If given the chance would you be fine with a Pantheon rework?

kJs·Oct 8, 2015·5 votes·1,519 views

There's not really anything wrong with his kit. He's relatively balanced that he's not broken or OP or UP, he's in a great spot. His kit is really easy and boring though, aside from his ultimate. This post has nothing to do with balance changes, just a more interesting gameplay for Pantheon.

Just out of curiosity, would you be okay with a Pantheon rework aimed at making his kit more interactive and interesting but keeping essentially the same power? Also, in the ideal scenario, Riot listens to the Pantheon mains.

36 Comments

GryphiosOct 8, 20155 votes

I'd really prefer they leave Pantheon alone. Not every champion needs to have a mechanically complex kit to be interesting to play. From the way I see it, playing LoL involves three different tiers of skill: mechanical, tactic and strategic.

Mechanical skill is what most people think of when they think of skill. It's basically the twitch play/timing aspect of the game; last hitting, landing skill shots, leading targets, comboing abilities, etc. Having champions that take mechanical skill to play, or that have a lot of mechanical interactions, can be a lot of fun, but it's not the only way you can be skillful with a champ.

Tactical skill I think is more like laning and teamfighting. Positioning yourself well, pushing or freezing, and timing your aggression. Strategic skill is knowing when and how to secure objectives, having map awareness, and knowing how to work with your team. These are where I think the current Pantheon shines. His current kit is all-in; he doesn't have any escapes, so he needs to be particularly careful in planning his engagements, especially in teamfights. His ult also gives him a large strategic presence. Besides ganking, it's also useful for backdooring, split pushing, and a lot of other game strategies.

Leaving him as-is allows players to focus more on their tactical and strategic decision-making. This is why (imo at least), Twisted Fate and Shen also have relatively simplistic mechanical kits. It allows you to pay more attention to the macro aspects of the game than micro-managing your button presses.

KaishaOct 8, 20154 votes

Given how well the other reworks turned out...

RalanrOct 8, 20153 votes

Sion and Gangplank .

Really haven't heard many complaints about Gangplank.

kJsOct 9, 20151 votes

I would add Fiora . Even if she's volatile in that she snowballs really hard.

Blade of JusticOct 8, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Given how well the other reworks turned out...

Oh, you mean Cassiopeia Kassadin Ryze Mordekaiser Sion ?

JZPorkinsOct 8, 20153 votes

only if they rework him into a baker.

VeraskaOct 8, 20151 votes

My biggest issue is his kit fails on making you feel like a spartan warrior, kinda like old fioras kit poorly executed the fencer fantasy.

aside from his ultimate all of his abilities are targeted/1 dimensional so when you kill people it's more of a numerical reason then a skill reason

They made him a really good duelist early game but the targeted poke, stun, and channel ability that's duration is almost the entire stun more feels like his kit is doing the dueling FOR you if that makes any sense

Plus his theme has a pretty good base, spartan warrior, but that's it, most champions have more then 1 identity going into them these days ,and pantheon is JUST a spartan, nothing unique about his look, it'd be nice if we could flesh out mount targon soon.

So yeah I eagerly wait for a pantheon rework/visual update, make his character more interesting, make his kit more dynamic

kJsOct 8, 20151 votes

What do you think defines Pantheon, a Spartan Warrior?

Fiora's was excellently reworked, her Vitals passive really does the fantasy justice.

SSJTribeOct 8, 20151 votes

Agreed, it's the old "ball of stats" argument. Pantheon either has enough damage to kill you or he doesn't. Personally, I really dislike Pantheon for that reason, it's just like "oh noes here he comes." Stunned, jabjabjab, spear throw. ~yawn

WiegrafOfValorOct 8, 20151 votes

Only if he could ult more often and it becomes more of a utility skill rather than a powerhouse.

VeraskaOct 8, 20151 votes

Current pantheon is definitely defined by his power curve (which is kinda lame) and his ultimate (which has good gameplay moments)

What defines a spartan warrior to me is thriving in combat and using his spear and shield, so off the top of my head, a champions kit who would feel like that is a champion who changes combat patterns mid fight and is rewarded by fighting in the middle of the enemy team (which his current ult would enable)

So like he has his shield and spear, his Q would throw his spear and he'd only fight with his shield from then on, gaining a different tool on his Q while spearless that reinforces the shield fighter style

His W would do the same in reverse

Not sure what it'd be like if he cast aside both of them tho, it'd probably be and epic moment

I think he'd definitely be more agile while holding less weapons

Sorry I went on to talk about how I'd make a spartan champ more then what I thought was core on pantheon.

Throwing spears, bashing people with shields, and I bet block is something pantheon players love I think any changes could keep those but make them way more interesting

JoshehehOct 8, 20151 votes

maybe give him something akin to graves' passive? seems pretty fitting that he thrives in battle, but maybe give him bonus ad instead of armor/mr

RalanrOct 8, 20151 votes

But his current passive is so unique! Why not just make it scale with level in terms of what he can block?

kJsOct 8, 20151 votes

I know I'm stealing current ideas here, but what if you make it semi-Fiora Vital. Like Pantheon can only block something coming from one direction. Though, one would need to put it in an ability and make it have stacks so you can still double block with it.

RalanrOct 8, 20151 votes

I had an idea where it scales throughout the game. First it only blocks autoattacks, at level 11 it will block empowered autoattacks (both damage (physical and magical) and extra effects like stuns or silences, and at level 16 it can block the damage of skill shots, but not there extra effects.

VeraskaOct 8, 20151 votes

{quoted}

maybe give him something akin to graves' passive? seems pretty fitting that he thrives in battle, but maybe give him bonus ad instead of armor/mr

Yea I could see that like, I never really understood why he was a glass cannon champ, if you gave him the functionality to build defense without losing out on damage I think that'd be a good direction

I got a champion concept for a earth mage, and then a yorick rework to finish working on that I wanna post on the boards, after them I'll probably try pantheon

A Loyal SupportOct 8, 20151 votes

make his Q and his stun a skill shot. The fact that he's so faceroll annoyed me into stop playing him. if thry make those changes, i can play him again.

RalanrOct 8, 20151 votes

Turning his Q into a skill shot would severely weaken him.

Though his W into a skill shot would be awesome.

A Loyal SupportOct 8, 20151 votes

high damage, targeted poke is cancerous (teemo's blinding dart for example). It'll only weaken him for people who aren't competent with skill shots. it'll be like a nidalee spear.

RalanrOct 8, 20151 votes

Nidelee's spear gains power as it travels.

SaiannaOct 8, 20151 votes

And then Stashu arrives from his 2 year vacations, picks Pantheon rework, fucks it up super bad.

Pantheon ends up with spammable Q and 2 worthless abilities that are meant just to make his spammable even more spammable, Stashu gets a rise and a bonus to his paycheck and all boards go ballistic on how badly Pantheon got reworked.

No thx. Bai.

RalanrOct 8, 20151 votes

I'm going to give my view on the points of complexity and theme. I'm not a high ranking player, my only support in this discussion is that I have over 40.1k mastery on Pantheon, but honestly anyone can reach rank 5 in a champion with enough time.

Complexity: Does Pantheon need to be complex? No, I don't mind him being simple I just believe he's a bit too straightforward and people hate that. I think his Q should stay as a targeted ability, but his W should be a skill shot/dash and they should change the active of his E. A skill shot W (short of like a dash in my mind, he propels himself forward in a given direction) would give him two things that would showcase more skillful play; an escape and pursue ability.

As for his E? I just think the passive fits while the active doesn't. If he stays in one spot for long in a team fight he'll end up being crushed. Yes he's a lane bully and falls off mid-late (or just late if he's fed), he's suppose to excel in the lane phase. But honestly how many people even like fighting lane bully champions? I don't like fighting Darius , before and after his rework. I don't have suggestions for his E active sadly, I just don't think it fits for him.

Theme: I don't think spartan should define him. Take , before his rework people (in my opinion, so I may be wrong) saw him as "Pirate McPirate" of league, and it seems people see Pantheon as "Spartan McSpartan" of league. Personally I'm fine with referencing the spartans (and a lesser extent 300, though I prefer just spartan) but I don't think that should define him. He's the paragon of his people, a tribe built around providing powerful warriors as mercenaries. Riot made Gangplank into, "In a city of people you don't want to meet in a dark alley, he's the guy they don't want to meet in a dark alley."

Look at Pantheon's ult, he comes down onto the battlefield like a meteor. Can you imagine seeing that in the middle of battle? Someone just drops down from the sky and proceeds to decimate the enemy. You should beware the skies if you war with Targon, beware the skies if you face the paragon of Rakkor. He's a damn master of the battlefield.

Personally I think he could use a Gangplank level rework. I'd like him to be less of a lane bully so he can scale better throughout the game and experiment with more build paths rather than capping on his early game power.

kJsOct 9, 20151 votes

TBH His Q Spear should be the skillshot and keep the W targetted because then there would be 1 less ability that can counter extreme mobility from champion like Yasuo and Kalista. I'd really like him to counter heavily mobile champions if his W isn't a target anymore though.

RalanrOct 9, 20151 votes

Having a spear skill shot would mess his laning phase up. There's nothing wrong with point and click. Gangplank's Q is point and click.

kJsOct 9, 20151 votes

I never said there was anything wrong with point and click, if you read my whole post you'd have read that it would be preferable for his W to still be point and click so that he can easily counter mobile champs. There's also nothing wrong with skillshots. I really don't think it would ruin his laning.

RalanrOct 9, 20151 votes

Minion waves blocking his spear.

kJsOct 10, 20151 votes

Not all skillshots have to disappear after hitting a target.

RalanrOct 10, 20151 votes

I fear that's the kind of skill shot they would inflict on Pantheon. He's a good lane bully because nothing is going to stop his poke.

You find something to stop his poke, he'll need a full rework to make him viable. He's already viable, though he could use an escape and pursue ability. I still think his E active doesn't really fit well with him.

kJsOct 10, 20151 votes

Well that's not the type of skillshot I had in mind. I was thinking of a 2100 projectile speed spear (still quite hard to dodge).

As I wrote in the OP, Pantheon is fine right now, quite balanced it's just that his kit, IMO, is really boring and easy aside from his ultimate.

RalanrOct 10, 20151 votes

His passive and ult are really the only abilities I like with Pantheon. Their the only ones that require much timing and placement.

I do agree with you on most regards.