the constant need to lane freeze or die, and the idea of playing against a bunch of freelo champs every Ranked game, then don't play it. Unless of course I'm against you, then I'll take that and I'll bully the fuck out of you. C:
Fraggleroc1 votesTop lane is stressful. Deal with it. Coming from a top lane main, if you can't handle the constant need to lane freeze or die, and the idea of playing against a bunch of freelo champs every Ranked game, then don't play it. Unless of course I'm against you, then I'll take that and I'll bully the fuck out of you. C:
I can handle it- 1) By learning champs I don't really enjoy playing. 2) My question is- Why does it have to be so?
I mean, I can count almost too many champs that have a decent chance of doing well IF I start them in the jungle SIMPLY BECAUSE they don't have good wave clearing skills. Admittedly, they're bad junglers BUT IF I had started them at top, their chances of doing well would be reduced drastically. Also, there isn't a good early item that helps with wave-clearing for these 'handicapped' champs. IF Riot makes such an item, many champs will have a chance to play at top. Instead of the same few- Heca, Rumble, Maokai ... yawn yawn
Shroom Junkie1 votesI can handle it- 1) By learning champs I don't really enjoy playing. 2) My question is- Why does it have to be so?
I mean, I can count almost too many champs that have a decent chance of doing well IF I start them in the jungle SIMPLY BECAUSE they don't have good wave clearing skills. Admittedly, they're bad junglers BUT IF I had started them at top, their chances of doing well would be reduced drastically. Also, there isn't a good early item that helps with wave-clearing for these 'handicapped' champs. IF Riot makes such an item, many champs will have a chance to play at top. Instead of the same few- Heca, Rumble, Maokai ... yawn yawn
Um. Because you don't need waveclear at top? Early game anyway. If you're trying to push top lane, then you have serious problems and need to learn what 'freeze lane' is.
Fraggleroc1 votesUm. Because you don't need waveclear at top? Early game anyway. If you're trying to push top lane, then you have serious problems and need to learn what 'freeze lane' is.
Dude, everyone freezes lane. It's Year 5 of LoL now, hello. Like I said- U can try to do well with sub-champs - But it is more stressful and is it worth the effort? That's why most simply falls back on Heca, Maokai etc.
Colgate Gator1 votesI actually have seen a lot of jungle Poppy's (Poppies?) wrecking havoc lately. I also dread whenever I am laning agaisnt a Poppy, because chances are they are good at her.
Also what are you talking about? Wukong is extremely strong at top
Fraggleroc1 votes[{quoted}](name=Postal Badger,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2ojPB1uJ,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-06-01T19:02:42.625+0000)
I actually have seen a lot of jungle Poppy's (Poppies?) wrecking havoc lately. I also dread whenever I am laning agaisnt a Poppy, because chances are they are good at her.
Also what are you talking about? Wukong is extremely strong at top
Lugg3 votesI disagree, Wukong is VERY strong top. Heck is is very strong jungle and mid as well.
Fraggleroc1 votesI disagree, Wukong is VERY strong top. Heck is is very strong jungle and mid as well.
Have u tried Wukong in jungle then? With a jungle start with zero harassment, he becomes infinitely stronger. His chance of doing well increased drastically.
Fraggleroc1 votesLets see : Viable Tops -
A) In any/most situation- Hecarim, Maokai, Rumble, Lulu, Riven, Sion, Irelia, Gnar
B) In certain very specific predefined situation- Aatrox, Darius, Jax, Urgot, Jayce, Kayle, Nasus, Pantheon, Renekton, Tryndamere, Vladimir, Malphite, Mundo
C) Wannabee Tops- Wukong, Fiora, Poppy, Gangplank, Nidalee, Teemo, Shyvana, Yorick
The problem being there's a huge gap between group A and B and the scarcity of champs in group A.