The Tank Item Rework.

Rainfall·May 27, 2017·41 votes·3,430 views

So,i would like to bring everyone's attention on how the tank item rework has left a lot of champions crippled,out of these 3 items 1.adaptive helm is complete garbage,it is mathematically impossible to get worth out of this item. 2.zz portal has reached one of the lowest buy rates in league of legends . 3.sunfire cape got gutted. I respect riot's effort on reworking sejuani zac rammus etc,and i agree that some of the reworks were succesfull leaving some of those champions with high winrates and playrates.But those are not the only champions in league of legends that build defensive items. All in all,the tank class has become more dull,with item diversity DROPPING despite the addition of new items in the defensive item pool. is the ONLY option for a first magic resist item on tanks. is the ONLY option for a lategame tank. The way things are heading buying or going pretty much full damage/ap will be the only choice for toplane players.

109 Comments

morris1May 27, 201722 votes

Making item 3068 a PvE item is really lame, especially since they said they wanted to make it more interesting. For item 3194 I'm biased but I think it will always be too powerful (yet situational) if good and a worse Spirit Visage otherwise. Not only that, but it interacts with unwanted champions such as burst mages ( Syndra Katarina Heimerdinger [rockets]) and marksmen ( Corki KogMaw Varus ). Its passive might need to be changed to something else or the reduction be made more clear. item 3512 is awful now since it's very easily destroyed and voidlings travel much less. If the gate or voidling resistance to distance damage scaled with the user's health it could become great again without being abused by people who don't buy tank items.

RainfallMay 27, 201712 votes

item 3194 too powerfull? is this a joke? this item reaches ohmwreckers level of bad It is mathematicaly proven that it can NEVER be as good as spirit visage,no matter what champion you face.

BoilTheOilMay 27, 201710 votes

even Cassiopeia ?

FairyfleurMay 28, 20171 votes

Cass usually starts her combo with Q, and then starts using Twin Fang. Which reduces the damage of her Q, but not her Twin Fang.

WinTheWarOnPantsMay 28, 20176 votes

I'm pretty sure thats not true. The wording on the item is just plain wonky, but from what i understand i keeps track of each magic dmg source. Every time you get hit with a new dmg source, it reduces follow up dmg from that souce. So if she hit's you with Q then Q dmg is reduced for 4 seconds, if she hit's you with E after, then dmg will be reduced from E for 4 seconds after the first. It's just a stupid stupid and should have never been made in the first place.

FairyfleurMay 28, 20172 votes

I thought that it reduced the damage of x for x seconds, and once x seconds was over, and then could reduce the damage of the next one. I could just be so wrong though.

ZacsterMay 28, 20174 votes

{quoted}

even ?

Wait so Riot made an item that is only worth buying if you're against a Cass? That's what your argument sounds like.

Sexy Jack RabbitMay 28, 20171 votes

Namely Cassiopeia Zyra Syndra Azir and Taliyah

RecessHeroMay 28, 20171 votes

Don't forget Rumble

Sexy Jack RabbitMay 29, 20171 votes

Rumble was similar situation to Singed. Wasn't sure if it applied to his abilities, so I didn't include him in an effort to not look dumb.

IPromiseTomorrowMay 28, 20171 votes

I wish it wasn't so good against Azir. He's the mage with high late game DPS and I love it so much I'm not into that item.

nice tableMay 28, 20172 votes

riot made the item pretty much specifically to remove swain, cassio and ryze from the top lane, seems to have worked out decently well tbh.

junglerboy16May 28, 20171 votes

The stats the item provides are only worth 2,357 gold, while the price tag is 2,800. SV offers 2,937 gold worth of raw stats (almost 600 more gold value for the same price tag).

Once you factor in the passive, you'd expect AH to catch up a bit, but it is actually inferior in every way regardless. The damage reduction it offers (even if it applied 24/7 instead of only reapplications of effects or DoTs) is equivalent to 17.5 MR, which has a gold value of 315, meaning it is in a best case scenario worth only 2,672 gold.

You lose money by building this item and SV does everything it does better. You survive more initial damage, you last longer in a fight due to sustain, and you recover more quickly after a fight as well.

Adaptive helm is at best a crappy second item to get after SV, at worst throwing away gold and an item slot. 90% of the time you would be better off buying a second spirit visage instead.

TeCoolMageMay 28, 20172 votes

saying 15% = 17.5 MR is extremely misleading and almost never the case. Maybe if you have 0 MR for some reason like adaptive is your only MR item and the enemy has void staff + liandry's + mpen boots.

At 100 MR beforehand it's worth like double that. % dmg reduction is a constant amount of damage taken away while each point of MR is worth less as you get more (that way you can't get 17.5*7=122.5 MR and have 105% damage reduction).

junglerboy16May 28, 20171 votes

I was using that to point out how weak the stat is, but you're correct and it isn't as worthless all of the time (my bad, I didn't intend to be misleading, I just reverse engineered the math and forgot how base resistance effects it). That said, the minimal damage reduction it does offer doesn't make up for how absurdly inefficient it is in cost. SV's passive is arguably stronger, and the base stats it gives are at least equivalent in strength to adaptive helm as a whole item.

Champion SkinMay 29, 20171 votes

Well it isn't quite a +15% increase in damage reduction either though since all forms of damage reduction is multiplicative (you wouldn't want something to accidentally add up to 100% damage reduction after all)

For instance at 50% damage reduction (100 MR) the additional 15% damage reduction will reduced the damage to 0.5 (50%) X 0.85 (15% reduction) = 0.425

Which is 57.5% reduction which is a 7.5% increase in the damage reduction not 15% (though the higher the damage reduction the more valuable each % of damage reduction is so it isn't that big of a deal)

TeCoolMageMay 29, 20171 votes

Your last statement (in brackets) is pretty much on point: the % of damage you reduce overall has no set value of gold. x MR is worth x gold regardless of whether you're at 9999 MR or -9999 MR, and the % damage reduction in turn is different each time. Turning that 2% damage taken into 1% damage taken is worth much more to a tank than 100% damage taken into 90% damage taken for an ADC.

Well it isn't quite a +15% increase in damage reduction either though since all forms of damage reduction is multiplicative (you wouldn't want something to accidentally add up to 100% damage reduction after all)

It's actually dependent on how you look at it: I can reduce 100 damage by 15% THEN by the MR, or I can reduce the 100 damage by MR THEN the 15% and it will make the 15% seem smaller.

korg023May 27, 20173 votes

I will pick Cassio you pick Nasus and you buy spirit visage first lets see how many times i have to throw E at you before you die and then you buy Adaptive helm and count my spells again. Then you will see that this item is BY FAR stronger item than Spirit Visage in CERTAIN MATCHUPS that is why this item is SITUATIONAL and is better in some cases and in some cases not.

Champion SkinMay 29, 20171 votes

Nasus is a pretty bad example because increasing his hp regen and healing from Q life steal by 30% does increase the damage he can take by a decent amount And the sustain from Spirit Visage would probably be way better when it comes to laning (and it even work with potions)

doiminat0r3600May 28, 20174 votes

Show me the math please. If you insist its mathmatically impossible, show me. Put it against a level 18 teemo with 5 deathcaps and 1 Liandrys. Then test it on a shroom, auto attack, and Liandrys. See if the item helps stop the damage from the DoT spells.
Damage overtime counter is what this is meant for. If your lane opponet is or any mage that builds , You've pretty much won lane at that point.

TranozeMay 28, 20173 votes

item 3065 Have 150 more health with the same amount of gold. Assume the ability does 100 dps(after magic resist). Let talk about a tank champion with no heal ability Rammus 700 base health level 3: 1000 health with item 3194 , you can live 1 + 900/85 = 11.588 secs. regen 40.43736 health. living time total = 12.06 secs 1150 health with item 3065 , you can live 11.5 secs. regen 52.2 health. living time total = 12.02 secs. 1700 base health level 14: 2000 health with , you can live 23.35 secs. regen 136.364 health. living time total = 24.95 secs. 2150 heath with , you can live 21.5 secs. regen 163.22 health . living time total = 23.13 secs. _ This is assuming they only take damage from one source, and that source is an ability deal dps._ Now let put it in both solo fight and team fight. Do you stand still for enemy to continues use ability on you? How can that ability actually deal when you touch the damage dealt source killed you? normally 300~800 right? At that point you regen more heath during that time than the 15% damage taken. Does it actually reduce damage bust? no, took 2/3 of your champion you mentioned Teemo Anivia AP Gangplank Katarina Kennen Malzahar Ziggs ARE BUST DAMAGE, they deal more bust damage than their DPS. Even they can use one ability twice on you, that mean item 3194 only reduce 7.5% of their damage.

Now let talk about item 3151 , it deal 2% of your current health.

Assume you have 3000 health with 100 magic resist, 17.3 base heal regen. it deal 30 magic damage per second. item 3194 reduce 4.5 damage per second. item 3065 heal you 2.076 more heal per second. (with no rune or mastery) and image each health regen item bring it more, and each magic resist reduce the damage reduction by more:

you have 3000 heal with 200 magic resist 17.3 base heal regen, + 200% heal regen from other sources: item 3194 reduce 3 damage per second. item 3065 heal you 4.152 more heal per second.

Now you can do your own caculate, the reality that item 3194 more efficient than item 3065 only happen in custom game and you stand still for enemy to deal damage.

doiminat0r3600May 28, 20172 votes

If you think that teemo is more burst than DPS, that's a problem.

I mentioned most of these because they have atleast one DoT ability. Kat Ult, Anivia Ult, GP Ult, Ziggs E puts you in the middle of a circle of bombs and the only way out is through them, Malzahar Ult, and Kennen Ult. Just because they have burst doesn't mean they're all nothing but burst. The damage coming off of certain abilities will be reduced which could save your life. Generally, when a champion is using an ability with DoT, it immobilizes them or makes it to where they have the opprotunity to forget about you once the ability is on.

If your lane opponent is brand, you would take less damage from his passive. Same thing with Teemo's E and Shrooms. Even GP's ultimate does Magic damage. You have a better chance of surviving it with the item.

The bonus may be small, but its still 80% gold efficient without its passive.

TranozeMay 28, 20172 votes

First, item 3194 only work with magic damage. Second, it only work with ability have cooldown shorter than 4 seconds. And as i mentioned before, all champion deal less than 1000 damage to tank (after magic resist) would count as item 3065 better than for the 150 more health.

Let talk about level 16 GP's Ult, It deal 1020 magic damage. let say he ult 2 rammus at level 3, one with spirit visage and one with adaptive helm Both rammus have 100 magic resist and 700 base health for example (for easy caculate) Rammus with adaptive helm receive (85 + 11850.85)/2 439.875 damage, result he have 560.125 heal left. Rammus with spirit visage receive 510 damage, result he have 640 heal left. (150 more heal from spirit visage) So who will have better chance of survive? Rammus with spirit visage will recover faster out side combat, and if he meet an AD champions, he have 80 more health, and if he meet any ap champion, daily reminder that first bust of any AP wont reduce by item 3194

So no, You WON'T have any better chance of surviving with the item.

The problem is the more you build magic resist or heal regen, the more effective item 3065 than item 3194 , and both of those stats are by default stack with tons of tank items, and when you have no items, spirit visage already better than adaptive helm. You can build both items though, but it wont change the fact that adaptive help is trash compare to it price.

KoLoTouRoSMay 27, 201712 votes

Riot gave tanks the support treatment buy these 2 items on every support in the game or be garbage "#itemdiversity"

General Esdeath May 27, 201712 votes

item 3194 is pretty good vs Cassiopeia Singed tbh

korg023May 27, 20177 votes

i agree and i dont see how people are so blind. Yes Spirit Visage is better item stat vise in general when you just need magic resist item. But Adaptive Helm is way better pick in certain matchups like the ones you mentioned i would also add Teemo Swain Rumble

SquashCannonMay 28, 20172 votes

{quoted}

is pretty good vs tbh

You can build visage against singed and he'll never be able to kill you unless he goes full retard full ap.

Singed's damage becomes quite negligible with just one mr item, and that doesnt even have to be adaptive helm.

EcchiOtakuTMMay 27, 20174 votes

Adaptive should just have no duration, but instead you gain stacking magic dmg mitigation (up to 4/5 stacks) on hitting max stacks the next of that peculiar spell will reset it.

OR (to make it simplier to code) you gain stacking mitigation against the next magic dmg that hits (up to 4 stacks so 15/30/45/60%, this way it still does it's purpose but there's a bit more leeway for casters to get off some big spells when it's at low or no stacks.

However going the second they HAVE TO add a new visual effect that's easy on the eyes so people know which stack it's at(0/1/2/3/4) so they can blow something weak to pop all the stacks or plan which skill they want to use.

Although it would be even stronger vs multi-hit caster so maybe instead of any spell magic damage source, it's just spells cast w/o care of it being multi-hit (So a syndra ulti would be 1 stack instead of 3-8)

But then it would be for extended magical engages in general instead of vs multi-hit mages it was intended for.

RainfallMay 28, 20171 votes

adaptive helm should have a 25% reduction. Or Give 100 more hp Or Decrease subjecuent magic damage

NickssaaMay 27, 20173 votes

the only purpose of item 3194 is to make Azir cry in the corner

ArakadiaMay 27, 20172 votes

Nah. Cass, Ryze, Swain, etc. all get hit by it too.

DeusVultMay 27, 20173 votes

Sunfire change is garbage, and it being garbage and causing tanks to lose pressure in lane, combined with item 3193 being the new, better option for Armor/MR item compared to item 3512 means that zz'rot went WAYYYYY down in priority. Hell, even item 3060 is better on most tanks now since you dont need to be near it to get worth from the active.

item 3194 stats are way to low, and its barely even worth getting against someone like Teemo with full DOT.

The tank rework didnt help tanks at all itemwise. Also, item 3143 will always be a must pickup on tanks as long as it is the only item with a "reduce crit damage" passive, given how crit works in this game.

Champion SkinMay 29, 20171 votes

Teemo is a lot of harass.... so the extra sustain from item 3065 might be almost just as good (since it also increase health regen and potions and such)

Kuntzz WardenMay 28, 20173 votes

Its so stupid how a maw of malmortius literaly makes you tankier than a mr tank item. It gives the same amount of magic resist, but the actual magic shield value is higher than the hp on tank items except for spirit visage. On top of that it gives AD, 10% cdr and lifesteal and spellvamp when the shield procs. Riot plz.

Tobias BracknerMay 28, 20173 votes

Wait, does the resistance from adaptive helm get reset if you get hit with a different spell?

I assumed it kept track of all the spells you got hit by and each is on their own timer for the "reduced damage from this spell"

DragonSheaMay 27, 20172 votes

item 3194 Adaptive Helm needs to grant a flat amount of magic damage reduction. It fucking sucks against poke and I'd like to see it being made into an anti-poke/Dot magic damage Item.

ArakadiaMay 27, 20179 votes

Your asking for its niche to be removed...

If its anti-poke and anti-dps/dot than its basically anti-all magic damage except burst which it still counters just not as much.

Baron of BreadMay 27, 20172 votes

Spirit Visage already has those covered by granting additional regen when damaged by spells.

The Yetii RiderMay 27, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Baron of Bread,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2o1pJJjm,comment-id=00040001,timestamp=2017-05-27T20:55:06.509+0000)

Spirit Visage already has those covered by granting additional regen when damaged by spells.

Spirit Visage doesn't do that. That's the passive on Spectral Cowl, it is lost when you upgrade it.

Chembaron YamadaMay 28, 20172 votes

It doesn't grant additional regen when you get hit. But he still has a point. The item provides base health regen and on top of it improves sustain by giving additional healing. Both is valuable if you have to deal with poke.

And you don't really lose anything. If I remember correctly, the health regen of Spirit Visage is more than the enhanced regen from Spectral Cowl.

The Yetii RiderMay 28, 20171 votes

{quoted}

It doesn't grant additional regen when you get hit. But he still has a point. The item provides base health regen and on top of it improves sustain by giving additional healing. Both is valuable if you have to deal with poke.

And you don't really lose anything. If I remember correctly, the health regen of Spirit Visage is more than the enhanced regen from Spectral Cowl.

It used to. Latest round of nerfs put SV regen at 130%, Cowl gives 150% when struck.

Votable JesterMay 28, 20171 votes

Is that including SV's increased healing?

Champion SkinMay 29, 20171 votes

SV gives +100% base health regen and 30% increase regen/healing ----> +130% regen Though in reality is +160% regen since all champions have 100% base regen as well (which gets increased by 30%)

Though even then it is only 10% better then Cowl when it is proced

Chembaron YamadaMay 28, 20171 votes

According to the wiki, Spirit Visage grants 160% health regen. Because the passive is boosting the base regen of the character by 30% and the 100% bonus health regen as well.

160% health regen > 150% health regen

If the information in the wiki is correct, then Spirit Visage is still granting more regen than Spectral Cowl, even if you don't get hit by an enemy.

The Yetii RiderMay 28, 20171 votes

I suppose. Still doesn't really address the main point of the original poster I was replying to, who said that the SV regen was comparable to the reduction against repeated attacks granted by Adaptive Helm.

no to toxicMay 27, 20172 votes

item 3194 is not garbage. I would say its far too niche. When you pick it in the right situation you basically have a stronger Tabis against most sustained magic dmg alongside the mr you are basically unkillable. But when there is no champion who doesnt spam spells every 5 seconds then its preety bad.

Romans VI XXIIIMay 27, 20174 votes

lol, um the only thing this item is useful against in DoT spells, other than that unless the spell has a CD lower than 4 seconds its passive is useless.