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FYI: Critbased adc's are still the best lategame scaling champs and therefore shouldn't be buffed

iTaLenTZ··93 votes·19,594 views

The adc patch was very succesful in my opinion. The fact they aren't performing well at the moment has a lot of causes that isn't directly tied to their kit, base damage or items.

  • They are the natural predator of tanks and tanks have been overnerfed and hardly see play now or just build full damage.
  • Their natural predators the assasins have received several buffs for several patches now
  • Supports got nerfed
  • Turrets got nerfed and Baron is weak. Adc's are no longer needed to take objectives.
  • Snowball is out of control: The game is already decided before the crit based adc got time to collect his items and scale into lategame

So yes, in an environment where the champs they counter don't get played and the meta is focused on early game and objective control it is obvious crit based champs won't do well. Buffing them would be terrible because it would mean to go back to square one. They would either scale faster or become better in early game and become stronger than assasins etc.

I would rather see indirect buffs that aslo improve the overall gameplay like reduce snowballing, buff towers and buff tanks so crit based adc's have a place in the game again rather than straightup buffing them and going back to square one regarding adc's.

edit: Instead of buffing tanks the amount of true damage in the game should be adressed and rageblade

111 Comments

Eedat15 votes

FYI: Critbased adc's are still the best lategame scaling champs and therefore shouldn't be buffed

Nope, WRONG.

What does the actual data say? The top 5 winrate ADCs in games that go past 40 minutes are (in order):

Caitlyn Kaisa MissFortune Draven Jhin

http://na.op.gg/champion/caitlyn/statistics/adc http://na.op.gg/champion/kaisa/statistics/adc http://na.op.gg/champion/missfortune/statistics/adc http://na.op.gg/champion/draven/statistics/adc http://na.op.gg/champion/jhin/statistics/adc

So in reality, there is ONE true crit based ADC in the top 5 of lategame scaling ADCs. Please do basic fact checking before posting things so easily disproven

I illustrate7 votes

{quoted}

Nope, WRONG.

What does the actual data say? The top 5 winrate ADCs in games that go past 40 minutes are (in order):

Caitlyn Kaisa MissFortune Draven Jhin

http://na.op.gg/champion/caitlyn/statistics/adc http://na.op.gg/champion/kaisa/statistics/adc http://na.op.gg/champion/missfortune/statistics/adc http://na.op.gg/champion/draven/statistics/adc http://na.op.gg/champion/jhin/statistics/adc

So in reality, there is ONE true crit based ADC in the top 5 of lategame scaling ADCs. Please do basic fact checking before posting things so easily disproven

4 of those adcs are crit based. also the only reason draven and mf are up there is because true damage is being busted and support changes havent gone through yet to make them easier to kill cough cough draven. crit adcs are now in a reasonable place but since that happened, now every other class is overtuned and crazy. bruisers do too much dmg with conqueror, tanks arent tanky and do more damage than they should, assassins are deleting people faster than ever with NO risk(and are starting to not fall off late game), supports provide a little too much of everything, and the only good objectives on the map are rift herald and infernal drake. and WHY is tryndamere 2 shotting EVERYONE??lol

iTaLenTZ11 votes

{quoted}

Nope, WRONG.

What does the actual data say? The top 5 winrate ADCs in games that go past 40 minutes are (in order):

Caitlyn Kaisa MissFortune Draven Jhin

http://na.op.gg/champion/caitlyn/statistics/adc http://na.op.gg/champion/kaisa/statistics/adc http://na.op.gg/champion/missfortune/statistics/adc http://na.op.gg/champion/draven/statistics/adc http://na.op.gg/champion/jhin/statistics/adc

So in reality, there is ONE true crit based ADC in the top 5 of lategame scaling ADCs. Please do basic fact checking before posting things so easily disproven

That doesn't necessarily disprove anything I say. I am talking about damage not winrate. There can be a lot of other factors that determine why they don't win games that last more than 40m. When you get shit on for 35 minutes and only the last 5 minutes you outscaled the opponent it might very well be too late to still win that game. Team morale might be very low and, people giving up and it can already be the case that you are 1 or 2 inhibs behind and the opponent is just waiting for Baron or Elder to spawn to finish the game. However you still potentially deal the most damage. That is what I am talking about. Most damage lategame doesn't equal lategame winrate when your early and midgame is bad in a snowball heavy meta.

Krytoric3 votes

{quoted}

Nope, WRONG.

What does the actual data say? The top 5 winrate ADCs in games that go past 40 minutes are (in order):

Caitlyn Kaisa MissFortune Draven Jhin

http://na.op.gg/champion/caitlyn/statistics/adc http://na.op.gg/champion/kaisa/statistics/adc http://na.op.gg/champion/missfortune/statistics/adc http://na.op.gg/champion/draven/statistics/adc http://na.op.gg/champion/jhin/statistics/adc

So in reality, there is ONE true crit based ADC in the top 5 of lategame scaling ADCs. Please do basic fact checking before posting things so easily disproven

downvoted for being right POGGERS. God the boards are an actual joke LOL

Eedat1 votes

Gotta keep the trash circlejerk moving

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Scuffproof11 votes

I agree with everything except buffing Tanks. Tanks are still one of the most op classes atm and buffing them would make it even more so that only ADCs are allowed to deal damage to them.

The current problem for Crit ADCs is that they're only good lategame when there usually is no lategame anymore. The best way to address that is buffing tower health.

iTaLenTZ12 votes

{quoted}

I agree with everything except buffing Tanks. Tanks are still one of the most op classes atm and buffing them would make it even more so that only ADCs are allowed to deal damage to them.

The current problem for Crit ADCs is that they're only good lategame when there usually is no lategame anymore. The best way to address that is buffing tower health.

On op.gg there is only 1 tank with a 50%+ winrate and that is Malphite and that is because he is super easy to play with a very impactfull ult. Conqueror and the scuttle changes have forced tanks out of toplane and jungle. On top of that Rageblade+Lifesteal on Xin, Yi, Shyvana etc are very strong right now.

I illustrate7 votes

{quoted}

I agree with everything except buffing Tanks. Tanks are still one of the most op classes atm and buffing them would make it even more so that only ADCs are allowed to deal damage to them.

The current problem for Crit ADCs is that they're only good lategame when there usually is no lategame anymore. The best way to address that is buffing tower health.

actually, the main issue with tanks is that riot reduced their tankiness and upped their damage. if they could revert this and make true damage not so easily accessible then tanks would be in a great spot again

Yets424020 votes

What is depressing is that they've already removed core defensive stats or gutted them into non-viability.

Tanks used to have HP + Resistances (that actually fucking mattered, armor is a serious fucking joke and is simply NEVER WORTH THE GOLD ON ANY CHAMPION EXCEPT FOR MALPHITE) + HP Regen + Dodge + AS Slows + Crit Damage Reduction + AA damage reduction.

Of those stats, Tanks effectively only have HP and. . . um . . . Tabi? Magic resist is still good, but not relevant here.

It used to be 2+ members of the team would go FH (when it slowed AS by literally twice as much as now, and gave more armor for a lower cost) now I can't remember the last time I've seen a single person buy it. Cold Steel, or rather, the passive it replaced before it was named, was a 20% ms and attack speed slow, not is a 10% as slow alone [which was somewhat recently buffed back to 15% at least, but it now has a shorter duration] Randuin's active used to be a four second AoE movement and attack speed slow of equal value. Now the AS slow is entirely fucking gone, the duration is fucking cut in half (only 2 seconds vs 4) and its even a weaker slow than it used to be (55% instead of 60%) while the item gives less stats, and costs more.

HP regen is a joke, and tank items other than 'Mogs don't even have it any more at fucking all, except for item 3800 which then has next to no defensive stats to pair with that regen, but with its active it is easily the single best tank item in the game currently, which say a fuckton about how much tank items have been utterly fucking annihilated. Even if you have massive HP regen, its out of combat, like Ocean Dragon or Warmogs, and utterly useless in the fight which is the antithesis of how it used to be, with HP regen working for tanks to counter the lifesteal and spell vamp of damage classes. ADCs still treat tanks as mobile fountains or HP batteries due to rune alone, let alone actual lifesteal items (which, of course, just got systemic buffs across the board +5 AD and -100g for virtually all of them) but tanks no longer have in combat regen.

Oh, and then think of all the extra instances of true damage flooding in. Between IE and Conquerer, when I play a tank I die from between 45-75% true damage, even if the other team has no champions with innate true damage. Died to a Yi and Vayne the other day as a Nautilus, took 89% of my max hp in true damage, dying in 3.7 seconds. Sure they both had a rageblade, but I was doing well that game and had a full defensive build. Too bad my 300+ armor did literally fucking nothing, and my 4k hp + shield melted to over 1k post mitigation DPS from just two people.

amirreza21422 votes

when riot add 70 armor leveel 1 on aftershock nobody speaks , then people speak about 20% true dmg that we had in old runes as well

AirKingNeo3 votes

Riot never reduced the tankiness of tanks.

Removing the true damage would make tanks even more tanky than they already are.

3TWarrior3 votes

full-tank builds tend to have around 1000 less hp than before

AirKingNeo2 votes

and 100 more armor and multiplicative 20% damage reduction vs magic damage

KnulleFitte1 votes

Not too long ago riot started nerfing HP and buffing resistances. They have less Hp but more damage reduction

woodvsmurph1 votes

Which is now better ignored via...

  1. dealing hybrid damage with rageblade
  2. going ap adc kai'sa or similar
  3. improved last whisper items reducing TOTAL armor
  4. percentage hp damage such as bloodrazor
  5. conqueror
  6. sustain... seriously... sustain of damage dealers via lifesteal or runes or innate kit means that they basically no longer typically care about damage dealt to them unless it can 1-shot them. Like before a malphite ground slam or a cho'gath rupture landing would chunk a meaningful amount of their hp and they'd have to respect that damage. It became a race between the tank's higher hp bar but lower dps and the opponent's lower hp bar but better dps. Either side could win if they played it to their advantage and depending on point in the game. Now it's more often that the dps heavy champ doesn't give a crap about the chunk damage they might be up against from their tankier opponent. If it can't 1-shot them... they basically dps through it regardless of point in game or how well their opponent played and come out ahead. That's not healthy for the game. It's just as bad as when tank maokai could run up to an adc and 2 shot them while taking 0 damage.

To put this in another more simple to understand matter... If I double the armor on an army tank (irl) but quadruple the killing power of an rpg... it's an overall nerf to the army tank. Even if it got buffed... the buff doesn't matter and in the end it is weaker. That's kinda what we have here in league. Some stuff getting far overbuffed and it means that other stuff that could/would/should be in a good spot now ISN'T in a good spot... because something else got overbuffed to the point it just beats it even when it shouldn't. to the point that it's better in every situation or 99 out of 100 situations. That's kinda not healthy for the game.

woodvsmurph1 votes

Agreed. But their damage was upped to... waveclear better and to be able to fight back against bruisers and fighters (within reason). I'd argue some are a bit too strong in the latter category compared to how they should be in lane. And as for the former... this can easily be fixed. Take tanks' main waveclear ability(s) and cut the damage said ability(s) do to champs. Like you do 80 damage to champs with a spell but 120 damage to minions. This gives them the waveclear they need while not making it like the meta (quite awhile back now) where maokai could delete an adc while building full tank. Pretty simple fix. And it allows tanks to waveclear and minimize tower dive potential onto themselves by bruisers and fighters in lane. But also rewards fighters and bruisers who can force them to fight away from tower because the tank won't be able to trade back as much damage as they do now. Because w/o items... tanks were doing comparable dmg to that of bruisers or fighters... which had to be the case because they needed that base dmg on their spells in order to farm properly since... no bonus dmg to minions on their abilities. Thus changing that let's them farm better w/o being stupidly strong w/o items to fight against AND removing much of why we needed conqueror in the first place.

ZephyrDrake9 votes

Sure let's leave them to rot and be free wins

Mordepool35 votes

Yes. Might counterbalance 3 years of batshit broken status

ZephyrDrake21 votes

{quoted}

Yes. Might counterbalance 3 years of batshit broken status

Love biased as shit arguments like these since this type of people are the first ones to cry when their role/champion gets nerfed

dunder kill21 votes

3 years? It wasnt even 1 since the Lethality Meta last year lol. Back when crit ADCs were considered (and were) complete trash tier

Yets424014 votes

ADCs have been systemically over fucking powered since the end of Season 5, which was. . . oh huh, how a fucking bout that, three years ago.

dunder kill14 votes

Hmmm ADCs have been overpowered ever since they starting hyperbuffing the supports like three years ago.....weird.

You also may want to read the context. We are discussing crit ADCs

GayFluffyUnicorn3 votes

Yes and crit adcs have been ridiculous since s6.

dunder kill4 votes

Did you just not read the conversation at all or are you willingly ignoring it?

VICHEL CHAOS3 votes

That is exactly where the meme of "ADC in 2017 LUL" got created from right? From such an overpowered status that they were...

Critmaster Garen4 votes

[{quoted}](name=VICHEL CHAOS,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2lv5wuLt,comment-id=000100000003,timestamp=2018-06-11T11:14:44.451+0000)

That is exactly where the meme of "ADC in 2017 LUL" got created from right? From such an overpowered status that they were...

the game is literally in the same position as back when that meme was generated. the average games are not quite as crazy short and snowbally, but close.

adc arent too weak. the game simply snowballs too fast for them to scale.

this time riot needs to do the right thing, and instead of knee jerk buffing adc and then their entire item pool, they need to reduce snowballing and increase game times back to 35 minutes on average.

this gives crit marksmen a chance to scale, and the problem solves itself.

as far as bruisers and mages on bot lane goes. their viability as duo lane carries should be regarded as a positive development. it was about time that bot lane finally sees some champion diversity.

woodvsmurph1 votes

Agreed; however, they should also look to flatten (not completely, but slightly) the power curve of adc's. As in - improved early but not to where you can't play a melee top or a mage or assassin mid - and decreased late so that other roles can compete for being the carry late game too if played properly.

It shouldn't be... you get a bow; your opponent gets a handgun (early). You get a rifle, they get a rifle (mid). They get an assault rifle and a trench, you get an ac 130 gunship and a tank (late). But that's kinda more akin to how it is for an adc.

Like I said before this adc pair of patches... instead of pushing their late game outscaling more... Riot should make them more competitive throughout the early/mid game and reduce their competitive advantage late. They don't need the exact SAME power curve as other champs/roles... but it shouldn't be so far off whack that they're either unplayable due to game ending in 20 nor unkillable due to game lasting until they're full build and them having such superior damage, safety, etc. late. They can be slightly weaker early and somewhat better late w/o having to make it so damn extreme that they're either useless or the SOLO DECIDER/damage source in the game. That's what these 2 patches SHOULD have done.

BestPudgeNA7 votes

{quoted}

Sure let's leave them to rot and be free wins

Only ADC mains could say a subclass of like 8-10 champs with 40% playrate is "rotting"

ADCs having a brain in the current year LUL

Cait Main4 votes

When you only have 17 champs to pick and lanes like top have 51, I'm not surprised adc's have higher pick rates.

potchiker9 votes

Holy shit, this adc hate is going too far

DigitalExile4 votes

{quoted}

Holy shit, this adc hate is going too far

There will always be hate amongst 99% of these low elo experts who make posts like these

Sex With Annie8 votes

Imagine if your champ wasn't allowed to be fun until the game is pretty much already over

Late Game Kayle2 votes

Kayle

My Waifu Vanilla3 votes

Still spikes faster than crit adcs and doesn't actually have a garbage early game proportional to the competition. Kayle is "weak" until like level 5. She can't 1v9 after that but she at least goes EVEN in most match ups barring things like LeBlanc.

Elohaven6 votes

I agree but here's a note:

  • Crit-based ADCs SHOULD be stronger than assassins late-game in damage. Their whole purpose is to dish out a large portion of DPS.
  • Crit-based ADCs lost significant damage with the removal of RFC+Shiv+200% critical damage synergy as now they deal 150% critical strike damage to targets. 50% less is significantly less DPS
My Waifu Vanilla4 votes

B-b-b-b-but all the math on the boards while the crit changes were on pbe saying the IE change was a buff!

Saibbo6 votes

lategame

Nice joke

RocketRelm2 votes

Snowball is out of control: The game is already decided before the crit based adc got time to collect his items and scale into lategame

I think the OP noticed that.

Smitty Manjensen5 votes

Support were OP beyond measure, they could heal you and shield the fuck out of you, better blame adcs. I can imagine support players got triggered when their shield bullshit got nerfed on the pbe, which BTW isn't enough.

GinormousVner1 votes

Look at OPs match history.

He's a support/top main. Shocker

Smitty Manjensen2 votes

{quoted}

Look at OPs match history.

He's a support/top main. Shocker

No wonder then, didn't actually check his history, just wrote the truth basically.

Eternal Torment5 votes

The fact they aren't performing well at the moment has a lot of causes one reason

The game is too snowbally for them to even hope for a lategame where their crits start to scale. The only problem crit has it that it takes too long proportionally to how long games are typically played.

if games by standart would go 10 minutes longer, crit would be on the verge of being perfectly balanced, basically how it's always been before the late times of season 7 and this damage-fuckfiesta we call season 8

Critmaster Garen5 votes

op should also put the itemization changes on the list, and that adc mains havent learned to adapt their build pathes yet.

for one year straight, building either item 3031 item 3094 item 3087 or throwing a item 3124 into this build and calling it "on hit meta" was the most optimal build path for every adc.

even fucking Vayne who had item 3153 as her core item for most of her existence, was basically playing around assassinating enemies with crit builds, and didnt bother with a bork anymore.

now the item pathes arent quite as obvious. they still havent learned in which cases to rush item 3086 item 3031 (and in which order to build the components) when to build item 3153 first and when to rush item 3095

its been one single patch so far. people are still figuring out shit.

most adc mains basically have to relearn the game on a basic level, when it comes to decision making on items and build pathes, because previously there was no decision making.

Cait Main3 votes

The issue I have with crit ADC's is how their kits felt balanced around crit chance.

Ashe literally doesnt crit and yet now her crit chance is more impotant because of item 3031 changes.

Caitlyn Headshots scale off of crit chance and crit modifiers.

Xayah Blade call scales off of crit chance.

Kindred Mounting Dread scales off of crit chance and modifiers.

All these abilities feel like they were not accounted for with the crit changes leading to weird power trophs that are easily exploited.

I don't think marksmen are unplayable but some of the changes feel like they didn't consider how all champions would be affected and the earlier spiking compensation feels pretty lackluster when the plan is to wait for 40 minutes to be relevant.

Bern5 votes

Scaling means literally nothing if you can't get there.

And crit adcs scale pretty abysmally on realistic gold incomes and backs.

Regardless of the state of the game, the way a crit AD needs to build to be effective can't be built, and crit ADs come online at shitty times relative to the power curve of everyone else in the game. You simply cannot play for that late in League of Legends, regardless of the meta.

The biggest issue for crit ADs is honestly the price of zeal items. Stormrazor is a really good first item spike for old IE-first champs that don't like BoRK, but your power curve nosedives the second you try to buy a zeal item because they're so goddamn shitty now (and there's literally nothing else to buy). Zeal items were cheap previously because they're legitimately awful for damage by themselves; now they're still awful by themselves, but also awful with other items because of the price hit. Stormrazor>zeal item basically tickles for the amount of gold you have to sink into getting it. It's stupid. Meanwhile, anyone who can dodge buying zeal items is alright.

I find it pretty funny, because the 8.8 MSI meta was rageblade carries and ezreal. Then we nerfed... crit ADCs. ...And the meta is now rageblade carries and Ezreal, with Lucian added in because of new Essence Reaver (and maybe, rarely, lethality carries in solo queue).

Nice meme.

Kantan4 votes

late game in 2k18 LUL

VICHEL CHAOS3 votes

Well, they do fine once they get their tiems. The problem is that htey take too long to get there.

Your argument is vain since from what you say, it can be extrapolated that as long as they are the best at the supreme late game it is fine if they take however necessary to get there, which is false. Imagine if crit items cost 10K each, crit ADCs would still be the absolute best once they got their items, but getting there would be such a burden that it is not worth it. This is the problem that they are at right now, they do not have a chance to get to their items before they get overrun.

It is not a great design philosophy to leave a whole subsection of marksmen in the gutter for a long period of time.

Pika Fox3 votes

Them being the best lategame doesnt mean they shouldnt be buffed.

Hammermancer1 votes

Honestly I don't miss adcs

like half of the toxicity on a team would come from an adc who was slightly behind or something, blaming his support, blaming jg, blaming mid

pinging question marks if you didn't get a kill on someone

seriously I don't miss adcs, I'd rather just have another lane for literally any other class

lil koda3 votes

so, you had toxic adcs, and riot only nerfed crit adc's, and people are still playing adc, so there for the change took away all adc's from you? you still have adcs like wtf are you on about

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