"tanks are so bad after runes changes"

YoungFarmer·Nov 11, 2017·10 votes·1,659 views

Really because almost all of the tanks have had an increase in winrate since the new runes came out. Personally I am having great success with, leona support and thresh support. Since the new runes were released:
our fabulous boy is up 1% winrate went up 1% braums winrate went up 2.5% winrate went up like 6% winrate decreased slightly. winrate went up 5% winrate went up 1% winrate went up 4% winrate went up 3% winrate slightly decreased winrate went up 5% Winrate slightly increased Winrate went up 3%

Like IDK where you guys are getting your info from, im assuming its because you're playing a tank and getting rekt, but statistically most tanks are better now after the new runes.

51 Comments

ErrastasNov 11, 20173 votes

I mean I'm winning on Leo because I'm running damage runes and buying bruiser items instead of tank/support items.

YoungFarmerNov 11, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I mean I'm winning on Leo because I'm running damage runes and buying bruiser items instead of tank/support items.

too each his own but leos highest winrate is with the resolve tree.

ErrastasNov 12, 20171 votes

I didn't mean for that to come across as I can't win with the resolve tree. The resolve tree while not as tanky as I'd like it to be, is still good. I'm just finding precision paired with the burst tree more fun on Leo.

RalanrNov 11, 20172 votes

Honestly I don’t feel the keystones themselves are bad. Arguably the only thing that’s bad in the resolve tree is the resistance options feel lack luster and you only pick them as reactionary.

Otherwise imo it’s not entirely bad.

Though question: how many of those tanks are using the resolve tree? Minus Mundo, Hecarim, and Cho who are not tanks.

YoungFarmerNov 11, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Honestly I don’t feel the keystones themselves are bad. Arguably the only thing that’s bad in the resolve tree is the resistance options feel lack luster and you only pick them as reactionary.

Otherwise imo it’s not entirely bad.

Though question: how many of those tanks are using the resolve tree? Minus Mundo, Hecarim, and Cho who are not tanks.

Quite a few are using grasp, I'v been using the one where CC gives you MR and Armour and then makes an explosion around me. I love it.

RalanrNov 11, 20171 votes

Aftershock is so fun on Poppy.

YoungFarmerNov 11, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Aftershock is so fun on Poppy.

after shock is a great keystone.

ApocalypsicNov 11, 20172 votes

Keystones are awful for bruisers, fervor removal and anti tank options being taken away feel fucking terrible.

Critmaster GarenNov 11, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Honestly I don’t feel the keystones themselves are bad. Arguably the only thing that’s bad in the resolve tree is the resistance options feel lack luster and you only pick them as reactionary.

Otherwise imo it’s not entirely bad.

Though question: how many of those tanks are using the resolve tree? Minus Mundo, Hecarim, and Cho who are not tanks.

i find the keystones are the greatest weakness of the resolve tree. at least for many fighters.

grasp is just anoying to work with, even when you can utilize it, and its incredibly hit or miss in usefulness depending on the lane matchup youre playing. aftershock is great but so conditional that only half of the fighter pool can pick it up. and guardian isnt an option since it requires allies nearby and doesnt support fighters well.

most of the other runes in the tree are decent to really good. unflinching is meh, demolish is godlike, font of life is situational. iron skin/mirror shell are garbage because of their trigger conditions, conditioning is decent.

overgrowth is crazy good on health stackers, revitalize and second wind are decent depending on the situation.

its really the keystones that give me a headache.

RalanrNov 11, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2az2jigh,comment-id=00030002,timestamp=2017-11-11T21:01:13.829+0000)

i find the keystones are the greatest weakness of the resolve tree. at least for many fighters.

Personally, I think that was intended. I know fighters love to have durability as well, but I think Riot wanted to make Fighters focus more on their offense with defense as an afterthought. Now off the top of my head, I can't think of any other keystones in other pages (beyond phase rush I guess) that help contribute to fighters. I guess maybe some stuff in precision, but that's lacking.

Fighters, bruisers, and juggernauts really are having a tough time in rune diversity. I think Riot is aware of this and has plans for dealing with it, but are trying to be careful as bruisers can break the game very easily when they suddenly have great synergy.

That's not to say other classes cannot break the game. Fighters just have the most exploitable weaknesses in return for having the most spread out stats (they are durable but not to tank level, they do damage but not to assassin level. They are a middle ground of the two classes imo despite the archetype of the fighter class being as old as dirt). So when they can bypass their weaknesses easily or to the point where it hardly matters (like having enough high stats to simply laugh) then they start becoming overbearing and throw other classes out of their lanes.

IMO fighter balance is a lot like ADC balance, with the key difference being that Riot knows what they want the ADC to be picked for in games. Fighters are like secondary carries, which I don't see getting much support. They don't have the threat removal of assassins nor the safety and teamwide power of mages. They can't become more durable than tanks because then you'll pick them over tanks and thus we get a constant back and forth between tank or fighter dominance (as we had recently).

The only thing I believe fighters are the best at is the 1v1 splitpush. Even with AD assassins having better escapes, a fighter can usually take a tower faster thanks to auto resets that are common amongst them, and they have the sustain to survive the 1v1, win, and keep hitting the tower so more of the enemy team is forced to deal with it while an assassin in an ideal scenario is supposed to run away.

And this is just my opinion.

LankPantsNov 11, 20171 votes

The first non-keystone tier of Resolve is pure garbage only rivalled by the second tier of Inspiration. The second and third tiers are only better because of Conditioning and Overgrowth. Out of the 9 non-keystone runes in Resolve 7 of them suck major dick, that's why secondary Resolve is so rare.

YoungFarmerNov 11, 20171 votes

{quoted}

The first non-keystone tier of Resolve is pure garbage only rivalled by the second tier of Inspiration. The second and third tiers are only better because of Conditioning and Overgrowth. Out of the 9 non-keystone runes in Resolve 7 of them suck major dick, that's why secondary Resolve is so rare.

Wait how is demolish or font of life bad exactly?

LankPantsNov 11, 20172 votes

Neither give durability, which is what tanks actually want from their tree.

YoungFarmerNov 12, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Neither give durability, which is what tanks actually want from their tree.

yah but then the third and fourth tier do give durability. In the domination runes the 3rd and 4th tier do not give more damage directly.

LankPantsNov 12, 20171 votes

Eyeball collection does directly give damage and with the exception of Relentless Hunter the 3rd tiers do give damage indirectly, Ingenious by making items like Tiamat CDR and Ravenous by simply keeping you alive longer.

Comparatively the first tier of Resolve actually does nothing at all to help your own durability. Tenacity doesn't actually help you live longer, it's more a damage boosting stat for bruisers since it stops DPS from being disrupted. Demolish is entirely offensive in use, I don't even know why this rune exists or is in the Resolve tree. Font of Life only heals allies, if it could self heal it would be OK, as it stands it's not giving tanks what they actually need.

Simple fact is all the other splashes give something far better than what you get from a Resolve splash

Precision gives in fight sustain and bonus damage, strong utility/damage hybrid
Sorcery either gives early damage/mana or a fuckton of CDR
Domination gives Armour/Mpen/True damage and either a situational stacking rune or vision control
Inspiration gives free gold and either more free gold or CDR.
Resolve gives +8 armour/MR at a point in time when +8 armour/MR isn't really doing that much and some mid/late game HP that you need HP for anyway. As a splash Resolve is utterly abysmal.

ProfDrDeathNov 11, 20172 votes

Consider the following:

From the previous masteries, 7% total ArPen vanished with no replacement.
The base Armor increase to account for the removal of Armor seals is not affected by Last Whisper or its upgrades.
Tanks have access to 130 more HP on level 1. That's a really high amount for that level - old HP/lvl runes capped out at 216 for a full set.
Demolish takes care of a major weakness of lane tanks (tower pressure), while the bonus damage on Hunter's Talisman triggers if you have bonus HP. Resolve tree users start with bonus HP.
Most opponents go double damage masteries, rendering them effectively squishies.
Even more importantly, the removal of MPen and MR runes has an even higher impact for magic damage tanks, who previously would not rune into MPen. Thus, instead of having effectively 4 less MR against them, their opponents have 12 less MR!

PopcornBunniNov 11, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Consider the following:

From the previous masteries, 7% total ArPen vanished with no replacement.

The base Armor increase to account for the removal of Armor seals is not affected by Last Whisper or its upgrades.

Tanks have access to 130 more HP on level 1. That's a really high amount for that level - old HP/lvl runes capped out at 216 for a full set.

Demolish takes care of a major weakness of lane tanks (tower pressure), while the bonus damage on Hunter's Talisman triggers if you have bonus HP. Resolve tree users start with bonus HP.

Most opponents go double damage masteries, rendering them effectively squishies.

Even more importantly, the removal of MPen and MR runes has an even higher impact for magic damage tanks, who previously would not rune into MPen. Thus, instead of having effectively 4 less MR against them, their opponents have 12 less MR!

Consider the following:

Tanks lost out on up to 212 health at level 18 from scaling yellows
and 50 health from veteran's scars
130 Health is chump change compared to the AP, AD, and AS gold value provided to damage classes
Tanks lost 4 Armor from quints, or as much as 13 from quints assuming armor yellows
Adding on top of the gutting of tank items from the ""tank"" update, tanks have around 200 less health from items
Fearless bonus is gone
As is the passive constant 5% bonus to resistances
As are the bonus resistances while defending towers
The resistances added from aftershock are an even tradeoff at best from Courage's shield which mitigated damage entirely
The removal of MR runes means AP lanebullies like Teemo or Heimerdinger get free reign over tanks in the top who are fighting against nearly true damage from range and have nothing going into the round to counteract it

LankPantsNov 11, 20171 votes

Most opponents go double damage masteries, rendering them effectively squishies.

Think about this logically for a second, they're doing that because it's more optimal. Under the current system the damage runes are just so much stronger than durability or utility. It's more optimal to be able to go straight damage, if it wasn't you'd see a lot of people splashing Resolve which they don't. This is directly a way tanks are getting screwed.

Tanks have access to 130 more HP on level 1. That's a really high amount for that level - old HP/lvl runes capped out at 216 for a full set.

130 HP is the weakest of the bonuses. 130 HP is worth 346 gold. Comparatively Domination gives 385 gold of AD or 391 gold of AP, Precision gives 450 gold of AS and Sorcery gives either 525 gold of AD or 543 gold worth of AP. To put Resolve into the average stat range for trees you'd need to raise the HP from 130 to about 170, which would be 454 gold worth of HP.

InfernapeNov 11, 20172 votes

Just saying, Hecarim, Cho and Mundo aren't tanks. Hecarim's a fighter, Cho has a unique playstyle (sort of a mage/juggernaut hybrid thing) and Mundo is a juggernaut.

AnonagonNov 11, 20171 votes

Every time I see a post like this, I just imagine the stereotypical image of a nerd pushing up their glasses and going "Uhhhhhhh, actually...."

This shit comes up in literally every thread where anyone says the word "tank". Most players haven't read up on the subclass categorization stuff because it really doesn't matter all that much in practice. They aren't specifically referring to "true tanks" when they say tank, they mostly are just discussing champions who build 5 or 6 defensive items in general, which will inevitably include a number of juggernauts and divers, and honestly, that's fine, because those champions are important to the discussion about the state of "tanks", which is really the discussion about the state of defensive build paths.

RogueWillNov 11, 20172 votes

Kleptomany is busted. That thing gives so much gold on items. But since is quite random sometimes the impact is mild. (5 wards on a row)

Stars ShaperNov 11, 20171 votes

Taric Truly...

YoungFarmerNov 11, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Stars Shaper,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2az2jigh,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-11-11T19:32:55.603+0000)

Truly...

Taric up 1%

Stars ShaperNov 11, 20171 votes

I actually agree with you, you just missed him in the list :P

YoungFarmerNov 11, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Stars Shaper,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2az2jigh,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-11-11T19:35:49.014+0000)

I actually agree with you, you just missed him in the list :P

I edited him in there for you ;)

Stars ShaperNov 11, 20171 votes

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-I2eCsL-8_WM/WahhQnjp9OI/AAAAAAABEwg/j90w0o0fqWgU1Nc58jZNZjDO6CKOPRh-wCLcBGAs/s1600/050ea44b907a1ceb.png

DurzakaNov 11, 20171 votes

at least a third of those you listed arent even tanks dude.

YoungFarmerNov 11, 20171 votes

{quoted}

at least a third of those you listed arent even tanks dude.

alright, none the less, "tank" stats aren't as dog shit as everyone on the boards is suggesting.

EedatNov 11, 20172 votes

Only one that isnt a tank is Hecarim . Oh, and DrMundo

RalanrNov 11, 20175 votes

Arguably Cho and Singed aren’t tanks but unique playstyle champions.

Though I see Cho as an ~~abomination~~ juggernaut.

YoungFarmerNov 11, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Arguably Cho and Singed aren’t tanks but unique playstyle champions.

Though I see Cho as an ~~abomination~~ juggernaut.

I just included champs that usually were tanky aha

EedatNov 11, 20171 votes

Well we could also argue that they're tanks with unique playstyles. Either way, Singed and Cho both have survivability built into their kits, generally build lots of defenses, and aim to be very disruptive in teamfights.

DurzakaNov 11, 20171 votes

Cho and Singed arent Tanks either.

DragonSheaNov 11, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Only one that isnt a tank is . Oh, and

Errors have been made.

QuephaNov 11, 20171 votes

It's less "tanks are weak" and more "I don't see any tanks" because everyone is trying to see if they can 1v9 on assassins with the new runes.

Predictably, 5 squishy damage dealers vs. 5 squishy damage dealers makes for really fast, really snowbally games.

YoungFarmerNov 11, 20171 votes

{quoted}

It's less "tanks are weak" and more "I don't see any tanks" because everyone is trying to see if they can 1v9 on assassins with the new runes.

Predictably, 5 squishy damage dealers vs. 5 squishy damage dealers makes for really fast, really snowbally games.

See I feel like everythings fair now, when I play leona im tanky, but champs are actually able to kill my squishies through my locket and redemption which they couldn't do before.

Proxy345Nov 11, 20171 votes

I don't know about AP tanks right now but AD tanks definitely feel pretty good with transcendence+Titanic Hydra for alot of extra AD while stacking CDR HP items.

THE RlVER KlNGNov 11, 20171 votes

meanwhile tahm is at like 44%, galio 45%, naut 45%, voli 41%, etc etc

sure, while rammus, mao, and leo got super buffed because of stuff like aftershock, some tanks are complete shit because they were already weak before and aren't able to abuse new runes as hard as others. its a split, neither fully one way or another

GelsominoKillerNov 11, 20171 votes

Galio is very strong at the moment!

YoungFarmerNov 11, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2az2jigh,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2017-11-11T22:12:42.851+0000)

meanwhile tahm is at like 44%, galio 45%, naut 45%, voli 41%, etc etc

sure, while rammus, mao, and leo got super buffed because of stuff like aftershock, some tanks are complete shit because they were already weak before and aren't able to abuse new runes as hard as others. its a split, neither fully one way or another

There are always going to be champions with a sub 50% winrate, tahm kench is stupid when strong, and those champs can still get buffed. I'm just saying the new runes didn't just make every tank god tier trash like a lot of people are suggesting.

Subject 5Nov 11, 20171 votes

This post is misleading as hell. You can go on to look at the winrates yourself - the tanks are only significant around 15-25 minutes, the only exception I seem to see is Mundo. And you know. He's Mundo.

Orn went up in winrate early but takes a literal nosedive down, swoops up suddenly and then tanks back down. This is the case for ALL tanks, which means that ADC's become tank busters around 15-25 minutes in the game: adc's are too powerful, too quickly while negating the fact that you exist with only 10 minutes passing.

That's stupid.

Nobody wants to become obsolete.

Another thing to look at: Tanks aren't going tank runes, they're going offensive runes. Shyvana goes offensive, Mundo goes offensive-

Everybody that doesn't take a nose dive down in winrate takes offensive, those that do - like Poppy - take defensive. I see people being pissed off about tanks because they're practically useless when an adc gets 3-4 items, they hit so god damn hard it was as if they only had HP to begin with.

Violet FieldsNov 11, 20171 votes

Do you see any games lasting longer than 30 minutes? No, I don't think so.

Subject 5Nov 11, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Do you see any games lasting longer than 30 minutes? No, I don't think so.

If they surrender, no.

If they don't surrender, yes.

Daddy AntsNov 11, 20171 votes

Tanks -

Taric Leona Braum Shen Poppy Maokai Sion Ornn Malphite

Not classified as Tanks -

Singed - Specialist Hecarim - Diver Chogath - Specialist DrMundo - Juggernaut

GigglesONov 11, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Im A Cracker,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2az2jigh,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-11-11T19:31:52.617+0000)

Really because almost all of the tanks have had an increase in winrate since the new runes came out. Personally I am having great success with, leona support and thresh support. Since the new runes were released:
our fabulous boy is up 1% winrate went up 1% braums winrate went up 2.5% winrate went up like 6% winrate decreased slightly. winrate went up 5% winrate went up 1% winrate went up 4% winrate went up 3% winrate slightly decreased winrate went up 5% Winrate slightly increased Winrate went up 3%

Like IDK where you guys are getting your info from, im assuming its because you're playing a tank and getting rekt, but statistically most tanks are better now after the new runes.

Bruisers often get lumped into tanks, and bruisers/juggernauts suck dick right now.

Proxy345Nov 12, 20171 votes

AD tanks are now metagolems so they wreck face lol

LankPantsNov 12, 20171 votes

Who'd have thought letting Bruisers get 24 extra AD from Triforce/Black Cleaver/Iceborn Gauntlet/Frozen Heart and 12 extra AD from Maw/SV/Adaptive/Duskblade/Death's Dance/Warmog's could be a problem?

RenownedWheat42Nov 12, 20171 votes

I LOVE playing tanks right now, especially Shen. It feels so damn fun.

theBRODINATORNov 14, 20171 votes

I feel that mid game is where tanks are dominating right now. Early in lane against any ranged poke you lose out super easy without the resistances so you have to stack health from the runes or just pray you make it out of lane unscathed. Late game you can build 5 armor items + tabi and still be bursted in 3 autos from an adc with a few items. For lower level players (yeah I'm gold so I don't understand exactly how it is in plat and above) the games last so long cause we don't group or siege well so tanks become useless like 80% of the games I play. It's really unfun/unrewarding to try and build full tank and still get destroyed instantly. And I'm not saying they have to do damage while still being tanky or live forever. I just want to be able to get at least 2 rotations of my abilities off as J4 if I play it right, or live long enough to try and peel for my backline and maybe even make it to theirs. I don't know man, it just feels wrong being full armor Malphite and dying to ad champs instantly.