Mid champions that can't 100-0 in a combo are basically unplayable right now

Yenn·Jan 4, 2017·9 votes·1,039 views

In part because of their inability to follow the enemy to bottom lane, due to the high risk of them turning as they follow.

Best case scenario, the river + entrances to bottom lane are fully warded, and you can follow without worrying about being turned on, but arrive late.

Worst case scenario, you can try to follow, but risk the enemy mid turning on you in the river, or being sandwiched between their mid and jungle if you don't know where it is.

You lose either way.

When is this going to be address? Wasn't last season's Mage update supposed to fix this?

39 Comments

Asayake 5150glowJan 5, 20172 votes

TwistedFate can't 100-0 and doesn't have those problems. Neatly solved by his ult, of course!

SkiasJan 5, 20172 votes

{quoted}

can't 100-0 and doesn't have those problems. Neatly solved by his ult, of course!

He totally can 100-0 with lichbane.

Asayake 5150glowJan 5, 20171 votes

{quoted}

He totally can 100-0 with lichbane.

Definitely not with his standard mostly defensive build, and the full AP build needs to get to late game for him to really start oneshotting.

I'm saying this as someone who rushes Lichbane on him, not Abyssal or RoA.

SkiasJan 5, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Definitely not with his standard mostly defensive build, and the full AP build needs to get to late game for him to really start oneshotting.

I'm saying this as someone who rushes Lichbane on him, not Abyssal or RoA.

What standard build is defensive? His job is to ult bottom and explode someone. He shouldn't be building defensive.

Asayake 5150glowJan 5, 20171 votes

{quoted}

What standard build is defensive? His job is to ult bottom and explode someone. He shouldn't be building defensive.

Nah, mostly his job is to ult bot and 2 second stun someone, and then his teammates explode them.

RoA, Abyssal, Zhonya's, Lich Bane, Luden's Echo. That's a pretty standard build, usually with RoA and Abyssal being early items, the rest in random order.

SkiasJan 5, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Nah, mostly his job is to ult bot and 2 second stun someone, and then his teammates explode them.

RoA, Abyssal, Zhonya's, Lich Bane, Luden's Echo. That's a pretty standard build, usually with RoA and Abyssal being early items, the rest in random order.

Can't remember the last time I saw a TF build a RoA. Almost every TF I see in Gold and above can easily 100-0 someone.

Asayake 5150glowJan 5, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Can't remember the last time I saw a TF build a RoA. Almost every TF I see in Gold and above can easily 100-0 someone.

Fairly sure I saw Bjergsen build RoA on TF last time I saw him play him.... meh.

But tbh TF doesn't have the scalings to 100-0.

SkiasJan 5, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Fairly sure I saw Bjergsen build RoA on TF last time I saw him play him.... meh.

But tbh TF doesn't have the scalings to 100-0.

With lichbane and luden's he certainly does. If you have 600 AP as TF, you can nuke anyone who isnt a tank with ease.

Asayake 5150glowJan 5, 20171 votes

{quoted}

With lichbane and luden's he certainly does. If you have 600 AP as TF, you can nuke anyone who isnt a tank with ease.

You don't get 600 AP till late game without a full, heavy AP build. As in, no Zhonya's or Abyssal (or maybe only one of them). So... my point is made. He can only one shot late game with a heavy damage build.

Personally I prefer to play him by goldcard + Q (auto) and running away, and doing that over an over again, since the combo gets a 2-4 second cd late game with 40-45% CDR.

SkiasJan 6, 20171 votes

{quoted}

You don't get 600 AP till late game without a full, heavy AP build. As in, no Zhonya's or Abyssal (or maybe only one of them). So... my point is made. He can only one shot late game with a heavy damage build.

Personally I prefer to play him by goldcard + Q (auto) and running away, and doing that over an over again, since the combo gets a 2-4 second cd late game with 40-45% CDR.

that's how you play him. so YOU can't 100-0 anyone. But there are plenty of good TF players that can play him glass and stomp with him because their timing is on point.

MelledoneusJan 5, 20172 votes

TF builds mainly offensive.

Unless you're playing Tank Fate.

SkiasJan 5, 20171 votes

{quoted}

TF builds mainly offensive.

Unless you're playing Tank Fate.

Yeah, that's what I see too. I've never seen a tanky TF.

Jeanne fan clubJan 5, 20171 votes

Bot camp meta helps him out a lot imo, that's at least why I think he is viable.

Jeanne fan clubJan 5, 20172 votes

Its more than just the ability to 100-0, its the ability to 100-0 before or at lvl 6, if the champion is unable to do this they are flat out unviable

Look at Katarina , she can straight up shunpo on someone lvl 3 and 100-0 because the opposing midlaner will not have enough ms to outrun her daggers, and her triple shunpo.

or Syndra with her 100-0 burst at lvl 6, with a stun range that makes Xerath jelous

or Leblanc with her chains, but tbh I think lb is much more balanced right now than she used to be.

Or Lux with her ridiculous snowball potential and enough damage to kill someone in 3 abilities (or just q and ult later in the game)

or Jayce who just happens to have a 600+ damage poke along with 4 other abilities that will delete you.

Ahri can 100-0 you if she lands all of her abilities, all 3 dashes, ignite and weaves at least 3 auto attacks in. Tbh, out of all of these other mages, I think Ahri is the closest to being balanced considering her combo takes so much longer than the others. Also, Ahri dashes while Katarina blinks, and shunpo landing area isnt consistent anymore because she can aim where she wants to land, making predicting it almost impossible.

Annie we have all heard this one before

Xerath Ziggs but it is kind of cool to see that poke mages have resurfaced into the meta again

Orianna safe af laning phase, and will hit you for a 900 damage ult with a 800 damage w by late game.

JorenciceJan 4, 20171 votes

Sources?

YennJan 4, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Sources?

The fact that my Ziggs win rate has gone from 63% to 51% regardless of winning my lane 90% of the time, because every single game has an assassin mid and I can't follow it to bottom lane, where it inevitably participates in a 4/5-man dive and takes the first tower, because I can't out-push 4/5 champions.

And then I lose my own tower to those same 4/5 champions, because it takes a minimum of 3 bombs for me to clear the wave, meaning it's going down within two minion waves, assuming I ult the first one to delay them from taking it.

And then losing the game because the first team to get bottom lane's tower usually wins the game.

JorenciceJan 5, 20171 votes

Weird because ziggs currently has a 54.5% winrate in plat+

Also 51% is still climbing...so.... fail to see the problem.

YennJan 5, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Weird because ziggs currently has a 54.5% winrate in plat+

Also 51% is still climbing...so.... fail to see the problem.

Except I used to be Diamond I. It should be 60%+, especially considering how often I shit on the enemy mid.

Who is TaliyahJan 5, 20171 votes

mages lose to assassins/tanks assassins lose to tanks tanks lose to adc adc lose to mages/assassins

correct me if I'm wrong but that's usually how it works, no?

YennJan 5, 20172 votes

{quoted}

mages lose to assassins/tanks assassins lose to tanks tanks lose to adc adc lose to mages/assassins

correct me if I'm wrong but that's usually how it works, no?

It's fine that an assassin can kill a mage 1v1, it's not fine that the ability to kill a mage 1v1 completely fucks over the outcome of the entire game due to the state of bottom lane right now

RAT IN GAME UwU Jan 5, 20171 votes

{quoted}

It's fine that an assassin can kill a mage 1v1, it's not fine that the ability to kill a mage 1v1 completely fucks over the outcome of the entire game due to the state of bottom lane right now

that's what happens when people bitch long enough to make adcs weaker than assassins and mages, they become a buffet target for mobile assassin mid laners

Genocide VictimJan 5, 20171 votes

{quoted}

The fact that my Ziggs win rate has gone from 63% to 51% regardless of winning my lane 90% of the time, because every single game has an assassin mid and I can't follow it to bottom lane, where it inevitably participates in a 4/5-man dive and takes the first tower, because I can't out-push 4/5 champions.

And then I lose my own tower to those same 4/5 champions, because it takes a minimum of 3 bombs for me to clear the wave, meaning it's going down within two minion waves.

And then losing the game because the first team to get bottom lane's tower usually wins the game.

You're playing Ziggs in the wrong lane bro.

SGT Dingle BerryJan 5, 20171 votes

I ran into this issue a lot when I play mid as a squishy. I would ping MIA like crazy but the few times I tried to follow ended in disaster so I would just start pushing the lane to try and cost my enemy laner as much CS as possible. IDK why wards have to disappear so quickly, it's annoying AF trying to keep max wards out.

JorenciceJan 5, 20171 votes

I havent played at all this season. But i have to ask. Have supports jist forgotten how to ward?

Why are people even pulling off 4 man ganks.

They are so telegraphed it isnt funny.

Genocide VictimJan 5, 20172 votes

{quoted}

I havent played at all this season. But i have to ask. Have supports jist forgotten how to ward?

Why are people even pulling off 4 man ganks.

They are so telegraphed it isnt funny.

4man ganks doublekill bot lane under tower. Wards don't help with that.

Who is TaliyahJan 5, 201711 votes

Wards do not really help much against a 4 man gank. I play support often too, and believe me, if there is a lee sin, hecarim, vi etc. coming and in addition to that the midlaner, you know it's gg. People try to hug the turret when they get 4 man ganked, but it doesn't help. The only way to survive a 4man gank would be to abandon the turret right away, but let's be real, that is no solution.

SkiasJan 5, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Wards do not really help much against a 4 man gank. I play support often too, and believe me, if there is a lee sin, hecarim, vi etc. coming and in addition to that the midlaner, you know it's gg. People try to hug the turret when they get 4 man ganked, but it doesn't help. The only way to survive a 4man gank would be to abandon the turret right away, but let's be real, that is no solution.

This. They can easily cut off your retreat even if you see them much earlier. Recall time is too long to allow an escape. Even if you do, they kill your turret for free and get a massive amount of gold so they still win.

YennJan 5, 20172 votes

{quoted}

I havent played at all this season. But i have to ask. Have supports jist forgotten how to ward?

Why are people even pulling off 4 man ganks.

They are so telegraphed it isnt funny.

At mid, I need a minimum of three wards down. This isn't feasible or possible for me to do alone early game. At bottom, they need a minimum of three wards down, as well.

In total, we need at least six wards down at the same time for me to safely follow. This is extremely unrealistic in the early game, and for me to have the path to bottom fully warded, I'm sacrificing all vision towards top.

Titanium70Jan 5, 20171 votes

What are you talking about?

You need 3 to have full controll playing red side - 3 playing blue side. If you're unable to push your lane. you can add +1 ward for both sides. But 6 is hilarious. The 'save' positions can easily be pinked by You and your JGL. The others require some efford to kept warded.

If the wards arent their for some reason. DONT FOLLOW! Warn your bot, push the tower - if you get the first tower in the process, wp! And if Bot gets 4 man ganked because JGL is TOP, river is not warded and mid is free to roam - well it's called a missplay and is punished accordingly.

SkiasJan 5, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I havent played at all this season. But i have to ask. Have supports jist forgotten how to ward?

Why are people even pulling off 4 man ganks.

They are so telegraphed it isnt funny.

Because wards are less effective than they have been in the past. We have a handful of champs that are vision immune, a few like GP that don't need to be there and the others are so fast, you can see them and you will still die because your paper turret shoots hopes and dreams. Riot is currently encouraging more diving, less safety, less strategy and more reflex skills. You need high damage to play.

1wolfpackJan 5, 20171 votes

if you wanna fallow ur opponent to bot lane you dont have to literally fallow them. you can take an alternate route if you took tp you can tp down or depending on the champion you playing use your skills to jump/tumble/dash over walls to get there faster. or you can use a combo of missing pings/back pinging bot + "mid Mia" "care bot" in ally chat and not fallow at all. I cant stress this enough but u should use both pings and type in chat cause people dont pay attention,

EschetonJan 5, 20171 votes

Wards allow the Toplaner to Tp behind them. Then all you need is either jungle or mid coming. Or a Toplaner that can just clean up the sloppily forced towerdive.

iTaLenTZJan 5, 20171 votes

And this my friend is why old Malzahar was such an important champ for me and the reason why I can't play him any more. As a midlaner I was able to fucking help and protect my teammates lanes and I could roam and be a serious threat to the enemy jungler instead of being a sitting duck hoping my junglers escorts me to botlane or toplane.

Maximum MordeJan 5, 20171 votes

There are a couple champion exceptions but for the most part you are right.

Your Best case scenario is wrong though. Actual best case scenario - you ping the shit out of your MIA, and your own jungler is close to bot reinforcing for 3v4 turret dive which can actually come out as a win for your team depending on comp. Then you either followed from mid to clean up, arriving in time for dragon/bot first blood tower, or grabbed their mid lane turret for turret fb.

This best case scenario is a fairy tale that never happens though. My jungler is always off farming top side jg toad/krugs.

Top lane is still an island.

GULAG 4 UJan 5, 20171 votes

Yasuo doesn't quite 100-0 people, and he is still good.

Kirius DarkJan 5, 20171 votes

Swain is working just fine and doesnt straight burst people from full to dead. Quas even used him a lot to get to rank 1

YennJan 6, 20171 votes

This entire conversation is dumb, Twisted Fate virtually never builds RoA. It's usually Ludens + Lichbane for unavoidable gold cards, and yes, he doesn't exactly 100 to 0, but he can 100 to 10 after 2-3 items, and then finish you with one or two more autos. It's close enough.

His combo at only 200 AP + Lichbane is about 1400 damage (not including Ignite).

Nameless VoiceJan 6, 20171 votes

The other reason is that often it feels like your job as a mid-laner is to try to deal with the enemy's fed Vayne or Twitch, who have got fed because their team camped bot more than your team did.

If you can't 100-0% them instantly, they often blow up your entire team before anyone can kill them.

YennJan 7, 20171 votes

This is so fucking dumb. I'm literally forced to play an assassin or burst caster mid, otherwise I'm forced to watch my team lose the game as the enemy mid roams to bottom for a 4-man gank while I can't follow.