Can we have an AP Jungle Item for Fid, Karth, Brand etc?

ArnoldSchwarzens··109 votes·5,168 views

All of these are kind of working in the Jungle, yet they really lack itemization. Fiddlesticks is horrible with Runeglaive, so is everyone else listed above. The only AP Champions that really profit from this item are those who autohit a lot. Another change that I'd love to see is Machete's burn also proccing off spells and not only autohits. Karthus and Fiddlesticks are champions that don't use autohits a lot or even at all, and one of Fiddlesticks biggest problems is his notorious slow clearing. Right now it seems like they have been totally forgotten by pretty much everyone, no posts about this is in the boards and no one of Riot is addressing this problem, at least that is what it seems like.

104 Comments

BeatzBoyFTW39 votes

Where the heck did Jungle Brand come from

Remlap12232 votes

Theoretically, it could work because the monster cap is actually really high and he has a stun.

That doesn't change the fact that his ganks suck and he has no sustain.

Karthus is a much better option IMO.

CubedJustice9 votes

It... works. You clear is horrible, but works, your ganks are moderately ok, but you're better off just not doing that.

RogueWill1 votes

Well... can't he go Cinderhulk then? isn't that item supposed to help with horrible clears?

Jungle Lux God1 votes

Cinderhulk helps with horrible clears. Runeglaive, on the other hand, solves your horrible clears.

Brand's clears combine top-tier clear speeds with awful sustain in the early game. Once Runeglaive is picked up those speeds translate into clearing a camp so fast you don't need sustain outside of Spell Vamp Quintessences.

IlIIllIIllIIlIl9 votes

So if you have horrible clear and ok ganks why even play him in jungle if he has no strong points in jungle...?

Jungle Lux God1 votes

His early clears are fast but have really low sustain. Once he gets Runeglaive clearing isn't a problem at all.

His ganks are insane when they work, but are extremely unreliable. He has tons of damage for ganks, and if he lands his stun he can easily force a kill with his laner. Ganking the duo lane also gives him the opportunity to deal tons of damage to two targets if he uses his ultimate, which is going to get a kill if he can afford to. The biggest weaknesses in his ganking is that he really needs to land his stun and that he isn't very mobile, both of which make getting that gank off hard.

IlIIllIIllIIlIl1 votes

so ,... you go from horrible clear , to fast clear, and from moderate ganks, to insane ganks. gotcha

ArnoldSchwarzens1 votes

I remember doing that back in the day when Spirit of the Spectral Wraith was around. His clear is not as bad as people think, his passive shreds camps and he has nice AOE. More of a fun jungler though, gotta admit.

Champion Skin1 votes

Spirit stone was so cheap and so strong (and the jungle was somewhat easier if I remember correctly) you could pretty much force any champion through the jungle if you wanted to

Vellich0r2 votes

Oh, the jungle was about 16 times easier

BroLane1 votes

{quoted}

Where the heck did Jungle Brand come from

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Khq0Q33MWLQ Probably this.

Saianna22 votes

How dare you asking for diversity?!

Just build devourer like everyone else and be quiet!

missinggrave8 votes

All hail the three hit proc and BORK junglers.

Eedat21 votes

one of Fiddlesticks biggest problems is his notorious slow clearing.

He shouldn't have a fast clear. He trades a fast clear for having probably the safest clear in the game. He doesn't even have to waste gold on health pots which artificially makes up for the slow clear as well.

RisenDarkKnight5 votes

Yeah but he's very mana hungry so if he loses blue buff he's screwed. Also his pre 6 ganks aren't very good since he has no gap closer. Flash fear is all he's got. Rek sai and xin zhao both also have good sustain, but both can gank really well lvl 2 or 3.

Demonwolf1 votes

although runeglaive gives you mana restoration on hit, so you'd just have to hit them after your drain is done channeling and you get mana back.

RisenDarkKnight1 votes

Oh I've never actually built runeglaive on him. I thought the consensus was it wasn't worth the gold?

Jungle Lux God2 votes

In my opinion, Runeglaive is worth the gold if you can afford having thousands of gold worth of mana regeneration.

However, with how Fiddlesticks casts his spells, he can't afford to use that mana regeneration because the mana regeneration is tied to that auto attack, and auto attacking will dramatically reduce Fiddlesticks' slow clear speeds unless he's clearing Raptors, where the AoE of Runeglaive's passive will greatly increase the clear speed on that camp specifically.

Demonwolf2 votes

As the other person said, it probably isn't the most cost efficient for fiddle, but considering the changes to machete items to give passive mana regen, and the mana on runeglaive proc against monsters, it isn't as if the item itself as none. On fiddle it isn't as effective because he can only really auto attack inbetween drains.

But i don't see why people are complaining about it being bad on Brand.

Silents4291 votes

You are ganking wrong Pre 6 if you are wasting flash. Your silence is long enough range to prevent them from escaping while you get close to use your fear.

Otherwise his 6+ ganks are insanely powerful.

RisenDarkKnight1 votes

I'm not saying you should flash, just that you never get in range to fear against competent people who ward.

Silents4291 votes

That applies to nearly every jungler ever. The trick is to gank when they don't know about it.

RisenDarkKnight3 votes

Not at all many junglers can gank extremely well after 6 (i.e. warwick, vi, amumu, sejuani, and fiddle too). Rek sai, lee sin, xin zhao, elise, jarvan, and gragas all have a pretty good chance of getting a kill pre 6 even in the lcs.

ltmetal12 votes

What I'd like to see:

Essence Drainer

item 3713 + item 3145 + 200g

50 AP 10% Cooldown Reduction 12% Spellvamp

Passive - Jungler: Deal 45 additional magic damage to monsters over 2 seconds and gain 10 Health Regen and 5 Mana Regen per second while under attack from neutral monsters. UNIQUE Passive - Essence Thief: Restores 1% to 4% of the damage dealt by spells as Mana. This effect increases based on missing Mana. Restores 100% bonus Mana against neutral monsters.

Second option I would also think is good for manaless casters who work in the jungle (e.g. Kennen Akali Zac Rumble Katarina ):

Netherstride

item 3713 + item 3113 + item 1052 + 115g

70 AP 5% Movement Speed

Passive - Jungler: Deal 45 additional magic damage to monsters over 2 seconds and gain 10 Health Regen and 5 Mana Regen per second while under attack from neutral monsters. UNIQUE Passive - Malice: Gain 10% movement speed for 2 seconds when hitting an enemy with a damaging spell. Kills grant 20% movement speed for 3 seconds.

I don't really expect these changes to happen, since the patch notes described the removal of the magus enchant as necessary for the sake of maintaining balance/meaningful weakness. But what I don't get is how AD junglers get to choose between Warrior and Devourer, deciding when to hit their power spikes or whether they want on-hit or AD spell scaling, and that is OK but two AP jungle enchants isn't.

EDIT: Made some number reductions, calculated using the gold efficiency of the old Magus enchant.

Sightless663 votes

But what I don't get is how AD junglers get to choose between Warrior and Devourer,

Eh. Realistically, almost no AD junglers actually have a choice. There are almost no champions where you actually can choose between having Warrior or Devourer. There is pretty much always one item that is better than the other for a given champion.

ltmetal1 votes

Aatrox Fiora MasterYi Nocturne Olaf RekSai Rengar Shaco Tryndamere Vi XinZhao are all textbook examples of champions who, although they may use one of the offensive enchants more effectively for more of the game, can pick Warrior or Devourer based off of when they want to hit power spikes. The number increases if you include champions who are off-meta junglers, like Jayce and Quinn , and increases again if you include champions who can decide between one or both of the AD enchants and Cinderhulk, like Shyvana and Udyr .

I think 11 champions is more champions than have ever been considered professionally viable in the jungle since LoL's conception.

Sightless661 votes

Realistically, most of those champions can't actually make that choice without sacrificing a lot. For pretty much every one of those except Nocturne, maybe Shaco (and I bet Shaco mains would tell me I'm an idiot for even considering it because I'm damn sure I haven't seen one build devourer), and maaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe rengar, there is one and only one enchantment that is absolutely the best choice in at least 95% of games, and often more. Seriously, I could make the choice to build the other jungle enchantment on each of those champions, but it would be the wrong decision in the vast, vast majority of games. Just as some examples, I'd never pick devourer over warrior on Rek'sai, Vi, Olaf (Cinderhulk if anything for him), and I'd never pick warrior over devourer on Xin, Trynd or Yi. Never. Not even once. It is the wrong decision. I'd compare it to building a ravenous hydra on an ADC, because that's actually exactly how wrong I consider the choice. It is technically possible, and it won't automatically lose you the game, but it is always worse than the alternative.

You're being way too generous when you say these champions have a real choice in their jungle enchantment. There a few who have that choice, but not nearly so many as you claim. The vast majority of AD junglers have a right choice and a wrong choice when they're considering devourer vs warrior.

increases again if you include champions who can decide between one or both of the AD enchants and Cinderhulk

Now that is a much better point, and I agree with you. There are a lot of champions who can opt between their offensive or cinderhulk and can legitimately make either work. Those champions have two options, and that's a valid argument.

Also, just for the record, Fiora counts as an off-meta jungler. I'm throwing her in with Jayce and Quinn.

KONO RUBICK DA2 votes

{quoted}

What I'd like to see:

Essence Drainer

item 3713 + item 3145 + 200g

60 AP 10% Cooldown Reduction 12% Spellvamp

Passive - Jungler: Deal 45 additional magic damage to monsters over 2 seconds and gain 10 Health Regen and 5 Mana Regen per second while under attack from neutral monsters. UNIQUE Passive - Essence Thief: Restores 1% to 4% of the damage dealt by spells as Mana. This effect increases based on missing Mana. Restores 100% bonus Mana against neutral monsters.

Second option I would also think is good for manaless casters who work in the jungle (e.g. Kennen Akali Zac Rumble Katarina ):

Netherstride

item 3713 + item 3113 + item 1052 + 115g

80 AP 10% Cooldown Reduction 5% Movement Speed

Passive - Jungler: Deal 45 additional magic damage to monsters over 2 seconds and gain 10 Health Regen and 5 Mana Regen per second while under attack from neutral monsters. UNIQUE Passive - Malice: Gain 10% movement speed for 2 seconds when hitting an enemy with a damaging spells. Kills grant 20% movement speed for 3 seconds.

I don't really expect these changes to happen, since the patch notes described the removal of the magus enchant as necessary for the sake of maintaining balance/meaningful weakness. But what I don't get is how AD junglers get to choose between Warrior and Devourer, deciding when to hit their power spikes or whether they want on-hit or AD spell scaling, and that is OK but two AP jungle enchants isn't.

that's good but you need to tune down some numbers

67chrome4 votes

Can we have an AP Jungle Item for Fid, Karth, Brand etc?

Mage strengths and weaknesses are obliterated pretty hardcore if they're allowed to jungle as well as a typical fighter. Especially because mage kits often combine the CC/lockdown/innitiation power of tanks, along with the burst/damage of assassins.

Most junglers have a trade-off with gank power in terms of CC or gank power in terms of damage. You just don't have that with most mages: and mages have the added safety of being ranged. Mages are also guaranteed to scale into an awesome team-fighter for no other reason than AoE, preventing them from falling off late-game where several fighters and assassins turn into a liability.

If there existed a mage jungle item for the likes of Fiddlesticks, Karthus, and Brand: there wouldn't be much of a reason to run anything other than a mage jungler. At the pro level, Fiddle was dominating the jungle scene prior to the AP jungle item being swapped out to what it is now.

Tails Doll12 votes

Fid, Karth and Brand dont fall in the category of "CC/lockdown/innitiation power of tanks, along with the burst/damage of assassins"

MalzaharAnyLane4 votes

You mean like Magus which the dumbshit itemization team removed from the game?

Krashino3 votes

Fid needs no help in the Jungle as long as he has that Fear, that Ult, that Drain, that Crow, That Fear, That Crow, That Fear, That Crow, That Drain, Dead, Dead, Dead, Dead, Dead, Dead, Dead, Dead.......

CubedJustice17 votes

Ah yes, the classic ult to clear wolves.

Champion Skin4 votes

Ahh the times when you are Nunu/Fiddle and stuck clearing a huge wave... so tempting to just use ult...

Ancestor0076 votes

Meanwhile Karthus Wait, how did i get so much gold from walking?

RespectPlus3 votes

80 AP 10% CDR Unique Passive: When you kill a large or epic monster, 50% of the mana you used to kill him is restored.

Rito Pls

HentRex2 votes

item 3145 50ap 12%spellvamp(doubled spellvamp vs "monsters")

chide da jungler3 votes

Fid has been nerfed too many times. He is a poor-man's amumu now

Demonwolf1 votes

I kind of wonder why nobody does AP amumu anymore

Jungle Lux God3 votes

Having Machete's burn passive work on spell hits isn't a good idea.

The burn passive applying on spell hits dramatically increases the clear speeds for a lot of champions, but clearly favors a lot of the AD casters that are already good in the jungle. Champions with slower clears will get faster clears, but not relative to those with fast clears.

Moving on to having a new AP item, we need an item that better caters to the needs of AP champions as a whole in the mid-game, rather than catering to a certain subset of AP champions in the mid-game. We cannot keep Runeglaive with the new AP item because then the entire AP jungling champion pool will be decided on which item is better.

We also cannot give it a passive that is super useful outside of of the jungle because it will either get abused in lane (like Cinderhulk and Runeglaive were) or it will decide the entire jungle champion pool (like Runeglaive does now). That passive also cannot be a fix-all item for AP jungling concerns like Runeglaive is. It makes nearly every AP champions' jungle clears so fast that clearing isn't a unique strength after Runeglaive is purchased, and restricts the clearing strengths of every champion into the early game. It also solves mana problems extremely well, which is actually really important for jungle diversity, and therefore it is necessary for that to stay.

How do we fix these problems?

We need to give the item good enough stats that any AP champion can afford to buy it without being gimped too hard in terms of the statline. We also need to give the item a jungle-exclusive mana regeneration passive that is as strong as Runeglaive's passive, but is also more universal for more champions. Runeglaive's biggest strength is that its mana regeneration is distributed on a need-by-need basis, and that needs to stay.

Stats can be tuned as needed, so I'll only share my idea of a passive.

Passive: Every time you spend mana, gain some kind of buff, stacking up to three times. Auto attacking a neutral monster consumes the buff to restore 8% missing mana per stack consumed (note: this restores 8% three times, not 24% missing mana). Attacking a champion removes all stacks.

What this passive does is that it is basically an expanded version of Runeglaive's mana regen passive for the jungle that favors a larger subset of AP champions, which ranges from:

-Champions that would want to combo spells tighter than Runeglaive allows (eg. Malzahar) -Champions that would want to auto attack less than Runeglaive allows (eg. Fiddlesticks) -Champions that have persistent AoE effects that Runeglaive doesn't apply on (eg. Swain) -Champions that spam their spells faster than Runeglaive allows (eg. Karthus) -Champions who already fit with Runeglaive's current mana-restoring casting paradigm (eg. Brand)

What do you guys think of these ideas?

Fiveofswords2 votes

just use cinderhulk with fiddle karthus seems like a somewhat silly jungler but ok use cinderhulk with him. Brand jungle? thats really bad.

Fiddles clear isnt so bad. Its not great but its not so bad that it would be a problem or anything. PPl still use fiddle in jungle. I think its pretty obvious that cinderhulk would eb the choice for him. magic pin with aoe is quite logical, and you want him to live long enough for you to ult into the enemy team...at least not get blown up before you can zonyas.

Renaille5 votes

{quoted}

just use cinderhulk with fiddle karthus seems like a somewhat silly jungler but ok use cinderhulk with him. Brand jungle? thats really bad.

Fiddles clear isnt so bad. Its not great but its not so bad that it would be a problem or anything. PPl still use fiddle in jungle. I think its pretty obvious that cinderhulk would eb the choice for him. magic pin with aoe is quite logical, and you want him to live long enough for you to ult into the enemy team...at least not get blown up before you can zonyas.

The choice for fiddle is not upgrading a machete all the way.

Fiveofswords1 votes

well sure but we are assumign you upgrade it eventually....he has other more important items but what...does he jsut sell the machete? when you get around to upgrading it im thinking choose cinderhulk.

CubedJustice4 votes

Late game, you've probably sold it already.

WolfBV1 votes

{quoted}

well sure but we are assumign you upgrade it eventually....he has other more important items but what...does he jsut sell the machete? when you get around to upgrading it im thinking choose cinderhulk.

Looked up his passive. Yeah, cinder hulk and his passive synergize. Cinder hulk does magic damage and applies the passive continuously.

HentRex1 votes

They have tried. Remember runeglaive before they reworked it? Got abused by Ezreal mid. They are trying to figure something out for ap junglers. Just haven't found anything that won't be broken for a laner to use.

Rozzeta1 votes

I think Ezreal is the sole responsible for the death of many good Jungler items, thanks to his Q dealing on hit effects.

HentRex1 votes

Although I've seen some nifty thoughts on here. Couple of people(me included) have saiditem 3145 My idea was 50 Ap 1215% spellvamp Doubled when damaging "Monsters" I had said 12 but think maybe changed it to 15 Ez isn't much into spell vamp so I think this one might work. And even if people took it into lane minions they wouldn't get the affect.

Champion Skin1 votes

Welcome back Spirit of the Spectral Wraith (original version)

Recipe: Spirit Stone (jungle item) + Hextech Revolver

Item cost: 2400g Combine cost: 400g

+40 Ability Power +10 Mana Regen per 5 seconds Unique Passive: +20% Spell Vamp Unique Passive: +10% Cooldown Reduction Unique Passive – Butcher: Damage dealt to monsters increased by 25%.

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